Monday, 16 January 2012 01:48
242 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter 
One of Westminster's favourite scare tactics against Scottish independence was blown out of the water yesterday by senior EU officials.
The claim that the remainder of the UK would remain within the EU but Scotland would find itself outside and have to renegotiate entry has been made by many Unionist politicians seeking to undermine Scottish confidence in independence.
However, speaking to the French news agency AFP, senior officials within the EU have said that the rump UK would find itself in an identical position to a newly independent Scotland, and that both would have to renegotiate the terms of their entry into the EU.
In an attempt to ramp up the pressure on the Scots, Unionists have claimed that Scotland's entry could be blocked by a veto from a single member state. However this was dismissed by lawyers for the EU who said an independent Scotland could be treated as one of two successor states, and that a separate seat for Edinburgh would require only a simple majority vote. No single EU member would have a veto.
A lawyer for the EU told the news agency that a deal could be "done by the [European] Council, using qualified majority voting and with the required say-so of the European Parliament."
The standard procedure for external accession candidates such as Croatia, which enters in 2013, involves the unanimous backing of all EU governments. The statement from the EU's own legal advisors make it clear that it is likely that Scotland would be treated as a successor state to a currently existing member, and not as an external candidate for membership.
In an illustration of how David Cameron's anti-EU grandstanding may have cost him dear, the lawyers noted that this advice is based upon the re-negotiation of the EU's Lisbon Treaty, an option which Mr Cameron rejected when he staged his walk out last month. Had Mr Cameron remained at the negotiating table, he may have been able to influence the attitudes of other EU leaders towards Scottish independence.
The UK's existing opt outs will also come up for discussion. EU lawyers say that there is no doubt within the EU that if the Scots vote in favour of independence, complex three-way negotiations between London, Edinburgh and Brussels will be triggered, which may alter Britain's voting clout and financial relations with the EU.
"There is a valid legal question about what 'rUK' (what remains of the United Kingdom) would have to renegotiate," said one senior EU source.
An exit from the UK for Scotland would reduce London's EU budget contributions, but also re-allocate billions of euros in the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher, which London receives each year in lieu of French and German farm aid or grants for regional development and social projects.
"All sorts of allocations that are country-based would change," the source said. "We're not talking about policy renegotiation - but a rewrite of Britain's membership."
With the Scotland home to half of all EU oil drilling platforms as well as a substantial proportion of Europe's renewable energy sources, what Alex Salmond has termed a "trillion-pound asset base", Scottish independence would have a major impact on EU energy security. One EU source said that Scottish independence would trigger "major fun and games over energy" and there is no doubt that the EU would be keen to accept an independent Scotland as a full member as soon as possible.
David Cameron now finds himself isolated within Europe, having rashly alienated potential EU allies with his intransigence over efforts to save the euro. Few EU leaders are disposed to do the Conservative leader any favours, and many will welcome the opportunity that Scottish independence brings in order to take Cameron down a peg or two. The EU is likely to look far more favourably upon a more EU positive Scotland than a deeply Euro-sceptic rump UK.
Comments
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2012-01-16 08:28
Now we are getting somewhere. I may be reading too much into it but I think Europe is getting off the fence and coming down on the side of Scotland.
It's getting more fun every day. I never expected this level of progress at this stage of the debate.
It's getting more fun every day. I never expected this level of progress at this stage of the debate.
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2012-01-16 09:48
We all had a chat about this when Cameron had his foot stamping exercise, I think consensus was this may be the fallout scenario at the time. Well its coming to a head now!
In an illustration of how David Cameron's anti-EU grandstanding may have cost him dear, the lawyers noted that this advice is based upon the re-negotiation of the EU's Lisbon Treaty, an option which Mr Cameron rejected when he staged his walk out last month. Had Mr Cameron remained at the negotiating table, he may have been able to influence the attitudes of other EU leaders towards Scottish independence.
This section kind of sticks out a bit! :0)
In an illustration of how David Cameron's anti-EU grandstanding may have cost him dear, the lawyers noted that this advice is based upon the re-negotiation of the EU's Lisbon Treaty, an option which Mr Cameron rejected when he staged his walk out last month. Had Mr Cameron remained at the negotiating table, he may have been able to influence the attitudes of other EU leaders towards Scottish independence.
This section kind of sticks out a bit! :0)
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2012-01-16 18:42
The trouble is, this is one more way in which Scottish independence will disadvantage rUK. So one more reason to spur the unionists on to scupper a yes vote by fair means or foul.
Or maybe they're already maxed out in that department and can't go any further.
Or maybe they're already maxed out in that department and can't go any further.
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2012-01-17 06:56
Hi Soixante-neuf
Spooky! I posted similar thoughts below and in the article Referendum Puts Scotland in Global Spotlight. Its not just me then. They do appear to be maxing out column space in negative viewpoints. The problem they are having seems to be the ability to shock and awe. Its been such a deluge of negativity that its become another ho hum story.
I genuinely think that the electorate are sick to the back teeth of being told 'NO YOU CAN'T'. We're gaining confidence along with aspiration.
Or to put it simply, we believe in Nae Limits.
Spooky! I posted similar thoughts below and in the article Referendum Puts Scotland in Global Spotlight. Its not just me then. They do appear to be maxing out column space in negative viewpoints. The problem they are having seems to be the ability to shock and awe. Its been such a deluge of negativity that its become another ho hum story.
I genuinely think that the electorate are sick to the back teeth of being told 'NO YOU CAN'T'. We're gaining confidence along with aspiration.
Or to put it simply, we believe in Nae Limits.
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2012-01-16 10:54
These things tend to work that way. From nothing much happening to a landslide in a flash. The SNP has always said that Scotish people are already members of the EU and would continue as such. What has not been generally recognized is that after Scotland divorces England and leaves the Parliament of the UK of GB & NI then that parliament ceases to exist. With the Treaty of Union gone things must revert to the Status Quo before the treaty was ratified. That is that the English Parliament, which then included Wales, as the English Principality, and all Ireland as it was then. I'm sure Wales, The Republic of Ireland and the Province of Ulster will have something to say on that issue but it does not concern Scotland. The funny part is that as England does not have a properly elected parliament of her own the EU, UN, NATO and the rest of the World's countries will have nothing to make deals with. After all Westminster is the UK parliament and not the English Parliament. No one has been elected as an English Parliament MP, so there are no legally elected representatives of the English people. However, as England is a constiututional monarchy, Her Majesty must then invite someome, (and she cannot be legally advised by an official of the now defunct United Kingdom Civil Service), to form, "Her Majesty's English Government". Good grief she could choose Oor Eck if she wanted to. After all he IS the best qualified man for the job. There is a precedence for Scots, Welsh and Irish members of the UK goverenment running her UK goverenment and they are all equal as her majesty is monarch of them all. You coulldn't make it up.
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2012-01-16 11:32
The real European position on Scotland became evident a few weeks ago after Cameron's hissy fit in Brussels when Alyn Smith SNP MEP made a statement in the European Parliament about how it was time for Scottish independence. It brought warm applause from around the chamber and some even stood and turned towards him while they did so.
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2012-01-16 11:59
I feel a bit sorry for the English people, I think the anti-Euro position is played up in English politics. Most folk just want to get on with things and sort the mess out. Much of the negative opinion is formed from daily mail type reporting which lets face it; is never ever a good thing.
I think the EU and the Euro zone is a total mess but I also think we can't try and exist completely indepedent from it.
I think the EU and the Euro zone is a total mess but I also think we can't try and exist completely indepedent from it.
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2012-01-16 08:37
Indeed we are clootie.
I expect the Tory rebels will see this as a perfect way of getting RUK out of Europe and support independence for Scotland.
It's all fun and games now.
I expect the Tory rebels will see this as a perfect way of getting RUK out of Europe and support independence for Scotland.
It's all fun and games now.
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2012-01-16 09:02
Another one bites the dust. Like Clootie, I think that Europe is already making its mind up - after all, they can see who's going to end up with the vast majority of the oil, fishing groounds, etc., etc. All of which will become serious bargaining chips at a later date should we decide to join the EU, or whether EFTA is sufficient for our needs.
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2012-01-16 14:58
I think we should avoid the EU... EFTA is sufficient.
Also think we should have a serious look at a finance system as portrayed here:
www.youtube.com/.../
Also think we should have a serious look at a finance system as portrayed here:
www.youtube.com/.../
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2012-01-16 09:12
Have I got it wrong? There will be no UK left when we leave, Scotland and the English kingdoms united = UK. Northern Ireland is not a kingdom, neither is Wales. Am I missing something? The UK will dissolve but the British Isles will remain.
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2012-01-16 09:51
Correct, there shouldnt be a UK left, as it was the Treaty of Union 1706 between the Kingdoms of Scotland and England that formed the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
Wales is included within England under that Treaty as it was incorporated long before the union was formed.
Ireland was a Kingdom, but was always treated seperately. Then it was divided into 2 provinces.
It was King James VI that thought up the title of Great Britain,but was ignored by both parliaments.It wasnt officially used until the treaty.
The English and the unionists try to argue that there would still be a UK left nd some even argue that the union jack will still fly. But you cant have a united of 1 singe Kngdom and a province.
Wales is included within England under that Treaty as it was incorporated long before the union was formed.
Ireland was a Kingdom, but was always treated seperately. Then it was divided into 2 provinces.
It was King James VI that thought up the title of Great Britain,but was ignored by both parliaments.It wasnt officially used until the treaty.
The English and the unionists try to argue that there would still be a UK left nd some even argue that the union jack will still fly. But you cant have a united of 1 singe Kngdom and a province.
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2012-01-16 10:58
Spot on! The confusion comes form the English belief that the UK is really just greater England.
I would call the UK less Scotland it the Former United Kingdom (FUK).Do you think that would fly?
I would call the UK less Scotland it the Former United Kingdom (FUK).Do you think that would fly?
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2012-01-16 11:00
Quoting Siôn Jones:
No but I'd have endless fun laughing about it!
Spot on! The confusion comes form the English belief that the UK is really just greater England.
I would call the UK less Scotland it the Former United Kingdom (FUK).Do you think that would fly?
No but I'd have endless fun laughing about it!
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2012-01-16 11:59
Quoting maisiedotts:
So would I. It would illustrate the way we feel about the unionists' dirty tricks.
Quoting Siôn Jones:Spot on! The confusion comes form the English belief that the UK is really just greater England.
I would call the UK less Scotland it the Former United Kingdom (FUK).Do you think that would fly?
No but I'd have endless fun laughing about it!
So would I. It would illustrate the way we feel about the unionists' dirty tricks.
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2012-01-16 19:04
A spoof competition in the Herald years ago (Tom Shields diary) had the winning entry - Waningland.
Work it out.
Work it out.
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2012-01-16 13:38
Smokey, Ireland is divded into four provinces, Northern Ireland, which is the excuse for the harp on the royal arms, is only two thirds of one province!
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2012-01-16 11:13
You have got some of it wrong. Wales is not a kingdom but it is a principality with the Monarch's first born made Prince of Wales and wearing the Welsh Crown. However, as The Price of Wales is a subject, (vassal), of his mother Queen Elizabeth II, then Wales is under the English Crown. Pre- UK all Ireland fell under the English crown. However, since then we had the Irish Free State, that made Southern Ireland Dominion of the United Kingdom. They became a republic and independent while Ulster opted to remain a Province of the United Kingdom. I imagine Scotland could claim a bit of it as it was a UK province not an English one. The British Isles will indeed remain as will Great Britain, The Great in that term simply means the main Island of the British archipelago. Hence the term Great Britain and Northern Ireland being used to distinguish that area from the entire archipelago of the mainland, the island of Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. So Great Britain is a geographic term but the United Kingdom is a political term. Even so The United Kingdom will continue as we will all remain thus as long as we retain the Monarch. The confusion is caused by the lazy use of, "The United Kingdom", instead of the correct term for, "The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland". There was a United Kingdom in 1603 but no UK parliament until 1707, 103 years with a common monarch before ONLY Scotland & England united their parliaments. 103 years with an independent Scotland and an independent England, (that included Wales and Ireland), with a common monarch.
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2012-01-16 19:33
Once again I dispute your use of the term "united kingdom" for the two countries sharing a monarch. They will be united kingdomS, not a united kingdom, just as they were before 1707. If it comes to that, even the term united kingdoms wouldn't be very accurate as they'll be kingdoms with a shared monarch, nothing more. "United" would indicate some sort of union, and there needn't be one.
There's no reason we couldn't be like Canada or Australia; sharing the same monarch but having no other significant political connection.
There's no reason we couldn't be like Canada or Australia; sharing the same monarch but having no other significant political connection.
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2012-01-17 03:27
You've made me join newsnet just to point out that you're completely wrong regarding Wales being a principality. It is NOT a principality.
Read this
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
and this
.../wales-is-a-country-not-a-principality-official
before you insult us.
“The Principality of Wales existed only between 1216 and 1542 and its area was significantly different to that of modernWales. I was also concerned that noting Wales as a principality may lead people to believe that the Prince of Wales may have some constitutional role inWales, or thatWales' status could be considered to be less than that of the countries ofScotland orEngland.”
Read this
walesonline.co.uk/.../...
and this
.../wales-is-a-country-not-a-principality-official
before you insult us.
“The Principality of Wales existed only between 1216 and 1542 and its area was significantly different to that of modernWales. I was also concerned that noting Wales as a principality may lead people to believe that the Prince of Wales may have some constitutional role inWales, or thatWales' status could be considered to be less than that of the countries ofScotland orEngland.”
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2012-01-16 09:14
With the wonderful relationship Cameron has carved out for himself in Europe (EU), he has very few friends left, if any ?.
It is the international dimension to Scots self-determination which will be the clincher for us. Sadly, this is the SNP's weak area and they need to get up to speed quickly when there is so much implied goodwill heading in our direction.
England and Scotland will be in exactly the same boat when the Union between Scotland and England is disolved. Both would have to re-apply for membership as seperate countrys. Scotland would be well advised simply not to make the request.
That is SDA policy and one I endorse.
It is the international dimension to Scots self-determination which will be the clincher for us. Sadly, this is the SNP's weak area and they need to get up to speed quickly when there is so much implied goodwill heading in our direction.
England and Scotland will be in exactly the same boat when the Union between Scotland and England is disolved. Both would have to re-apply for membership as seperate countrys. Scotland would be well advised simply not to make the request.
That is SDA policy and one I endorse.
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2012-01-16 09:23
Sorta of topic, but speaking about Europe, I posted this on Labour Hame just now but not sure if they will mod it out.
"Was told this by an English friend the other day.
If the uk government would tax the financial transactions in the city of London by just one percent of one percent, our national debt would be cleared within two years !!!
After this we could then invest these billions of pounds into Schools Hospitals Infrastructure etc creating thousands and thousands of jobs.
Think about that the next time you hear some Labour Party spokeman claiming they want a ‘fairer and more just society’ or ‘want to concentrate on improving schools hospitals’ bla bla bla.
ONE PERCENT OF ONE FLIPPING PERCENT !!!
Where have the Labour party been when they were holding the purse strings as working class communities have lived in abject poverty ?
Where were the Scottish Labour party MP’s as child poverty in Glasgow was the worse in the Uk as the fat cats in the city rakes in there billions, tax free ?
This is why David Cameron used his ‘Veto’ recently, because the Europeans wanted a regulation that would have threatened this cosy little deal with successive Westminster governments and the city of London.
You have been conned Duncan, they have the money to do all the things you want, they just don’t want to."
"Was told this by an English friend the other day.
If the uk government would tax the financial transactions in the city of London by just one percent of one percent, our national debt would be cleared within two years !!!
After this we could then invest these billions of pounds into Schools Hospitals Infrastructure etc creating thousands and thousands of jobs.
Think about that the next time you hear some Labour Party spokeman claiming they want a ‘fairer and more just society’ or ‘want to concentrate on improving schools hospitals’ bla bla bla.
ONE PERCENT OF ONE FLIPPING PERCENT !!!
Where have the Labour party been when they were holding the purse strings as working class communities have lived in abject poverty ?
Where were the Scottish Labour party MP’s as child poverty in Glasgow was the worse in the Uk as the fat cats in the city rakes in there billions, tax free ?
This is why David Cameron used his ‘Veto’ recently, because the Europeans wanted a regulation that would have threatened this cosy little deal with successive Westminster governments and the city of London.
You have been conned Duncan, they have the money to do all the things you want, they just don’t want to."
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2012-01-16 11:28
Sorry to have to tell you this but Glasgow was never the worst place for child poverty. That is just one more Britnat myth propagated to the masses. In fact there was only a very tiny area in Glasgow that had such bad child poverty. The percentage for ALL Glasgow is/was 18%. The very worst areas in the entire UK are all in the London Boroughs. Among the very worst is the City Of London, (that is the financial square mile). The figures are quite disgusting. You will find the whole UK area by area here:-
endchildpoverty.org.uk/.../...
Way over 45% in some London boroughs.
endchildpoverty.org.uk/.../...
Way over 45% in some London boroughs.
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2012-01-16 09:27
Just listening to GMS on BBC Scotland, Rifkind being given a pretty much unchallenged pop at everything, just talked about Zimbabwe using US dollars in response to G Robertson's query on Sterling. I think it would be worth dissecting as it really is him saying whatever he likes with no challenge, also said he didn't believe that the SNP had so many new members ....'they would say that wouldn't they'. Seems the editorial basis for this interview is the fact he was once a Scottish Secretary, never mind he's now an English constituency MP. Certainly worthy of complaint.
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2012-01-16 09:55
Heard that intervew as well. Gary, normally hard on SNP politicians, was a bit soft with Rifkind
Rifkind's insinuation that the pound is English should have been challenged
As the Bank of England is owned by both Scotland and England,as is the currency
Has been since the Treaty and Acts of union
Rifkind's insinuation that the pound is English should have been challenged
As the Bank of England is owned by both Scotland and England,as is the currency
Has been since the Treaty and Acts of union
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2012-01-16 12:01
Jersey and Guernsey also have devo max max, but both have their own currencies tied to the pound.
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2012-01-16 11:31
Yes he was on about that Scottish Bank that is in face a PLC registered tro pay tax to the UK treasury. He didn't mention that the actual state Bank, Bank Of England, is a nationalised UK bank and not English. Rifkind is just one more old hack, blowhard, yesterday's man.
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2012-01-16 13:26
I could hardly understand the man with that moufae o bouls. What a plonker. One of the 21st century parcel o rogues.
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2012-01-16 09:27
Hi there,
I don't think this is good news at all and you anti-EU boys have not thought it through. It was reassuring to the electorate's fears to be able to argue that Independence would make no difference to either rUK or Scotland's membership of the EU as both would automatically remain members as of right. Now we face the complication of having to counter arguments such as "What if England decides not to join." Are we back to customs posts at the border? More uncertainty makes our job more difficult.
Not only have we now to present the case for "Independence within Europe", we have to find arguments that take account of the possibility that both, one or neither of the new states join the EU.
Sorry I consider this a major set-back and nothing to celebrate.
Regards,
I don't think this is good news at all and you anti-EU boys have not thought it through. It was reassuring to the electorate's fears to be able to argue that Independence would make no difference to either rUK or Scotland's membership of the EU as both would automatically remain members as of right. Now we face the complication of having to counter arguments such as "What if England decides not to join." Are we back to customs posts at the border? More uncertainty makes our job more difficult.
Not only have we now to present the case for "Independence within Europe", we have to find arguments that take account of the possibility that both, one or neither of the new states join the EU.
Sorry I consider this a major set-back and nothing to celebrate.
Regards,
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2012-01-16 09:39
There's no customs posts between Finland and Sweden (both EU members) and Norway (not in EU).
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2012-01-16 10:05
I disagree. Sweden is in and Norway is out and they do not have closed borders or barriers to trade. It would be in all our interests to ensure that that continues whatever deal is concluded with the EU.
If we stay together and the UK has a referendum then we get pulled out regardless of out how we vote. With independence we have complete freedom to follow them out if we wish.
I do think though that despite all their sound and fury they have to stay in for the same reasons they had to join in the first place. If we stay in and they stay out then a lot of extra business will come our way. But surely that would also make them 'separatists' if they did that.
If we stay together and the UK has a referendum then we get pulled out regardless of out how we vote. With independence we have complete freedom to follow them out if we wish.
I do think though that despite all their sound and fury they have to stay in for the same reasons they had to join in the first place. If we stay in and they stay out then a lot of extra business will come our way. But surely that would also make them 'separatists' if they did that.
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2012-01-16 10:17
Hi art,
I don't think you really got where I was coming from. This development has increased the uncertainty of post-Independence membership of the EU for both the Scottish and rUK states.
Sweden and Norway might not have border posts, but as long as both Scotland and rUK remain members of the EU, border posts were a remote possibility
It is not so long ago that the border posts were removed between Eire and NI. The very suggestion that they might be instituted in "the Scottish Borders" frightens many of the horses beyond rationality.
Regards,
I don't think you really got where I was coming from. This development has increased the uncertainty of post-Independence membership of the EU for both the Scottish and rUK states.
Sweden and Norway might not have border posts, but as long as both Scotland and rUK remain members of the EU, border posts were a remote possibility
It is not so long ago that the border posts were removed between Eire and NI. The very suggestion that they might be instituted in "the Scottish Borders" frightens many of the horses beyond rationality.
Regards,
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2012-01-16 10:50
The border posts between Ireland and N.Ireland were there principally for security reasons (IRA terrorism and all that). Not because of normal border checks. That's why they had armed police at them.
Scotland would effectively stay within the EU, its just that its TERMS of membership would need negotiated.
As Scotland currently has NO TERMS of membership, that is hardly a setback.
It is a setback for David Cameron and Westminster.
Scotland would effectively stay within the EU, its just that its TERMS of membership would need negotiated.
As Scotland currently has NO TERMS of membership, that is hardly a setback.
It is a setback for David Cameron and Westminster.
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2012-01-16 11:29
Small correction, there was usually an RUC presence, but the main Republic/NI border crossings were manned by the British military.
Interestingly, in the last couple of years (I lived in The Hague), the border crossing between Belgium and France was occasionally manned by police on the French side.
Interestingly, in the last couple of years (I lived in The Hague), the border crossing between Belgium and France was occasionally manned by police on the French side.
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2012-01-16 11:05
Hi RaboRuglen,
Did you think that we would automatically become an extra star on the EU flag? These kind of things are never automatic.
I don't know what to tell you to "soothe the horses" apart from the fact that even without this issue the question of border posts would still be a possibility.
If all goes to plan and due to the retained revenue and a happier population producing a higher GDP per capita, the Scottish people will have a demonstrably higher standard of living than anywhere on the British Isles and that might create an imigration problem that would be specifically from England.
I personally welcome anyone who moves from England to help us in our country but if it became a tidal wave causing social and civic problems, it would have to be controlled. The only way to do that would be to erect border posts at each of the entry roads into Scotland.
I wouldn't imagine that this would be instigated until well after the independence of Scotland if at all.
England might do it anyway though thinking that there would be a tidal wave the opposite way.
Did you think that we would automatically become an extra star on the EU flag? These kind of things are never automatic.
I don't know what to tell you to "soothe the horses" apart from the fact that even without this issue the question of border posts would still be a possibility.
If all goes to plan and due to the retained revenue and a happier population producing a higher GDP per capita, the Scottish people will have a demonstrably higher standard of living than anywhere on the British Isles and that might create an imigration problem that would be specifically from England.
I personally welcome anyone who moves from England to help us in our country but if it became a tidal wave causing social and civic problems, it would have to be controlled. The only way to do that would be to erect border posts at each of the entry roads into Scotland.
I wouldn't imagine that this would be instigated until well after the independence of Scotland if at all.
England might do it anyway though thinking that there would be a tidal wave the opposite way.
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2012-01-16 12:07
The difference is that the people of Scotland, (not just the Scots born), would have Scottish passports and Scottish NHS data and Scottish tax numbers, et al.Anyone entering the country after that would require a Scottish visa if they wanted any of the benefits, jobs, houses, et al, that were rightfully Scottish. They would not be issued to scrounging foreigners from England or elsewhere.
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2012-01-16 12:32
Quoting Auld Bob:
Agreed. I worry about a huge influx of "economic migrants" from the south who want free tuition for their kids, free prscriptions for themselves,and free care for their elderly parents.
Anyone entering the country .. would not be issued to scrounging foreigners from England or elsewhere.
Agreed. I worry about a huge influx of "economic migrants" from the south who want free tuition for their kids, free prscriptions for themselves,and free care for their elderly parents.
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2012-01-16 11:05
Sorry I can't agree. In the late 60's I travelled right round Ireland and there were NO border posts or passports required. The border posts were introduced during the troubles to prevent movement of terrorist weapons etc. Nothing to do with EU or movement of citizens of Europe or UK.
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2012-01-16 12:34
[quote name="maisiedotts"]Sorry I can't agree. In the late 60's I travelled right round Ireland and there were NO border posts or passports required.
In 1965 there were manned border posts !
I know I went through them a couple of times.
In 1965 there were manned border posts !
I know I went through them a couple of times.
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2012-01-16 11:56
The article is slightly wrong. While it accepts that Scotland would be accepted AND the rest of the United Kingdom, it fails to understand that there can be no rump UK when the Status Quo pre Treaty of Union cuts in. If there is no longer a United Kingdom then there is no legal UK parliament at Westminster. Now Westminster is not the elected English Parliament so there is no properly elected English Goverenment for either Europe or the rest of the World to deal with. The elected Westminster members of parliament may represent a constituence in England but they are not members of an English Parliament. There is no English Parliament. this is the real meat in, "The West Lothian Question". It is why members, (whatever their birthplace) from Scots, Welsh and Irish constituencies have the duty to vote on all Westminster matters. There are no England only questions. Just consider this, Winston Churchill once represented a Dundee constituency. Kind of puts the West Lothian Question in its place. No matter how hard they try there is no such thing as an English Parliament and thus all Westminster matters must officially be United Kingdom matters. So no UK parliament also means no English Parliament. No English Parliament meand no English civil Service. No English civil service means no one to advise her majesty and no where for foreign peoples to deal with England. Not until her majesty calls in someone to form Her Majesty's English Parliament as the one they have now is Her Majesty's United Kingdom Parliament and cannot legally represent England alone.
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2012-01-16 15:55
Can't see it working like that in rerality, Auld Bob. They'd just carry on without batting an eyelid, same as they did in 1707.
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2012-01-16 10:25
RaboRuglen
I am very pro-Europe and at one time a great supporter of the EU. Howvever I am also a great supporter of democracy. The direction of the EU has recently drifted towards actions which in my view are undemocratic.
Do not confuse pro-European and pro-democracy with being willing to accept anything passed down.
I would like to be in a European union but I am concerned with the current direction of travel.
I am very pro-Europe and at one time a great supporter of the EU. Howvever I am also a great supporter of democracy. The direction of the EU has recently drifted towards actions which in my view are undemocratic.
Do not confuse pro-European and pro-democracy with being willing to accept anything passed down.
I would like to be in a European union but I am concerned with the current direction of travel.
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2012-01-16 11:08
I agree with that, and this of course will be subject to another referendum further down the road as I understand it.
Let's get Independence first.
Let's get Independence first.
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2012-01-16 12:14
You do realise there is a larger and more loose European community, don't you?
Look at, for example, the Schengen Accord.
The EU is not the whole of Europe by any means. I think what you seem to favour is a European free trade organization. That does already exist and is larger than the EU.
Look at, for example, the Schengen Accord.
The EU is not the whole of Europe by any means. I think what you seem to favour is a European free trade organization. That does already exist and is larger than the EU.
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2012-01-16 10:38
Hi RaboRuglen, what the author is saying here is that it would be a "rubber stamp" process for Scotland due to our resources and good relations with the EU members.
If England at that point (whether they could join due to a bit of a tiff with the EU) decided to back away from the EU, it would make no difference and border posts would only be necessary if Scotland or England wished to erect them. The question of goods flowing in or out of an EU state to or from a non-EU state would only have made a difference under the present VAT system. I'm sure that someone in the media pack will construct a real cracker of an awkward question regarding this to have a go but in the grand scale of things I think that if we dont turn this bit of news to our benefit we'd be missing an open goal.
I think this is brilliant news and will make best use of it. We're moving forward as never before. Plus this wont be the only input that the EU are responsible for, it's early days.(:D)
If England at that point (whether they could join due to a bit of a tiff with the EU) decided to back away from the EU, it would make no difference and border posts would only be necessary if Scotland or England wished to erect them. The question of goods flowing in or out of an EU state to or from a non-EU state would only have made a difference under the present VAT system. I'm sure that someone in the media pack will construct a real cracker of an awkward question regarding this to have a go but in the grand scale of things I think that if we dont turn this bit of news to our benefit we'd be missing an open goal.
I think this is brilliant news and will make best use of it. We're moving forward as never before. Plus this wont be the only input that the EU are responsible for, it's early days.(:D)
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2012-01-16 10:52
I agree SG, I think the important word to pick out of the statement is renegotiate. They're not saying we'd be pitched out on our ear merely that new terms would have to be drawn.
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2012-01-16 11:39
I don't really see what the problem is, this is the position many of us thought actually was the case under the Vienna Convention.
I believe it's articles 17 and 34 that cover the 'clean slate doctrine', allowing a successor state to choose to be bound by treaties entered into previously by the parent state, where the successor state may or may not have had a say in the original negotiations.
That it is necessary to 're-negotiate' the terms of Scotland's membership is hardly a bad thing, as the current negotiated settlement benefits the City and if anything, is harmful to Scottish interests, particularly agriculture and fishing. There's a document over at SDA somewhere that outlines Scotland's losses due to EU membership under the current terms; it makes for some painful reading.
All in all, it's not a bad state of affairs, especially when you factor in the importance of energy security and Scotland's resources. In short, we're in a corker of a bargaining position.
I believe it's articles 17 and 34 that cover the 'clean slate doctrine', allowing a successor state to choose to be bound by treaties entered into previously by the parent state, where the successor state may or may not have had a say in the original negotiations.
That it is necessary to 're-negotiate' the terms of Scotland's membership is hardly a bad thing, as the current negotiated settlement benefits the City and if anything, is harmful to Scottish interests, particularly agriculture and fishing. There's a document over at SDA somewhere that outlines Scotland's losses due to EU membership under the current terms; it makes for some painful reading.
All in all, it's not a bad state of affairs, especially when you factor in the importance of energy security and Scotland's resources. In short, we're in a corker of a bargaining position.
#
2012-01-16 11:39
Oh! Get real. Go look at a map of the countries signed up to the Schengen Accord. You will finda map here -
en.wikipedia.org/.../....
Sorry it is Wiki but the map is correct.
You will note that the only major country, (they are not all EU countries either), not signed up is the UK. Now picture that map with Scotland signed up to Schengen Accord and England NOT signed up. Makes Little Englanders look exactly what they are. Little and isolated from everyone else of note.
en.wikipedia.org/.../....
Sorry it is Wiki but the map is correct.
You will note that the only major country, (they are not all EU countries either), not signed up is the UK. Now picture that map with Scotland signed up to Schengen Accord and England NOT signed up. Makes Little Englanders look exactly what they are. Little and isolated from everyone else of note.
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2012-01-16 20:08
Don't forget the Irish Republic, it's not a member either. It makes some sense for islands to have border controls while land-locked countries don't.
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2012-01-16 14:49
Quite regardless of whether both are designated successor states or not the situation is, and always has been this.
Both parts will still be treaty holders. Both would have to negotiate with the EU if they decide to stay in and both would have to negotiate with the EU if they decide to leave.
For staying in, discussions on budget fishing rights etc. will have to be undertaken. i.e. both Scotland and the rUK will have to have their budgetary contribution calculated separately for example, again regardless of status semantics purely for pragmatic reasons.
Either can now leave unilaterally, effectively without negotiation, but only after 1 year of failed negotiations if no agreement is reached. This has only applied since Lisbon (edited).
Both parts will still be treaty holders. Both would have to negotiate with the EU if they decide to stay in and both would have to negotiate with the EU if they decide to leave.
For staying in, discussions on budget fishing rights etc. will have to be undertaken. i.e. both Scotland and the rUK will have to have their budgetary contribution calculated separately for example, again regardless of status semantics purely for pragmatic reasons.
Either can now leave unilaterally, effectively without negotiation, but only after 1 year of failed negotiations if no agreement is reached. This has only applied since Lisbon (edited).
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2012-01-16 09:51
A classic comment from AS on the interview with Isobel Fraser: "I don't know what George Osborne's degree was in, but it certainly wasn't economics".
A quick search on Google reveals it was in Modern History. His early employment was entering the names of people who had died into a National Health Service computer (was just wondering if they voted after that..), followed by a job at Selfridge's re-folding towels (note - not folding them, just re-folding them). However, he moved from that straight to Conservative Central Office.
Now, who would you trust on the economy?
A quick search on Google reveals it was in Modern History. His early employment was entering the names of people who had died into a National Health Service computer (was just wondering if they voted after that..), followed by a job at Selfridge's re-folding towels (note - not folding them, just re-folding them). However, he moved from that straight to Conservative Central Office.
Now, who would you trust on the economy?
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2012-01-16 10:11
It reminds me a bit of the Asda shelf stacker, Andy Hornby, who became a boss at the Bank of Scotland, later went to Boots, but now finds his right job at Coral bookmakers.
For Osborne and others, Westminster is just a stepping stone on the career path to a big job in the city, possibly with a sideline that has ermine robes and expenses thrown in.
For Osborne and others, Westminster is just a stepping stone on the career path to a big job in the city, possibly with a sideline that has ermine robes and expenses thrown in.
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2012-01-16 14:27
Careful there farrochie, Osborne is already a a Lord in waiting
Osborne is part of the old Anglo-Irish aristocracy, known in Ireland as the Ascendancy. He is the heir to the Osborne baronetcy (of Ballentaylor, in County Tipperary, and Ballylemon, in County Waterford).
He is also possibly not domiciled in the UK.
He has a substantial trust fund and after the Tories won the Wastemonster election, he was subject to a lot of speculation re his domicility. I am not sure if it ever was resolved, publically anyway. I can find no evidence of it on the web. Maybe it was resolved?
Osborne is part of the old Anglo-Irish aristocracy, known in Ireland as the Ascendancy. He is the heir to the Osborne baronetcy (of Ballentaylor, in County Tipperary, and Ballylemon, in County Waterford).
He is also possibly not domiciled in the UK.
He has a substantial trust fund and after the Tories won the Wastemonster election, he was subject to a lot of speculation re his domicility. I am not sure if it ever was resolved, publically anyway. I can find no evidence of it on the web. Maybe it was resolved?
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2012-01-16 15:08
[quote name="km"]A classic comment from AS on the interview with Isobel Fraser: "I don't know what George Osborne's degree was in, but it certainly wasn't economics". quote]
That was a good one - and -
I loved her question to M. Moore when she said something to the effect that "the referendem decisions
were above his pay grade".
That was a good one - and -
I loved her question to M. Moore when she said something to the effect that "the referendem decisions
were above his pay grade".
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2012-01-16 15:13
So after Clegg's "We need a John Lewis" model for the economy, will George O be recommending a Selfridges one? Perhaps refolding money which has been laundered through yet another mega-overfunded project in the SE (not subsidising the SE you understand?).
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2012-01-16 09:53
All the bullying and manipulation backfires on them.
They seem to forget that the £ is ours aswell as theirs etc etc.
They seem to forget that the £ is ours aswell as theirs etc etc.
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2012-01-16 09:56
Another myth bites the dust! Each scare story is being picked apart in turn. They'll be running out soon of unchallenged myths.
So far this past week:
Challenge to Scots control and legality of the referendum
Currency Why the pound and who could stop it?
Inward investment scare stories blown out of the water by the FMs middle east exploits and the new £5bil offshore investments
What do you think happens when they have none left?
So far this past week:
Challenge to Scots control and legality of the referendum
Currency Why the pound and who could stop it?
Inward investment scare stories blown out of the water by the FMs middle east exploits and the new £5bil offshore investments
What do you think happens when they have none left?
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2012-01-16 13:38
Hee Hee Hee! Looks like they've passed Groundhog Day and are now entering GroundDOWN Day!!
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2012-01-16 15:18
Ye huv tae ask, how much mair punishment ur they willing tae tek?
The past fortnight has been an absolute nightmare for them. Still so long as they are up for being slapped down on every story they release, I'm sure the SG are more than up for doing the slapping. :0)
The past fortnight has been an absolute nightmare for them. Still so long as they are up for being slapped down on every story they release, I'm sure the SG are more than up for doing the slapping. :0)
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2012-01-16 15:53
Lets nae get to excited folks, we cannae relax till it's over, to do so would condem our kids and there's, so lets hae a wee laugh but keep the nut bolted tightly down
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2012-01-16 20:33
Quoting Auld Bob:
..and on Saturdays too.
(sorry0
The same as now - they lie to all and sundry.
..and on Saturdays too.
(sorry0
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2012-01-16 09:57
Quoting km:
Haha... if he had entered the names and they were still voting, must have learnt that from the 'Scottish' Labour party!
A classic comment from AS on the interview with Isobel Fraser: "I don't know what George Osborne's degree was in, but it certainly wasn't economics".
A quick search on Google reveals it was in Modern History. His early employment was entering the names of people who had died into a National Health Service computer (was just wondering if they voted after that..), followed by a job at Selfridge's re-folding towels (note - not folding them, just re-folding them). However, he moved from that straight to Conservative Central Office.
Now, who would you trust on the economy?
Haha... if he had entered the names and they were still voting, must have learnt that from the 'Scottish' Labour party!
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2012-01-16 12:15
"I don't know what George Osborne's degree was in, but it certainly wasn't economics".
I'm am prepared to bet that AS knew exactly about Osborne's degree but, by feigning not to know, will provoke more people to look it up.
He is a master!
I'm am prepared to bet that AS knew exactly about Osborne's degree but, by feigning not to know, will provoke more people to look it up.
He is a master!
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2012-01-16 10:27
"owever, speaking to the French news agency AFP, senior officials within the EU have said that the rump UK would find itself in an identical position to a newly independent Scotland, and that both would have to renegotiate the terms of their entry into the EU. "
Do you have a link or source for that, Newsnet? The EU argument comes up very frequently on Guardian article comments (and other papers), and it would be handy to have a link to to original source.
Thanks.
Jake
Do you have a link or source for that, Newsnet? The EU argument comes up very frequently on Guardian article comments (and other papers), and it would be handy to have a link to to original source.
Thanks.
Jake
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2012-01-16 10:32
The Great in Great Britain is a geographical term to differentiate between the British archipelago and lesser Britain, Brittany. It has nothing to do with politics.
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2012-01-16 10:55
Europe understands bi-lateral and international treaties much better than Westminster, has dealt with several such treaties in recent years, and has observed many over the decades.
Europe will readily understand the position of the treaty of union, and the rights accorded to each of the contracting parties.
Europe will have no difficulty with one party wanting to terminate the treaty, and will have little sympathy for an institution set up under that treaty (in this case Westminster) that tries to usurp the interests of a contracting party.
Europe will readily understand the position of the treaty of union, and the rights accorded to each of the contracting parties.
Europe will have no difficulty with one party wanting to terminate the treaty, and will have little sympathy for an institution set up under that treaty (in this case Westminster) that tries to usurp the interests of a contracting party.
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2012-01-16 11:05
Jake62 2012-01-16 09:27 :Try this link...........
UK faces EU re-negotiation if Scotland breaks away. tinyurl.com/7dvg53p
or search:- UK faces EU re-negotiation if Scotland breaks away.
UK faces EU re-negotiation if Scotland breaks away. tinyurl.com/7dvg53p
or search:- UK faces EU re-negotiation if Scotland breaks away.
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2012-01-16 11:25
Fellow posters need to be aware that the EU is already preparing legislation to enable it to take over regulating the oil and gas industry and it is expected that this will lead to it also wanting to centralise licensing and harmonise taxation.
This would not be good news for the oil/gas industry and if Scotland was independent would mean us handing over effective control of the N Sea and W of Shetland provinces to Brussels.
I don't think we want that do we?
This would not be good news for the oil/gas industry and if Scotland was independent would mean us handing over effective control of the N Sea and W of Shetland provinces to Brussels.
I don't think we want that do we?
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2012-01-16 11:50
Hi Wee-Scamp,
I think the main point here is that we would take a breath before pursuing any possible entry as a member of the EU and that wouldn't happen on day one of independence.
Being independent will give us the choice, whereas at present we have no choice. If westminster decided to pull out of the EU then Scotland as part of the UK at present would go with it.
I understand your very real misgivings regarding it but I think we've got to use the positive side of this story in that now as opposed to what the unionist politicians have been shouting at us, it would almost be a rubber stamping excercise to join as a member state if that's what we wanted which is the total opposite of what westminster was saying.
I think the main point here is that we would take a breath before pursuing any possible entry as a member of the EU and that wouldn't happen on day one of independence.
Being independent will give us the choice, whereas at present we have no choice. If westminster decided to pull out of the EU then Scotland as part of the UK at present would go with it.
I understand your very real misgivings regarding it but I think we've got to use the positive side of this story in that now as opposed to what the unionist politicians have been shouting at us, it would almost be a rubber stamping excercise to join as a member state if that's what we wanted which is the total opposite of what westminster was saying.
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2012-01-16 12:05
That's exactly right. But it's important people understand the pros and cons and in that regard there has to be a proper debate over EU membership.
The oil and gas story is definitely a "con" but then so are the fishing and agricultural stories.
The oil and gas story is definitely a "con" but then so are the fishing and agricultural stories.
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2012-01-16 12:36
They can draw up what they like. If things don't suit Scotland then there are many other organizations that can be joined. There is also a case for a vibrant independent Scotland to negotiate an Independent North Sea States Union. That would frighten the pants of tthe European Union, the English and quite a few others as well. Just think about it. The Nations that border on the oil, gas and renewable resources of the North Sea in one strong united group -
www.yourchildlearns.com/.../
Think of it, Scotland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Iceland with all the oil, gas, wind, wave, tidal and fisheries, etc. A very powerful and resource rich union. Why, we could even let England join as a junior partner.Remember also that eacxh of those countries has borders on other resources.
www.yourchildlearns.com/.../
Think of it, Scotland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Iceland with all the oil, gas, wind, wave, tidal and fisheries, etc. A very powerful and resource rich union. Why, we could even let England join as a junior partner.Remember also that eacxh of those countries has borders on other resources.
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2012-01-16 13:30
Wee-Scamp; you're right, we should be worried about the EU.
At the moment its a disintegrating ping pong ball being batted all over by the financial overlords.
It's undemocratic and, even as a kleptocracy, its incompetence allows hundreds of millions of Euro's to be filtered into the hands of the Mafia in Southern Italy. Who would want to be a party to an organisation which couldn't account for its expenditure when its only source of revenue is the fees it extracts from its member states?
As a supporter of democracy I can only hope, for now, Salmond, like a canny general, is maintaining a position that doesn't require him to fight on more than one front.
If I'm correct and the issue of EU membership post independence is put to a national referendum and the people vote to join, then as a democrat I'll have to accept that position. But until such time I'll fervently hope membership is an offer we handsomely refuse.
At the moment its a disintegrating ping pong ball being batted all over by the financial overlords.
It's undemocratic and, even as a kleptocracy, its incompetence allows hundreds of millions of Euro's to be filtered into the hands of the Mafia in Southern Italy. Who would want to be a party to an organisation which couldn't account for its expenditure when its only source of revenue is the fees it extracts from its member states?
As a supporter of democracy I can only hope, for now, Salmond, like a canny general, is maintaining a position that doesn't require him to fight on more than one front.
If I'm correct and the issue of EU membership post independence is put to a national referendum and the people vote to join, then as a democrat I'll have to accept that position. But until such time I'll fervently hope membership is an offer we handsomely refuse.
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2012-01-16 11:38
LOL. It seems we have friends on the continent.
With the second largest oil & gas resources in Europe and 25% of Europe's renewable electricity potential, methinks wee Scotland has a big bargaining chip... folk should not worry themselves about the EU and our relationship too it; Scotland is too valuable to be bullied in any way. For example the Germans are after our green power (bypassing the RUK via the Scotland-Norway interconnector - we provide the wind power, Norway helps us store that by hydro pumped storage)...
With the second largest oil & gas resources in Europe and 25% of Europe's renewable electricity potential, methinks wee Scotland has a big bargaining chip... folk should not worry themselves about the EU and our relationship too it; Scotland is too valuable to be bullied in any way. For example the Germans are after our green power (bypassing the RUK via the Scotland-Norway interconnector - we provide the wind power, Norway helps us store that by hydro pumped storage)...
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2012-01-16 12:51
Don't get me wrong...
My point is Scotland can 'turn off the (gas + oil) taps' and increasingly 'turn out the lights'. Just like the russians... so bullying an independent Scotland would not be a good idea. The EU needs Scotland much more than Scotland needs the EU.
My point is Scotland can 'turn off the (gas + oil) taps' and increasingly 'turn out the lights'. Just like the russians... so bullying an independent Scotland would not be a good idea. The EU needs Scotland much more than Scotland needs the EU.
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2012-01-16 11:44
OT.
I see the SNP have another 318 new members from the weekend. That's over 1000 in a week or one every 10 minutes!
I see the SNP have another 318 new members from the weekend. That's over 1000 in a week or one every 10 minutes!
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2012-01-16 11:48
Is that The Party or "Followers" on facetwitterbebo book feeds ? If we really do have that level of active recruitment then its Brown Trousers Time at Unionist Central.
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2012-01-16 11:51
Zed
Don't tell M.Rifkind as he doesn't believe a word of it , so he said (along with a lot more)on GMS Needless to say his rants went unchallenged Gary is definitely not up to speed as an interviewer Too busy watching the tennis to be paying attention to what he is being paid to do probably
Don't tell M.Rifkind as he doesn't believe a word of it , so he said (along with a lot more)on GMS Needless to say his rants went unchallenged Gary is definitely not up to speed as an interviewer Too busy watching the tennis to be paying attention to what he is being paid to do probably
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2012-01-16 13:44
We really need a daily figure of new SNP joins plus a chart, annotated to reflect the foot in mouth effect of wastemonster's latest pronouncements.
Anyone?
Anyone?
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2012-01-16 11:46
I'll probably open a can of worms, but I do believe that the SNP's attitude to the EU (not Europe) could be its Achilles heel.
Why get Independence and then "negotiate" it away ?
Why get Independence and then "negotiate" it away ?
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2012-01-16 12:25
I take the view that at this moment in time, we are in the EU. A yes to independence will mean renegotiation which gives us an opportunity, if you trust the SNP Gov with a yes to independence, surely its not a huge stretch to trust them with the EU issue?
Also, and for me this is important. The Holyrood parliament is far more accessable generally. Its just too easy for Westminster to be aloof and clam up in that way it does, I don't think they'd get away with it at Holyrood so easily.
Also, and for me this is important. The Holyrood parliament is far more accessable generally. Its just too easy for Westminster to be aloof and clam up in that way it does, I don't think they'd get away with it at Holyrood so easily.
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2012-01-16 14:31
# pa_broon74 2012-01-16 11:25
Also, and for me this is important. The Holyrood parliament is far more accessable generally. Its just too easy for Westminster to be aloof and clam up in that way it does, I don't think they'd get away with it at Holyrood so easily.
==================================
Yes indeed :
The 'I knew yer faither' certainly keeps their feet on the ground and rightly so!
Generally people who live beside you will do their best for you when elected.
Ehm! I will include some labour councillors in that remark but not all.
Also, and for me this is important. The Holyrood parliament is far more accessable generally. Its just too easy for Westminster to be aloof and clam up in that way it does, I don't think they'd get away with it at Holyrood so easily.
==================================
Yes indeed :
The 'I knew yer faither' certainly keeps their feet on the ground and rightly so!
Generally people who live beside you will do their best for you when elected.
Ehm! I will include some labour councillors in that remark but not all.
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2012-01-16 12:43
Quoting Aucheorn:
I have much more confidence in any SNP led negotiations with the EU, than I have in UK led negotiations as the decimation of our fishing fleet has shown. There was also the situation with Scottish EU grant moneys being deducted from our Westminster pocket moneys. Pretty sick making stuff. The team that Alex Salmond will field do not have heads the button up the back but have heads that put Scotland first for a change.
I'll probably open a can of worms, but I do believe that the SNP's attitude to the EU (not Europe) could be its Achilles heel.
Why get Independence and then "negotiate" it away ?
I have much more confidence in any SNP led negotiations with the EU, than I have in UK led negotiations as the decimation of our fishing fleet has shown. There was also the situation with Scottish EU grant moneys being deducted from our Westminster pocket moneys. Pretty sick making stuff. The team that Alex Salmond will field do not have heads the button up the back but have heads that put Scotland first for a change.
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2012-01-16 12:51
Whatever gave you the idea thata shrewd group like the SNP would be pushed into any deal that would be bad for Scotland? Fact is that in such deals Scotland holds a very big whip hand. Check out the actual resources we have in our sector of the North sea. Remember also the developements in the non-North Sea areas around our coasts and the wind water and even the coal and other resources under our land. Don't you know that the oil industry actually started out in the Lothians with the Shale Oil industry. We have just about everything under our feet including lead, gold, tin, silver and lots more too. We also have those rich resourses of lots of water and lots of space. Fact is that the Northern Highlands and Southern uplands of Scotland are former well populated areas. Once we had the Great Caladonian forest and a well populated Highlands. It was the, (mainly), English landlords that depopulated our country and turned it into a virtual wasteland. Walk through any Highland glen and you will find the remnants of many human habitations. These glens once teemed with people. As did the southeren uplands. Now Scotland is beautiful but would she be any less beautiful with more land returned to other uses than killing fields for wealthy toffs with a bloodlust to kill our wildlife.
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2012-01-16 13:30
Quoting Aucheorn:
Alex Salmond has stated, and it is SNP policy, that in an independent Scotland the matter of possible membership of the EU will be put to the electorate in another referendum. Unlike England, I may add, where both North British Broon and Cameron have both gone back on their word to do just that in "the UK".
I'll probably open a can of worms, but I do believe that the SNP's attitude to the EU (not Europe) could be its Achilles heel.
Why get Independence and then "negotiate" it away ?
Alex Salmond has stated, and it is SNP policy, that in an independent Scotland the matter of possible membership of the EU will be put to the electorate in another referendum. Unlike England, I may add, where both North British Broon and Cameron have both gone back on their word to do just that in "the UK".
#
2012-01-16 13:49
Alex Salmond has said many times he will ask the Scottish people if they want to join Europe. So wait for the referendum and vote against it, simple!!
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2012-01-16 12:05
Actually, the tweet was
PeterMurrell 1102 new @theSNP members in 7 days. 1102 more YES campaigners. Join them in shaping Scotland's future, click t.co/1flMIgJ0 #indyref
Which could be read ambiguously as either
1102 new Party Members
or
1102 new "members" to following the @snp Twitter feed.
Which is why I am looking for clarification.
A rise of 5% in party Membership in 7 days would be outstanding. I know myself that during the 2011 Election my local branch quadrupled the membership in my village so its not impossible but we should really be shouting this from every rooftop if it is New Members.
PeterMurrell 1102 new @theSNP members in 7 days. 1102 more YES campaigners. Join them in shaping Scotland's future, click t.co/1flMIgJ0 #indyref
Which could be read ambiguously as either
1102 new Party Members
or
1102 new "members" to following the @snp Twitter feed.
Which is why I am looking for clarification.
A rise of 5% in party Membership in 7 days would be outstanding. I know myself that during the 2011 Election my local branch quadrupled the membership in my village so its not impossible but we should really be shouting this from every rooftop if it is New Members.
#
2012-01-16 15:37
Yesterday I saw a figure of nearly 800 new party members since Monday so my guess is it is actual new party members (or as near as makes no difference to the amazingness of the result).
Well done the U-boys! More! More!
Can you re-release Murphy, Foulkes, Baillie and Wendy as well? Please!,... Pretty Please!!?
Well done the U-boys! More! More!
Can you re-release Murphy, Foulkes, Baillie and Wendy as well? Please!,... Pretty Please!!?
#
2012-01-16 11:56
In P&J today.
SSE eyes new north project
Scottish utility SSE is about to put forward plans for a new hydroelectric project in the heart of the Highlands for public scrutiny before a planning application to Scottish ministers.
Read more...
Salmond opens country’s arms to young innovators
The first minister is to invite some of the world’s most talented young innovators to Scotland to see the energy research being undertaken.
Read more...
All good more news for Scotland.
SSE eyes new north project
Scottish utility SSE is about to put forward plans for a new hydroelectric project in the heart of the Highlands for public scrutiny before a planning application to Scottish ministers.
Read more...
Salmond opens country’s arms to young innovators
The first minister is to invite some of the world’s most talented young innovators to Scotland to see the energy research being undertaken.
Read more...
All good more news for Scotland.
#
2012-01-16 12:34
Interestingly - alongside that article there was another that reported that the boss of Barclays bank was receive a bonus of £10m.
That's 20 start-ups.
That's 20 start-ups.
#
2012-01-16 16:53
We are approaching bankers bonus time again and in spite of all that has been said it looks like nothing has changed. Clegg was busy this morning lecturing on how he was going to deal with the situation. Once again they will have been shown to be impotent and the bankers bonus juggernaught will roll on as per usual.
#
2012-01-16 12:01
Open letter from Saltire Groppenslosh to all unionist politicians in westminster;
Is that it? Is that all you've got?
Let our Scottish Government get on with running our own affairs and stop pestering us.
You've got enough troubles of your own to be getting on with.
And specifically to those unionist politicians in holyrood;
I think the time has come for you to start doing some real personal navel searching. Independence is going to happen. What part of Scotlands future do you wish to be a part of? It is simple to see that if you continue with this level of nonsense that post-independence you might not be able to command any mandate to take part because of your stance pre-independence.
Kindest regards and yours for Scotland,
Saltire Groppenslosh
xx
Is that it? Is that all you've got?
Let our Scottish Government get on with running our own affairs and stop pestering us.
You've got enough troubles of your own to be getting on with.
And specifically to those unionist politicians in holyrood;
I think the time has come for you to start doing some real personal navel searching. Independence is going to happen. What part of Scotlands future do you wish to be a part of? It is simple to see that if you continue with this level of nonsense that post-independence you might not be able to command any mandate to take part because of your stance pre-independence.
Kindest regards and yours for Scotland,
Saltire Groppenslosh
xx
#
2012-01-16 18:48
The train standing at platform one is the Unionist Special to London in the Former United Kingdom.
#
2012-01-16 12:01
It doesn't seem sensible to project too far into the future and try to anticipate what will happen in Europe.
The question of joining or not must be left open for now. It can only be a statement of intent now that Europe is in turmoil.
The question of joining or not must be left open for now. It can only be a statement of intent now that Europe is in turmoil.
#
2012-01-16 12:56
J Wil,
Europe is not in turmoil - The EU is not all of Europe. It is the EU and the Euro that are troubled. Take a look at the countries in the Scengen Accord and check them alongside those in the EU.
Europe is not in turmoil - The EU is not all of Europe. It is the EU and the Euro that are troubled. Take a look at the countries in the Scengen Accord and check them alongside those in the EU.
#
2012-01-16 16:38
Fair enough. The point remains that there will be plenty of choices for the Scottish people about which route to take after independence is secured.
#
2012-01-16 12:11
I also liked this from a Lab quote about the Council Glasgow elections.
"Labour is putting forward Glasgow's A-team, with a mix of experienced civic leaders and new faces, ready and eager to focus on the big issues: boosting Glasgow's economy, supporting graduate employment, and helping pensioners with their bills."
I wonder who are the First team.
"Labour is putting forward Glasgow's A-team, with a mix of experienced civic leaders and new faces, ready and eager to focus on the big issues: boosting Glasgow's economy, supporting graduate employment, and helping pensioners with their bills."
I wonder who are the First team.
#
2012-01-16 13:33
Maybe Glaswegians need to be reminded they say that every election then once they are in power. They do nothing for Glasgow except steal and swindle.
#
2012-01-17 01:32
"Labour is putting forward Glasgow's A-team,..."
Who will be handling the milky bars?
Who will be handling the milky bars?
#
2012-01-16 12:21
Probably not Harris then.
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
Nazi spoof comparing Alex Salmond to Hitler is downfall for Labour's new media adviser Tom Harris MP
A Labour MP has been forced to resign as the party’s new media adviser after creating a spoof video comparing Adolf Hitler’s final days with Alex Salmond’s machinations over the referendum on Scottish independence.
telegraph.co.uk/.../...
Nazi spoof comparing Alex Salmond to Hitler is downfall for Labour's new media adviser Tom Harris MP
A Labour MP has been forced to resign as the party’s new media adviser after creating a spoof video comparing Adolf Hitler’s final days with Alex Salmond’s machinations over the referendum on Scottish independence.
#
2012-01-16 12:41
Front page of the Sun too...
thescottishsun.co.uk/.../...
thescottishsun.co.uk/.../...
That's the Labour May council election campaign off to a cracking start then.
thescottishsun.co.uk/.../...
thescottishsun.co.uk/.../...
That's the Labour May council election campaign off to a cracking start then.
#
2012-01-16 13:24
Face it, Harris is only saying in public what many of his party members and supporters often say but not usually in a public forum. I've heard it all before. As a card carrying SNP member way back in the sixtys and seventies, and also being a union rep in wall to wall labour trade union meetings I heard it all from both union officials and the shop floors. Not much has changed in the Labour Party mindset. Now, don't get me wrong, there were lots of good people working hard for the workers but the mantra, "If you are not with us you are against us", was widespread. Ignorance more than badness really.
#
2012-01-16 12:38
I cannot for the life of me understand why everybody is so keen to stay within the EU. The two wealthiest and most democratic countries in the world, Norway and Switzerland (number 1 and 7 respectively) sre not members. They have sorted their relationship with the EU through the EEA (Norway) and a free trade agreement (Switzerland) essentially securing the countris similar rights in terms of access to markets and movements of goods and people. These countries have achieved this without conceding sovereignty and democratic rights for its people. So what if they don't have a say at the EU table. Look at member states like Greece and Ireland. Their "say" at the table made zero difference for the draconian measures imposed on them by the EU in very recent times...
Good riddance, I say!
Good riddance, I say!
#
2012-01-16 15:25
The same arguement applies (OR should apply) as the independence referendum. Logical arguement and the choice of the people.
If you want to open a second front before we gain independence then we provide the fodder of disent.
FOCUS - INDEPENDENCE
You will have no choices if you don't get the first part.
If you want to open a second front before we gain independence then we provide the fodder of disent.
FOCUS - INDEPENDENCE
You will have no choices if you don't get the first part.
#
2012-01-16 15:53
People in Britain have been kept in the dark just how badly off the UK is in terms of total debt. Much worse than Germany, France etc.
In absolute terms UK debt is the second biggest in the World, not far behind the USA (approx. from memory, USA 15 trillion dollars, UK 10 trillion dollars) but of course the USA has 5-6 times the population of the UK and a higher per capita GDP.
World financial sights (and guns) will retrain on the UK soon enough.
In absolute terms UK debt is the second biggest in the World, not far behind the USA (approx. from memory, USA 15 trillion dollars, UK 10 trillion dollars) but of course the USA has 5-6 times the population of the UK and a higher per capita GDP.
World financial sights (and guns) will retrain on the UK soon enough.
#
2012-01-16 20:28
Maybe that's an extra reason why Cameron's so keen to protect the City of London. The priviledged position of the banks in London is perhaps the only thing stopping the rating agencies targeting the 'UK'. In other words the UK government is essentially the political wing of global banking.
#
2012-01-16 12:57
As the SDA has been telling anybody who would listen - we simply do not have to re-apply for membership. Just think - everyone about £20 a week better off in their pockets, and our fishermen free to ply their trade without interference.
Bring on Independence.
Bring on Independence.
#
2012-01-16 13:04
Remind me how many people said they would vote for independence if it could be shown that they would be £500 a year better off Well there you have it £1000 double your money
#
2012-01-16 18:51
You mean the fishermen would be free to empty the seas don't you?
Sorry the fish in the seas is not a God given right to only fishermen.
Sorry the fish in the seas is not a God given right to only fishermen.
#
2012-01-16 20:39
Quoting Alx1:
Yeah !
Dion't alienate the shark and seal vote.
You mean the fishermen would be free to empty the seas don't you?
Sorry the fish in the seas is not a God given right to only fishermen.
Yeah !
Dion't alienate the shark and seal vote.
#
2012-01-16 21:08
Look what happened to newfoundland when they emptied their seas of cod, it has still not recovered and many fishermen are still without work as their industry was decimated.
#
2012-01-16 12:57
Some of us getting the traditional ladies' and transexuals' undergarments into a premauture twist about the EU again.
Time enough for ANY of that when we are in a position to make choices about it.
In the meantime it has to be pointed out firmly that the EU is a voluntary union from which any member can freely negotiate withdrawal.
Time enough for ANY of that when we are in a position to make choices about it.
In the meantime it has to be pointed out firmly that the EU is a voluntary union from which any member can freely negotiate withdrawal.
#
2012-01-16 13:24
Precisely.
"There is no doubt within the EU, however, that if Salmond secures a 'yes' vote, complex three-way negotiations between London, Edinburgh and Brussels will be triggered -- altering Britain's voting clout and financial relations with the EU." (AFP)
When we see the result of those negotiations, is time enough to decide whether to declare our intention to withdraw.
"There is no doubt within the EU, however, that if Salmond secures a 'yes' vote, complex three-way negotiations between London, Edinburgh and Brussels will be triggered -- altering Britain's voting clout and financial relations with the EU." (AFP)
When we see the result of those negotiations, is time enough to decide whether to declare our intention to withdraw.
#
2012-01-16 13:37
Just as a matter of record, the last time anyone asked (1975), the result in Scotland was
en.wikipedia.org/.../...
Scotland
Yes 1,332,186 58.4%
No 948,039 41.6%
With only Shetland and The Western Isles having a NO majority
For "The UK" as a whole, there was a (suspiciously?) Clear 67%/33% YES Vote
So do we need to worry about Europe After Independence or Before ?
As with so much, it has to be before. We have to present a clear answer on this, the Currency, Defence long in advance of the campaign or the Unionists will play every doubt, fear, uncertainty as a reason to vote NO.
We can't make Policy on the Hoof - Look what has just happened to Dave and Nick.
en.wikipedia.org/.../...
Scotland
Yes 1,332,186 58.4%
No 948,039 41.6%
With only Shetland and The Western Isles having a NO majority
For "The UK" as a whole, there was a (suspiciously?) Clear 67%/33% YES Vote
So do we need to worry about Europe After Independence or Before ?
As with so much, it has to be before. We have to present a clear answer on this, the Currency, Defence long in advance of the campaign or the Unionists will play every doubt, fear, uncertainty as a reason to vote NO.
We can't make Policy on the Hoof - Look what has just happened to Dave and Nick.
#
2012-01-16 13:46
Isn't it just great how they try to justify it? which to all intents and purposes renders the apology useless
However I do not believe in wasting time on such ignorant people It just helps to know who they are for future reference
However I do not believe in wasting time on such ignorant people It just helps to know who they are for future reference
#
2012-01-16 15:32
I don't know what Tom Harris's degree was in, but it certainly wasn't in communication.
#
2012-01-16 13:43
Peter Kellman, YouGov chairman, on the different methods open for voting in regards to the referendum
labs.yougov.co.uk/.../...
labs.yougov.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-01-16 16:39
The flaw in this article is in assuming that on a roughly 1/3 each split for independence/devo max/status quo the devomax element would be mostly otherwise status quo voters. I do not believe this is the case at all. Indeed I think it is the other way around and that the devomax vote if forced to choose between independence and the status quo would favour independence.
Why? because I know that there are a lot of independence supporters, even quite strongly for independence, who would like to see one final stepping stone, one final test, to prove Scotland will not be worse off financially before voting finally for independence. If they got the chance.
They would vote for independence if that is the only alternative but would 'play it safe' and vote for devomax, provided it is near enough FFA, if that is on offer as well.
I agree devomax would win on a 3-way but I believe independence will win on a two way independence versus status quo.
But there is a chance independence could lose if status quo is the only choice.
However, the devomax option would guarantee independence in the not too distant future. (provided of course that FFA does demonstrate to Scots that they will be no worse off with independence).
As I've posted before, it goes like this
With a devomax option, devomax is likely to win, however the 'no more referenda for a generation' guarantee goes right out the window, because most of those voting devomax would be those who favour independence but just want one final test.
So you are talking about another independence winning referendum in 5 or ten years or so.
If there is only an independence versus status quo option and independence loses, then, unless some game changing revelations about the campaign subsequently come to light (vote rigging, lying on a key issue etc.) then there will not be another vote for a 'generation', about 30 years, by which time there may NOT be a lot of oil left.
So its basically higher risk independence now or much more certain independence in 5-10 years with failure now possibly meaning never.
It is a tough call.
Why? because I know that there are a lot of independence supporters, even quite strongly for independence, who would like to see one final stepping stone, one final test, to prove Scotland will not be worse off financially before voting finally for independence. If they got the chance.
They would vote for independence if that is the only alternative but would 'play it safe' and vote for devomax, provided it is near enough FFA, if that is on offer as well.
I agree devomax would win on a 3-way but I believe independence will win on a two way independence versus status quo.
But there is a chance independence could lose if status quo is the only choice.
However, the devomax option would guarantee independence in the not too distant future. (provided of course that FFA does demonstrate to Scots that they will be no worse off with independence).
As I've posted before, it goes like this
With a devomax option, devomax is likely to win, however the 'no more referenda for a generation' guarantee goes right out the window, because most of those voting devomax would be those who favour independence but just want one final test.
So you are talking about another independence winning referendum in 5 or ten years or so.
If there is only an independence versus status quo option and independence loses, then, unless some game changing revelations about the campaign subsequently come to light (vote rigging, lying on a key issue etc.) then there will not be another vote for a 'generation', about 30 years, by which time there may NOT be a lot of oil left.
So its basically higher risk independence now or much more certain independence in 5-10 years with failure now possibly meaning never.
It is a tough call.
#
2012-01-16 17:44
Agreed Chic
I've attempted to make the same point on the article, but not as eloquently as you... :)
That's my way of saying 'feel free to post your response over there' :)
I've attempted to make the same point on the article, but not as eloquently as you... :)
That's my way of saying 'feel free to post your response over there' :)
#
2012-01-16 17:46
This is a quote from Boris Johnson in the Telegraph today.
But look at the facts, my friends. Look at that submerged reef marked “devo max”, or fiscal independence for Scotland. If you can unpick the fiscal union, what is there to maintain the monetary union? And if you unpick monetary union — as George Osborne rightly points out — then political union is dead
So the attitude of the main Unionist players is that FFA is NO and they will NEVER agree to it.
The choice is clear that only independence will give the majority of Scottish people what they want.
But look at the facts, my friends. Look at that submerged reef marked “devo max”, or fiscal independence for Scotland. If you can unpick the fiscal union, what is there to maintain the monetary union? And if you unpick monetary union — as George Osborne rightly points out — then political union is dead
So the attitude of the main Unionist players is that FFA is NO and they will NEVER agree to it.
The choice is clear that only independence will give the majority of Scottish people what they want.
#
2012-01-16 18:57
I've said this many, many times before if we had proper FFA now, not the oh we'll give you some oil & gas territory, then England/Westminster would offload us as quick as, because they have no further use of us.
#
2012-01-16 19:21
Keller has this article(?) in the Huffy post.
Its open to comments and the floor is all your, no comments so far.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
Its open to comments and the floor is all your, no comments so far.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-01-16 21:23
Got a wee conversation going on the YouGov site, you're more than welcome there too Alx
#
2012-01-16 13:49
Well Cameron and the Tories want to re-negotiate the terms of EU membership. This is their chance.
It looks like the reasons for the Conservatives to support independence keep stacking up. Up until now just a few backbenchers not many have voiced this opinion this, but for how long.
The cabinet may oppose it for economic reasons but how long can they ignore the temptation for political advantage. After all many of their voters want to 'see the back of Scotland' if the Torygraph and Mail are to be believed.
Many interesting twists and turns to come I think but a split in the Tories would be brilliant.
It looks like the reasons for the Conservatives to support independence keep stacking up. Up until now just a few backbenchers not many have voiced this opinion this, but for how long.
The cabinet may oppose it for economic reasons but how long can they ignore the temptation for political advantage. After all many of their voters want to 'see the back of Scotland' if the Torygraph and Mail are to be believed.
Many interesting twists and turns to come I think but a split in the Tories would be brilliant.
#
2012-01-16 19:10
I kept thinking that! When Scotland leaves and they're FORCED to renegotiate and don't get a good deal because the EU don't like them try can blame it on those tiresome Scots!
#
2012-01-16 13:59
OT but I think a few people here will enjoy Alan Bissett's powerful poem on independence reproduced on Bella Caledonia.
bellacaledonia.org.uk/.../...
bellacaledonia.org.uk/.../...
#
2012-01-16 14:17
Scotland as an Oil,Gas,Coal,Wi nd,Rain and Tidal rich country and with numerous other resources, Sitting on the EDGE of europe as an Independent non aligned Nation.Well it would not be long before people started calling.!!Vote Snp Independence & Restoration Party.!!
#
2012-01-16 14:35
I believe our water is the key to all things The rest we can live without one way or another.
Without water you have a few days
We are the fortunate ones
Without water you have a few days
We are the fortunate ones
#
2012-01-16 14:31
cjmjr,
I couldnt agree more!!,i also make the point, that after Independence the pound and the euro, will be bending over backwards, desperate for our business
I couldnt agree more!!,i also make the point, that after Independence the pound and the euro, will be bending over backwards, desperate for our business
#
2012-01-16 15:35
Kofk and cjmjr
Totally agree. We will hold all the Aces... I would suggest that Scotland looks at all the options available to it and not rush into any descisions.
We must be very careful that the side issue of EU membership doesnt deflect us from our primary aim, which is Independance. We must stay positive and win the arguments with clear and precise presentation of the facts.
Totally agree. We will hold all the Aces... I would suggest that Scotland looks at all the options available to it and not rush into any descisions.
We must be very careful that the side issue of EU membership doesnt deflect us from our primary aim, which is Independance. We must stay positive and win the arguments with clear and precise presentation of the facts.
#
2012-01-16 14:46
Here is a wee sample of the folk our FM is meeting in Abu Dhabi
First Minister Alex Salmond met with UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon and Premier Wen of China and shared his vision of a global society with a secure energy future as part of the annual World Future Energy summit in Abu Dhabi.
Alex Salmond spoke with the UN Secretary General, Premier Wen, President of Iceland Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, President of the UN General Assembly HE Nassir Abdulaziz Al Nasser, President of Kosovo Atifete Jahjaga and Prime Minister of South Korea Kim Hwang-sik.
The First Minister said: "Scotland's energy challenges and champions make us a leader in the international sustainability debate. We are also world leaders in the transition to a low carbon economy and in particular the renewables revolution. It is only fitting that we should be part of the foremost annual meeting committed to finding solutions to the energy needs of the future.
Wonder what the dependents are doing today
First Minister Alex Salmond met with UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon and Premier Wen of China and shared his vision of a global society with a secure energy future as part of the annual World Future Energy summit in Abu Dhabi.
Alex Salmond spoke with the UN Secretary General, Premier Wen, President of Iceland Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, President of the UN General Assembly HE Nassir Abdulaziz Al Nasser, President of Kosovo Atifete Jahjaga and Prime Minister of South Korea Kim Hwang-sik.
The First Minister said: "Scotland's energy challenges and champions make us a leader in the international sustainability debate. We are also world leaders in the transition to a low carbon economy and in particular the renewables revolution. It is only fitting that we should be part of the foremost annual meeting committed to finding solutions to the energy needs of the future.
Wonder what the dependents are doing today
#
2012-01-16 20:46
They are considered to be intellectual pygmies, only important people were invited. People on the way up not has-beens or never even has-beens
#
2012-01-16 15:38
The beast within the machine has made use of Tom Harris to achieve its ends. If you can't control the beast, stay away from the machine, Tom. Never again try to subdue the beast by calling yourself technology chief.
#
2012-01-16 15:54
OT.
I notice the links dont work unless you are logged in. Surely this should be corrected, as someone who is just 'looking in' would want to tab back and forth.
I notice the links dont work unless you are logged in. Surely this should be corrected, as someone who is just 'looking in' would want to tab back and forth.
#
2012-01-16 16:11
"Holyrood risks flouting the rule of law" says Wallace.
Well, I think the law risks flouting Holyrood. Westminster has no legal powers over the treaty of union, which is a treaty in international law. If Westminster tries to run a referendum for which the ultimate aim is repeal or amendment of the treaty, it will be challenged in the international courts.
That is why it is important that this referendum is advisory, and not legally binding. Enter the international law courts at your peril, Mr Moore.
Well, I think the law risks flouting Holyrood. Westminster has no legal powers over the treaty of union, which is a treaty in international law. If Westminster tries to run a referendum for which the ultimate aim is repeal or amendment of the treaty, it will be challenged in the international courts.
That is why it is important that this referendum is advisory, and not legally binding. Enter the international law courts at your peril, Mr Moore.
#
2012-01-16 16:40
The way things are going, EU and/or UN involvement may not be too far away.
The world is watching closely and the UK is not exempt from international law. It has no friends out there...
How embarrasing it would be for Dave if the UN felt it necessary to send monitors in. Easy enough for the Scottish government to appeal to the UN if needed.
I think the above stuff from the EU suggests a ramp up of international pressure may be on the cards. Could be another reason why Westminster is trying to rush things...
The world is watching closely and the UK is not exempt from international law. It has no friends out there...
How embarrasing it would be for Dave if the UN felt it necessary to send monitors in. Easy enough for the Scottish government to appeal to the UN if needed.
I think the above stuff from the EU suggests a ramp up of international pressure may be on the cards. Could be another reason why Westminster is trying to rush things...
#
2012-01-16 16:40
We need to be mindful of the language we use here to ensure we fight this on our ground (and terms) and not Westminster's. We are not proposing "leaving" the UK, or even "seceding" from the union. We are proposing dissolving the union. It will cease to exist. Westminster does not have any authority over this. And in this event the assets and liabilities will be split - and as the First Minister said that includes the Bank of England and Sterling (assets of the now non existent UK).
Greater England could continue to call itself the UK, but the legal fact is that the state formerly known as the UK will have ceased and a new one created. This inevitably means the creation of a new parliament (as the old one ceased to exist), even if its in the same building.
Lots for the unionists to think about - and lets make sure its on the true basis and not the "sovereign Westminster" basis.
Greater England could continue to call itself the UK, but the legal fact is that the state formerly known as the UK will have ceased and a new one created. This inevitably means the creation of a new parliament (as the old one ceased to exist), even if its in the same building.
Lots for the unionists to think about - and lets make sure its on the true basis and not the "sovereign Westminster" basis.
#
2012-01-16 17:38
Shackled to a corpse
Excellent point - the term "dissolving" is very important.
A return to Independence following the dissolving of the union - I like that
:D
Excellent point - the term "dissolving" is very important.
A return to Independence following the dissolving of the union - I like that
:D
#
2012-01-16 17:54
Absolutely stac,independen ce will bring opportunities for Scotland but "issues" for England.
We have much to gain and they have much to lose (but don't tell them!).
We have much to gain and they have much to lose (but don't tell them!).
#
2012-01-16 16:42
That's the important point. Westminster has NO authority to amend the treaty of union itself.
#
2012-01-16 16:38
Jeez, talk about flogging a dead horse.
Which court?
Which law?
The opinion of Westminster, and for that matter it's new pretendy 'UK supreme court' in London, are irrelevant.
What matters is a democratic mandate for self determination, observed by the global community. The right to pursue such an independence referendum, is upheld by the UN charter and the council of Europe. Make no mistake BOTH those bodies take such matters seriously. They also take seriously, the attempts by those rogues states who choose to undermine the right to self determination, and who attempt to indulge in what might be called 'external' interference or gerrymandering.
What the unelected Lord Wallace and his unionist cabal in London think is neither here nor there.
Which court?
Which law?
The opinion of Westminster, and for that matter it's new pretendy 'UK supreme court' in London, are irrelevant.
What matters is a democratic mandate for self determination, observed by the global community. The right to pursue such an independence referendum, is upheld by the UN charter and the council of Europe. Make no mistake BOTH those bodies take such matters seriously. They also take seriously, the attempts by those rogues states who choose to undermine the right to self determination, and who attempt to indulge in what might be called 'external' interference or gerrymandering.
What the unelected Lord Wallace and his unionist cabal in London think is neither here nor there.
#
2012-01-16 16:43
Quoting Robert Louis:
Well, the Law of England does not extend into Scotland, and there is no "UK" law, so it must be contrary to Scots Law. Perhaps the noble Lord could point us to the specific law to which he refers.
Jeez, talk about flogging a dead horse.
Which court?
Which law?
Well, the Law of England does not extend into Scotland, and there is no "UK" law, so it must be contrary to Scots Law. Perhaps the noble Lord could point us to the specific law to which he refers.
#
2012-01-16 17:18
But flog it we must, Robert Louis. Westminster, with the support of MPs who have not been prepared to stand up for Scottish sovereignty, will never explain the true constitutional position.
I had to go back to first principles of questioning what brought the union into being. The lights came on! A veil was lifted from my eyes. (Really, I just said f*** me, is that it?).
At a later date, I shall be demanding my say on the monarch.
Keep repeating the facts every time you see them being hidden or mis-stated.
"But facts are chiels that winna ding, An downa be disputed"
I had to go back to first principles of questioning what brought the union into being. The lights came on! A veil was lifted from my eyes. (Really, I just said f*** me, is that it?).
At a later date, I shall be demanding my say on the monarch.
Keep repeating the facts every time you see them being hidden or mis-stated.
"But facts are chiels that winna ding, An downa be disputed"
#
2012-01-16 16:04
Anent Malcolm Rifkind on GMS.He got away with making assertions that might easily have been debunked by Alex Salmond. Interesting too he seemed keen to "Take on" the FM at the hustings. Is he lining himself up as heid-bummer of the NO campaign? He and his other Tory Scots with English seats will find life a bit difficult post Scottish Independence. Seems he's looking after his own interests, not just "The Union". He's haivering too about how 59 Scots MP's can be in any way effective in a UK Parliament of 640 odd MP's. As England's population continues to expand so too does their domination of Scotland and Wales, whose FM stated in Dublin that should Scotland win it's freedom Wales would consider England's domination of the rump Westminster parliament "Unacceptable" Aye, guid stuff!
#
2012-01-16 16:39
Gary was busy watching the tennis from the Australian open I know this because K with an E spoke to him and he didn't respond and then admitted that was what he was doing
I imagine having an elder statesman before him( who would know, and be correct in everything he said) he would just let him get on with it and be like the wee nodding dog while watching the tennis Why make life difficult for yourself by asking questions?
I imagine having an elder statesman before him( who would know, and be correct in everything he said) he would just let him get on with it and be like the wee nodding dog while watching the tennis Why make life difficult for yourself by asking questions?
#
2012-01-16 16:22
latest on BBC is this man fit for purpose.
Scottish independence: Lord Wallace warns of 'unlawful' referendum
Scottish independence: Lord Wallace warns of 'unlawful' referendum
#
2012-01-16 20:57
Quoting RTP:
Unelected Jim Wallace who incidently is the FUK's Advocate General for Scoland and a memeber of the Calman commision previously believed that in Scotland the people are Sovereign as he signed the claim of right.
He should be invited to sign the new
claim of right this week it would be
interesting to see him squirm out of that one. Political Patronage should be
made illegal when we gain our indenpendence
latest on BBC is this man fit for purpose.
Scottish independence: Lord Wallace warns of 'unlawful' referendum
Unelected Jim Wallace who incidently is the FUK's Advocate General for Scoland and a memeber of the Calman commision previously believed that in Scotland the people are Sovereign as he signed the claim of right.
He should be invited to sign the new
claim of right this week it would be
interesting to see him squirm out of that one. Political Patronage should be
made illegal when we gain our indenpendence
#
2012-01-16 16:41
It is extremely important that we are as accurate and correct in everything we say and write in this attempt to counter unionist scaremongering and lies. With that in mind and with respect I must point out to AuldBob that Ulster contains 9 counties, only 6 of them form Northern Ireland. ergo Ulster and Northern Ireland are not synonymous!
#
2012-01-16 16:43
Someone pointed out a Guardian article which said that the consequence for Scotland if it turned down the opportunity for independence would be to be mocked and diminished in the eyes of the other UK countries for evermore.
That text should be placed permanently at the top of every page on this site to remind everyone, whether regulars or occasional visitors, of what we can expect from failure.
That text should be placed permanently at the top of every page on this site to remind everyone, whether regulars or occasional visitors, of what we can expect from failure.
#
2012-01-16 16:50
Excuse me but I'm late to all this and O/T.
A brilliant moment squandered by the union Holyrood members in reply to Ms McAlpine's alleged "anti-Scottish" claim - why did they not simply rebuff her point by showering her with all the reasons why Scotland should remain in the union thus proving their 'Pro-Scottishness'?
Surely an unprecedented MP resignation from the media Tsar under the direction, apparently, of Ms J Lamont MSP? The spoof was somewhat underwhelming and a tad naff from any perspective so why resign? Could it be that Labour wish to demonstrate their 'moral high ground' compared to the wicked Ms McAlpine and by implication the dastardly SNP.
A brilliant moment squandered by the union Holyrood members in reply to Ms McAlpine's alleged "anti-Scottish" claim - why did they not simply rebuff her point by showering her with all the reasons why Scotland should remain in the union thus proving their 'Pro-Scottishness'?
Surely an unprecedented MP resignation from the media Tsar under the direction, apparently, of Ms J Lamont MSP? The spoof was somewhat underwhelming and a tad naff from any perspective so why resign? Could it be that Labour wish to demonstrate their 'moral high ground' compared to the wicked Ms McAlpine and by implication the dastardly SNP.
#
2012-01-16 17:01
There was an equally brilliant moment when John Swinney was doing his winding up statement and David McLetchie interjected. Swinney's immediate repost was that they were two bald men occupying the same space looking for a comb. Swinney then went on to apologise to Patrick Harvey. The place exploded.
#
2012-01-16 17:25
"media Tsar"?
The beast in the machine allows no "media Tsar". When you touch the keys of your computer you are under the control of the beast. The beast will destroy media Tsars, technology supremos and communications advisers.
The beast in the machine allows no "media Tsar". When you touch the keys of your computer you are under the control of the beast. The beast will destroy media Tsars, technology supremos and communications advisers.
#
2012-01-16 16:54
While agreeing with the thrust of Joan McAlpine's comments, I venture to suggest that Robert Burns said it better.
#
2012-01-16 17:14
A few thoughts,
First Lord Wallace of Tankerness. Ex Jim Wallace, before he slipped into the warm, cosy, ermine number he now strides about in.
Does he not see the delicious irony in his comment, ""worrying step" for a democratically-elected government" as quoted by the BBC.
Jim isn't Democratically elected!
So get back into your ferret hutch with the other ermines Jim! And stay there, you are not wanted in Scotland.
As for Tom Harris, I have to admit that for a brief second I started to develop some respect for Tom during the leadership contest. Here was an MP, with a career in Westminster showing himself to be interested in Scotland. Now this.
Very sad.
Regarding the comparisons he is making with Joan McAlpine, they are truely desperate. If this is a deliberate plot to win an SNP scalp then it's childish in the extreme. If it isn't, then it's still childish.
Joan should be supported all the way; as she is correct, however you wrap it up, play with the words, or get the heebie jeebies about the proper use of language in this debate. It's simple, Scotland has been milked dry by Unionist politicians for 300 years. Preventing an attempt for Scotland to exercise her right, through a democratic process, to make a decision on her future, is Anti-Scottish.
First Lord Wallace of Tankerness. Ex Jim Wallace, before he slipped into the warm, cosy, ermine number he now strides about in.
Does he not see the delicious irony in his comment, ""worrying step" for a democratically-elected government" as quoted by the BBC.
Jim isn't Democratically elected!
So get back into your ferret hutch with the other ermines Jim! And stay there, you are not wanted in Scotland.
As for Tom Harris, I have to admit that for a brief second I started to develop some respect for Tom during the leadership contest. Here was an MP, with a career in Westminster showing himself to be interested in Scotland. Now this.
Very sad.
Regarding the comparisons he is making with Joan McAlpine, they are truely desperate. If this is a deliberate plot to win an SNP scalp then it's childish in the extreme. If it isn't, then it's still childish.
Joan should be supported all the way; as she is correct, however you wrap it up, play with the words, or get the heebie jeebies about the proper use of language in this debate. It's simple, Scotland has been milked dry by Unionist politicians for 300 years. Preventing an attempt for Scotland to exercise her right, through a democratic process, to make a decision on her future, is Anti-Scottish.
#
2012-01-16 17:45
"an MP, with a career in Westminster showing himself to be interested in Scotland"
You have to watch the pea and not the thimbles if you are gaming with a person with the above description.
You have to watch the pea and not the thimbles if you are gaming with a person with the above description.
#
2012-01-16 18:48
Joke of the day...
Lord Wallace (Wally of the lib dems)
has announced that if Scotland has an Independence referendum it would be illegal.
I am beginning to believe that some sort of LSD derivitive is given off when you combine ermine with hot air - how else would you explain the delusions and the stupidity from the house of lords..
Lord Wallace (Wally of the lib dems)
has announced that if Scotland has an Independence referendum it would be illegal.
I am beginning to believe that some sort of LSD derivitive is given off when you combine ermine with hot air - how else would you explain the delusions and the stupidity from the house of lords..
#
2012-01-16 18:49
We have heard much from the Deputy Leader of “Scottish” Labour and I was wondering what Mr Sanwar’s forefathers would have thought of his current stance on self determination.
1885 The first meeting of the Indian National Congress, Bombay.
1920 Mahatma Gandhi leads the Congress; Non-cooperation Movement.
1922 Indian Civil Disobedience Movement.
1928 Simon Commission comes to India: Boycott by all parties.
1929 Lord Irwin promises Dominion Status for India.
1930 Civil Disobedience Movement continues; Salt Satyagraha: Gandhi's Dandi March; First Round Table Conference.
1932 Suppression of the Congress movement; Third Round Table Conference.
1940 Viceroy makes a statement on India's constitutional development - the August Offer - and announces that more places would be open to representative Indians in an expanded Executive Council and on a new War Advisory Council.
1940 Congress and League reject the August Offer.
1940 Congress launches civil disobedience.
1941 Congress civil disobedience prisoners set free.
1942 British Government announces its decision to send Sir Stafford Cripps to India and
Cripps proposals published.
1942 Congress and League reject the Cripps proposals. Congress launches 'Quit India movement' and is declared an unlawful organisation; Gandhi and all members of the Congress Working Committee are arrested.
1945 Imprisoned Congress leaders released
1947 Communal rioting in Punjab. Prime Minister Attlee announces the British intention of leaving India by June 1948, and Mountbatten to succeed as Viceroy.
1947 Outbreak of communal disturbances in Lahore, Multan and other Pujabi towns.
1947 Mountbatten sworn in as Viceroy and governor-General. Viceroy holds the first of five interviews with Gandhi. Conference of Governors; approval for draft proposals for the transfer of power.
1947 Indian Independence Bill is published. Indian Independence Bill receives Royal Assent
August 1947 Pakistan Independence Celebrations in Karachi. Independence Day Celebrations in Delhi
Ghandi got it right, didn’t he Mr. Sanwar?
1885 The first meeting of the Indian National Congress, Bombay.
1920 Mahatma Gandhi leads the Congress; Non-cooperation Movement.
1922 Indian Civil Disobedience Movement.
1928 Simon Commission comes to India: Boycott by all parties.
1929 Lord Irwin promises Dominion Status for India.
1930 Civil Disobedience Movement continues; Salt Satyagraha: Gandhi's Dandi March; First Round Table Conference.
1932 Suppression of the Congress movement; Third Round Table Conference.
1940 Viceroy makes a statement on India's constitutional development - the August Offer - and announces that more places would be open to representative Indians in an expanded Executive Council and on a new War Advisory Council.
1940 Congress and League reject the August Offer.
1940 Congress launches civil disobedience.
1941 Congress civil disobedience prisoners set free.
1942 British Government announces its decision to send Sir Stafford Cripps to India and
Cripps proposals published.
1942 Congress and League reject the Cripps proposals. Congress launches 'Quit India movement' and is declared an unlawful organisation; Gandhi and all members of the Congress Working Committee are arrested.
1945 Imprisoned Congress leaders released
1947 Communal rioting in Punjab. Prime Minister Attlee announces the British intention of leaving India by June 1948, and Mountbatten to succeed as Viceroy.
1947 Outbreak of communal disturbances in Lahore, Multan and other Pujabi towns.
1947 Mountbatten sworn in as Viceroy and governor-General. Viceroy holds the first of five interviews with Gandhi. Conference of Governors; approval for draft proposals for the transfer of power.
1947 Indian Independence Bill is published. Indian Independence Bill receives Royal Assent
August 1947 Pakistan Independence Celebrations in Karachi. Independence Day Celebrations in Delhi
Ghandi got it right, didn’t he Mr. Sanwar?
#
2012-01-16 19:04
Jum Wallace, what an utterly odious little man. If any politician could be described as a 'Quisling' it's this reptile.
The quintessential Scottish Unionist par excellence.
independent.co.uk/.../...
The quintessential Scottish Unionist par excellence.
independent.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-01-16 19:09
Thanx AuldBob, they just keep their lies coming don't they !
The thrust of my argument still stands though, cos these fat cats are sucking money from some of the poorest areas of Scotland while billions are pouring out of the north sea etc.
Just posted this follow up post to Duncan, if he could grow a pair and join us....... !!!
That would be great Duncan, but the question you have got to ask yourself along with every other loyal Labour supporter on this site is :
Why oh why didn't the 'Socialist' Labour Party not do this when they were in power all these years ?
Alistair Darling, why didn't you do this ? Gordon Brown, why didn't you do it ? Douglas Alexander ? and so on and so on.
We voted these people in to Westminster to stand up for the interest of Scotland and what did they do ? THEY BETRAYED US !!! every single one of them.
We all know through experience that the Tories will never create an equal society... so we can forget about them.
We all know through experience that the Liberal's will turn their back on any group, if it gains them even a little bit of power.....so we can forget about them.
So that just leaves you good old labour party !
What has our experience taught us about them Duncan ? Unless you were born with a zip up the back of your head you can only truthfully say that experience has taught us that the Labour party has abandoned their Socialist past to become a right wing group who support the city of London fat cats.
Common sense tells us that in a desire to cling on to the healthy Scottish block vote that they have enjoyed for so long, they have continued to speak in left leaning terms while the real power brokers in Westminster were shafting the North by buying into the Capatalist dream so dearly loved by the city Spivs (do you remember what Mervin King from the bank of England said.... "a few unemployed in the north, is a price worth paying for stability in London ")
Duncan, you will be well known in labour circles and many people will trust you. most people are just trying to scratch a living and simply do not have the time or sometimes even the intellect to look deeply into political arguments.
They hear someone like you making statements and they think that it must be true cos you know all about politics...so if you were to leave the Labour party and join the independence movement it would send shock waves throughout the labour party. More importantly it would force them to relly start thinking about their roots and who they really want to represent.
The present labour party are 'Wolves in Sheeps clothing' and it needs to be brought to the attention of everyone in Scotland.
At the moment you are part of the biggest lie visited on the good people of our nation, people living in abject poverty, kids being brought up with very little chance of ever making it in the world through lack of education or life chances.
The socialist utopia that you dream about happening some day (Alice in Wonderland stuff tbh) will be too late for these kids Duncan.
Alll your crap about a world without borders is another 'never never land' dream that gives you the Psychological 'get out of jail card' that allows you to sit around on your lying arse watching your people being deceived, while you pretend to watch the sky looking for the return of the 'true labour movement'
Join the real radical movement that will make the people of Scotland sovereign Duncan, and then as the people of England see what we can acheive they will soon rally around the first person who rises up in England to offer them soverenty in their own country. REAL DIFFERENCE as apposed to pie in the sky.
Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant Duncan but I feel so strongly about the disgusting betrayal of the Scots by your party. You may very well mod this out but I know you will see it and so I hope you will give it some long and careful thought.
The thrust of my argument still stands though, cos these fat cats are sucking money from some of the poorest areas of Scotland while billions are pouring out of the north sea etc.
Just posted this follow up post to Duncan, if he could grow a pair and join us....... !!!
That would be great Duncan, but the question you have got to ask yourself along with every other loyal Labour supporter on this site is :
Why oh why didn't the 'Socialist' Labour Party not do this when they were in power all these years ?
Alistair Darling, why didn't you do this ? Gordon Brown, why didn't you do it ? Douglas Alexander ? and so on and so on.
We voted these people in to Westminster to stand up for the interest of Scotland and what did they do ? THEY BETRAYED US !!! every single one of them.
We all know through experience that the Tories will never create an equal society... so we can forget about them.
We all know through experience that the Liberal's will turn their back on any group, if it gains them even a little bit of power.....so we can forget about them.
So that just leaves you good old labour party !
What has our experience taught us about them Duncan ? Unless you were born with a zip up the back of your head you can only truthfully say that experience has taught us that the Labour party has abandoned their Socialist past to become a right wing group who support the city of London fat cats.
Common sense tells us that in a desire to cling on to the healthy Scottish block vote that they have enjoyed for so long, they have continued to speak in left leaning terms while the real power brokers in Westminster were shafting the North by buying into the Capatalist dream so dearly loved by the city Spivs (do you remember what Mervin King from the bank of England said.... "a few unemployed in the north, is a price worth paying for stability in London ")
Duncan, you will be well known in labour circles and many people will trust you. most people are just trying to scratch a living and simply do not have the time or sometimes even the intellect to look deeply into political arguments.
They hear someone like you making statements and they think that it must be true cos you know all about politics...so if you were to leave the Labour party and join the independence movement it would send shock waves throughout the labour party. More importantly it would force them to relly start thinking about their roots and who they really want to represent.
The present labour party are 'Wolves in Sheeps clothing' and it needs to be brought to the attention of everyone in Scotland.
At the moment you are part of the biggest lie visited on the good people of our nation, people living in abject poverty, kids being brought up with very little chance of ever making it in the world through lack of education or life chances.
The socialist utopia that you dream about happening some day (Alice in Wonderland stuff tbh) will be too late for these kids Duncan.
Alll your crap about a world without borders is another 'never never land' dream that gives you the Psychological 'get out of jail card' that allows you to sit around on your lying arse watching your people being deceived, while you pretend to watch the sky looking for the return of the 'true labour movement'
Join the real radical movement that will make the people of Scotland sovereign Duncan, and then as the people of England see what we can acheive they will soon rally around the first person who rises up in England to offer them soverenty in their own country. REAL DIFFERENCE as apposed to pie in the sky.
Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant Duncan but I feel so strongly about the disgusting betrayal of the Scots by your party. You may very well mod this out but I know you will see it and so I hope you will give it some long and careful thought.
#
2012-01-16 20:32
No offence patrick but no matter how its spun the Labour Administration of Blair was seen to give Scotland a Devolved Parliment. Thats a pretty big deal and holds a lot of currency for Labour voters.
#
2012-01-16 19:24
O/T,
"Labour is no longer electable"
Top Labour advisor defects to the Tories.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
"Labour is no longer electable"
Top Labour advisor defects to the Tories.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-01-16 19:40
Quote:
Did we not recently have Paul McBride QC say the opposite to Wallace?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness QC
Did we not recently have Paul McBride QC say the opposite to Wallace?
#
2012-01-16 20:30
Alx1
How on Earth can you step from Labour to Tory if you have one ounce of integrity and belief in the base values.
It is clear to me that the jump was easy because in England there is a narrow gap between the parties.
In Scotland they are PRETENDING to support the original values but are constrained to follow the "wider electable platform".
Who is for the PEOPLE and who is for the PARTY
How on Earth can you step from Labour to Tory if you have one ounce of integrity and belief in the base values.
It is clear to me that the jump was easy because in England there is a narrow gap between the parties.
In Scotland they are PRETENDING to support the original values but are constrained to follow the "wider electable platform".
Who is for the PEOPLE and who is for the PARTY
#
2012-01-16 21:12
My thoughts exactly clootie.
I will, as we all should, make plenty of hay with Labour adopting the Tory mantle.
I will, as we all should, make plenty of hay with Labour adopting the Tory mantle.
#
2012-01-17 07:18
There are way to many who put party before people, career before constituent and ambition before care. As for the main 3 UK parties, you couldn't put a fag paper between them. There is no such thing as clear water poltics, everybody wants to hold what they call the middle ground and are afraid to set out a stall with the exception of the tories (we all know where they stand), the SNP and the so called fringe parties. The main parties have lost the courage to make a case and stand by their beliefs.
But don't get me started.
But don't get me started.
#
2012-01-16 20:05
Pace Aix1
"Labour is no longer electable"
Top Labour advisor defects to the Tories.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
Thanks for the link. Thought for a minute Blair had been ennobled as "Lord Boozier!"
"Labour is no longer electable"
Top Labour advisor defects to the Tories.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...
Thanks for the link. Thought for a minute Blair had been ennobled as "Lord Boozier!"
#
2012-01-16 20:36
Channel 4 News Misinformation that Joan McAlpine claimed "those who were against independence were anti-Scottish".
Joan said that those who lined up to hand our sovereignty to Westminster are anti-Scottish.
Joan said that those who lined up to hand our sovereignty to Westminster are anti-Scottish.
#
2012-01-16 20:44
I actually had to switch off when their reporter Gary Gibbon asked a classroom of 15 year olds in a Glasgow school "Alex Salmond intends to give you the franchise when you're 16 or 17. Hands up those who think Alex Salmond is only giving you the vote to help him win? Who thinks that's what he's up to?"
I kid you not.
Will watch it again on Channel 4+1 so that I can see how the rest panned out.
I used to quite like Ch 4 News, certainly compared to the rest but increasingly fear they may be bigger Labour luvvies than the Grauniad.
20.25 watched it again and there wasn't much more to see but Gary Gibbon's use of the question "who thinks that's what he's up to?" is typical of the Southern media view of "Salmond the chancer" and "slippery Salmond".
It seems entirely beyond them that Scots weren't hoodwinked into voting for Alex Salmond as their belief that he must have somehow tricked them is so well embedded.
I kid you not.
Will watch it again on Channel 4+1 so that I can see how the rest panned out.
I used to quite like Ch 4 News, certainly compared to the rest but increasingly fear they may be bigger Labour luvvies than the Grauniad.
20.25 watched it again and there wasn't much more to see but Gary Gibbon's use of the question "who thinks that's what he's up to?" is typical of the Southern media view of "Salmond the chancer" and "slippery Salmond".
It seems entirely beyond them that Scots weren't hoodwinked into voting for Alex Salmond as their belief that he must have somehow tricked them is so well embedded.
#
2012-01-16 20:47
Quoting farrochie:
Noticed that too. The overall coverage was fair, but it is worth pointing out the inaccuracy to Ch4.
Channel 4 News Misinformation that Joan McAlpine claimed "those who were against independence were anti-Scottish".
Joan said that those who lined up to hand our sovereignty to Westminster are anti-Scottish.
Noticed that too. The overall coverage was fair, but it is worth pointing out the inaccuracy to Ch4.
#
2012-01-16 21:44
Yes spotted that too her twitter account for those of who have one is @katierazz, to think as well the overall Editor of Ch 4 News Jim Gray is a Scot, ah well. Does anyone have an e mail for Katie Razzall?
itn.co
#
2012-01-16 20:40
Dear Blubber
Would David Cameron have the right to send in the troops to prevent the referendum if westminster has not agreed to it ?
What would the impact of such a decision be ?
Would David Cameron have the right to send in the troops to prevent the referendum if westminster has not agreed to it ?
What would the impact of such a decision be ?
#
2012-01-16 20:50
Are you and mato21 going to start another series of 'blether with blubber' ?
Hope so, that was hilarious yesterday.
Toodle oo the noo.
Hope so, that was hilarious yesterday.
Toodle oo the noo.
#
2012-01-16 21:02
Dear Govan
You again.
In answer to your question David may wish to send a few wee ill-nourished southerners to quell the restless Jocks, but our strategy is that every kilt wearing male will line up at the border with a rose, no, make that a thistle between their teeth and on the command, well they will all know what to do That will be the end of that little foray. The word will soon spread and we will be viewed with different eyes thereafter
You will note my one answer covers both your questions
Toodle-OO-The -Noo Flubber wi' Blubber
You again.
In answer to your question David may wish to send a few wee ill-nourished southerners to quell the restless Jocks, but our strategy is that every kilt wearing male will line up at the border with a rose, no, make that a thistle between their teeth and on the command, well they will all know what to do That will be the end of that little foray. The word will soon spread and we will be viewed with different eyes thereafter
You will note my one answer covers both your questions
Toodle-OO-The -Noo Flubber wi' Blubber
#
2012-01-16 20:48
I posted this on another article. It's relevant here:
All this talk of "legality" and "only an advisory referendum" runs counter to what Dr Matt Qvortrup has stated:
The basic principle in international law is that the seceding country (in this case Scotland) decides whether it wants to become independent.
To use but two examples, Montenegro did not have to ask Serbia to secede in 2006, nor did Estonia seek the Soviet Union’s permission to become independent in 1990 and clearly it would not have been granted it.
The fundamental rule is that countries become independent when they are recognised by the international community.
It seems to me that, if we are to find ourselves on a collision course with Westminster we will find plenty of international friends who will readily recognize the referendum as legal.
All this talk of "legality" and "only an advisory referendum" runs counter to what Dr Matt Qvortrup has stated:
The basic principle in international law is that the seceding country (in this case Scotland) decides whether it wants to become independent.
To use but two examples, Montenegro did not have to ask Serbia to secede in 2006, nor did Estonia seek the Soviet Union’s permission to become independent in 1990 and clearly it would not have been granted it.
The fundamental rule is that countries become independent when they are recognised by the international community.
It seems to me that, if we are to find ourselves on a collision course with Westminster we will find plenty of international friends who will readily recognize the referendum as legal.
#
2012-01-16 21:05
How can a referendum possibly be illegal. This is utter nonsense from lord Wallace. Everyone is entitled to freedom of expression etc. What law would be broken? He doesn't say yet the BBC report it almost as fact.
#
2012-01-16 21:08
He's giving a lecture at the end of the week It may be at Glasgow Uni of that I'm not certain but where ever I'm sure he will reveal all
#
2012-01-16 23:45
Quoting mato21:
Well he showed us his ( gluteus maximus) today and I don't think the other side will reveal anything to write home to mother about.
He's giving a lecture at the end of the week It may be at Glasgow Uni of that I'm not certain but where ever I'm sure he will reveal all
Well he showed us his ( gluteus maximus) today and I don't think the other side will reveal anything to write home to mother about.
#
2012-01-17 00:08
CMD
A think his hurdies are by their best I'm sure Mother would be less than interested
A think his hurdies are by their best I'm sure Mother would be less than interested
#
2012-01-16 21:28
The AV referendum was legal, it just wasnt legally binding.
AS says the independence referendum won't be legally binding, Wallace says it will be illegal (without saying against which law of course).
AS says the independence referendum won't be legally binding, Wallace says it will be illegal (without saying against which law of course).
#
2012-01-16 21:31
I'm currently following the Ron Paul Revolution in the GOP (Republican party) presidential election race in the US. There are so many parallels regarding the hostile media and revolutionary opposition to the existing imbedded institutions between the Ron Paul Revolution and our revolution.
The Ron Paul revolution is a phenomenon which exists completely outside of the MSM and has made Ron Paul the only valid opposition to the hugely funded Romney (Neocon Bush Clone)... He is a champion of the constitution and is anti illegal war. It should show us Scottish independence, liberty and freedom fighters that a movement and revolution can become so powerful when you fight for a cause... I just hope we get a few folk of this skill on board with the campaign though.... www.youtube.com/.../
The Ron Paul revolution is a phenomenon which exists completely outside of the MSM and has made Ron Paul the only valid opposition to the hugely funded Romney (Neocon Bush Clone)... He is a champion of the constitution and is anti illegal war. It should show us Scottish independence, liberty and freedom fighters that a movement and revolution can become so powerful when you fight for a cause... I just hope we get a few folk of this skill on board with the campaign though.... www.youtube.com/.../
#
2012-01-16 22:02
Sorry.... typing on my Galaxy S2 while looking for links at the same time. Check out Ron Pauls prediction about Freddie Mac & Fannie May back in 2001 (actually I think it was early 2002)... but still about 6 years prior to the global economic collapse. www.youtube.com/.../
Incredible.... and still the US and UK MSM ignore him and call him crazy.
Check out smarny Romney at the end (sitting next to McCain) in 2008. If this Neo con war monger becomes US president, then it really doesn't matter whether Scotland is independent or not... we will be facing WW3 after a declaration of war on Iran... www.youtube.com/.../ (ps. Obama is no less after Iran.)
www.youtube.com/.../
First they ignore you... then they ridicule you.... then they fight you... then you win!!!
www.youtube.com/.../
...that was 2008. 2012 is a new story...
www.youtube.com/.../
*;0)
Incredible.... and still the US and UK MSM ignore him and call him crazy.
Check out smarny Romney at the end (sitting next to McCain) in 2008. If this Neo con war monger becomes US president, then it really doesn't matter whether Scotland is independent or not... we will be facing WW3 after a declaration of war on Iran... www.youtube.com/.../ (ps. Obama is no less after Iran.)
www.youtube.com/.../
First they ignore you... then they ridicule you.... then they fight you... then you win!!!
www.youtube.com/.../
...that was 2008. 2012 is a new story...
www.youtube.com/.../
*;0)
#
2012-01-16 21:48
All this nonsense about our referendum being illegal.If you believe that,then you believe that Scotland can only ever get independence if London decides to give us it.Which would mean that the Scottish people do not have the right to self determination.And we all know that is utter nonsense.
#
2012-01-16 23:07
Corm, you have believed more of their lies, my friend.
They gave us devolution to 'kill nationalism stone dead' and then even devolution was forced upon them by the European's as according to people who were at the negotiations Blair didn't want Scotland to have a parliament as he could envisage it would lead to Independence. This was the Tories main objection as well.
They then set about designing a voting system that would ensure this could never happen, do you remember the complete shock on maggie currans face among others when the SNP won our majority ?
Even they themselves admitted that this was supposed to never happen. and with a PR system in place along with all these unionist buddies agreeing that they wouldn't go into coalition with the SNP, we were effectively frozen out of the political landscape of our own nation.
If you have any doubt's ask your self why Jack Straw repeatedly refused to release the papers that would show the details of the negotiations/discussions etc of the labour party high command during the referendum discussions.
The labour party were forced into giving us devolution by the European laws that will force the tories to but out of our independence referendum.
Not for the first time, the disgusting labour party deceived the good people of Scotland, telling us how they were for us, while sticking a knife into our back's for the thirty pieces of English silver.
Once we get our independence, the documents will begin to be released that will let the People of our nation see how badly we were betrayed by this bunch of quislings in the so called Scottish labour party.
They decieved the
They gave us devolution to 'kill nationalism stone dead' and then even devolution was forced upon them by the European's as according to people who were at the negotiations Blair didn't want Scotland to have a parliament as he could envisage it would lead to Independence. This was the Tories main objection as well.
They then set about designing a voting system that would ensure this could never happen, do you remember the complete shock on maggie currans face among others when the SNP won our majority ?
Even they themselves admitted that this was supposed to never happen. and with a PR system in place along with all these unionist buddies agreeing that they wouldn't go into coalition with the SNP, we were effectively frozen out of the political landscape of our own nation.
If you have any doubt's ask your self why Jack Straw repeatedly refused to release the papers that would show the details of the negotiations/discussions etc of the labour party high command during the referendum discussions.
The labour party were forced into giving us devolution by the European laws that will force the tories to but out of our independence referendum.
Not for the first time, the disgusting labour party deceived the good people of Scotland, telling us how they were for us, while sticking a knife into our back's for the thirty pieces of English silver.
Once we get our independence, the documents will begin to be released that will let the People of our nation see how badly we were betrayed by this bunch of quislings in the so called Scottish labour party.
They decieved the
#
2012-01-16 23:50
# patrickotic 2012-01-16 22:07
You beat me to it and did it better than me. I don't have the patience for longer posts.
LOL:@)
You beat me to it and did it better than me. I don't have the patience for longer posts.
LOL:@)
#
2012-01-18 19:52
Quoting call me dave:
LOL I just noticed that In my enthusiasm I didn't complete the post ! so feel free to complete the sentence:
They Deceived The....
# patrickotic 2012-01-16 22:07
You beat me to it and did it better than me. I don't have the patience for longer posts.
LOL:@)
LOL I just noticed that In my enthusiasm I didn't complete the post ! so feel free to complete the sentence:
They Deceived The....
#
2012-01-16 23:38
While obviously it's nobody's business what the rest of the UK call themselves post independence, but WENI sounds snappy!
#
2012-01-17 02:29
Re the latest LibDum cunning plan to claim any referendum on Scotland's independence has to include the voters of England, Wales and N.Ireland.
Once the news spreads that RumpUK will have to re-apply for membership of the EU, same as Scotland, that is going to really put the UKIP cat among the Westminster pidgeons. Imagine the whoops of delight from Redmond, Cash, and the rest of the bug-eyed anti-EU Tories. It would virtually guarantee a massive YES vote from the "little Englander" majority down there.
Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of their Bullingdon Club yahoos are probably beginning to think conning the LibDums into being their human shield, wasn't such a wizard wheeze after all.
Once the news spreads that RumpUK will have to re-apply for membership of the EU, same as Scotland, that is going to really put the UKIP cat among the Westminster pidgeons. Imagine the whoops of delight from Redmond, Cash, and the rest of the bug-eyed anti-EU Tories. It would virtually guarantee a massive YES vote from the "little Englander" majority down there.
Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of their Bullingdon Club yahoos are probably beginning to think conning the LibDums into being their human shield, wasn't such a wizard wheeze after all.
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