Thursday, 26 January 2012 06:40
233 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter 
An exclusive poll for the New Statesman magazine by polling company ICD research, and published to coincide with the publication of the Scottish government's consultation paper on the independence referendum, shows that the independence case is making strong headway.
According to the headline figures for the poll, 44% of Scots are in favour of independence, with 45% opposed. The result is well within the normal margin of error for polls, meaning that the two options are effectively neck-and-neck as the campaign begins in earnest.
In other good news for the Scottish government, an overwhelming 72% of Scots polled say that they agree that the Scottish government alone should determine the timing and question of the historic referendum. On this issue, public opinion in Scotland is markedly different from opinion in the rest of the UK. Of those polled across the UK, 41% say that the question and timing should be determined by Westminster, with only 34% in agreement with the Scottish government's position that these are matters for the Scottish Parliament and the people of Scotland.
Amongst those across the UK, the poll found a majority in favour of Scottish independence, with 38% in favour as opposed to 34% against. However most voters throughout the UK do not believe that Scotland will be better off as a result of independence, with only 20% of UK voters believing this would be the case, whereas 52% of UK-wide voters believe that Scotland would be worse off after independence. The report in the New Statesman did not give the figures for the response of Scottish voters to this question.
Conversely, 36 per cent of UK voters believe that England would benefit if Scotland left the UK, compared with 34 per cent who believe it would suffer. This finding shows the effect of the "subsidy junkie" myth which has been widely propagated by the anti-independence parties and the UK media. One of the prime tasks of pro-independence campaigners will be to overturn this myth amongst the Scottish electorate.
The survey found clear support across the UK for so-called 'devo max'. Asked if Scotland should be given full control over its tax and spending, 51% agreed with only 32% opposed. Again the poll did not give a breakdown of the Scottish response to this question, although other polls recently have shown that there is widespread support for such a move within Scotland.
The poll confirms the findings of other recent polls which show that Scots are increasingly leaning towards independence and restoring full control of the nation's finances and destiny to the Scottish Parliament. With more than 2 years to go before the decision is taken, the final result is far too close to call and for the pro-independence camp there is everything to play for. With a buoyant SNP up against demoralised and divided anti-independence parties, Scotland is closer to returning to its rightful place amongst the sovereign nations of the world than at any time during the past 300 years.
The poll of 1000 people was conducted by ICD for the New Statesman on 21st and 22nd January.
Welcoming the poll the Director of the SNP's Referendum Campaign Angus Robertson MP said:
"This is an excellent poll result confirming that support for independence is running neck and neck with 44% in favour to only 45% against.
"And coming on the day the First Minister confirmed the question voters in Scotland will be asked on independence this is just the beginning of the campaign and the great debate that we will have across the country.
"Results like this show that independence for Scotland is achievable and with more and more people supporting the principle that decisions about what happens in Scotland should be made by the people of Scotland it is a very welcome result."
Comments
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2012-01-26 12:11
Be aware. It seems that the media are hyping this up as a competion beteen the two consultations, i.e. who gets the most replies will be claimed to be the winner.
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2012-01-26 15:07
Remember, also, that it is important to respond to Mickey Moore's consultative document. It is a UK wide consultation so if we dont respond the UK government are likely to push for that response to be the way forward. It isnt right that UK government should be listening to views of Wales, England and Northern Ireland so get it filled in, please, and encourage as many others as you can to do so.
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2012-01-26 03:03
We may lose, we may win
But we will never be here again
And no chance of taking it easy
But we will never be here again
And no chance of taking it easy
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2012-01-26 14:42
The Eagles.....Hotel California I think but certainly from the Hotel LP. How many points is that worth then?
VOTE YES.
VOTE YES.
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2012-01-26 03:15
It's certainly my observation that support for independence is rising, so a most welcome poll.
Meanwhile, over in the New Statesman Johann Lamont seems to suggest that Alex Salmond is motivated by racism,“What is my problem with David Cameron? He is a Tory. What is Alex Salmond's problem with him? He's English."
newstatesman.com/.../...
Meanwhile, over in the New Statesman Johann Lamont seems to suggest that Alex Salmond is motivated by racism,“What is my problem with David Cameron? He is a Tory. What is Alex Salmond's problem with him? He's English."
newstatesman.com/.../...
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2012-01-26 03:19
Johann Lamont has a lot to learn and no time to learn it.
She thinks that cheap shots in this debate gain her points and she is truly soporific in public debate. She cannot deal with the big questions because she doesn't even see them
She thinks that cheap shots in this debate gain her points and she is truly soporific in public debate. She cannot deal with the big questions because she doesn't even see them
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2012-01-26 03:23
I'm actually really curious to know what she thinks Alex's problem with Gordon Brown was.
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2012-01-26 10:29
Quoting sneckedagain:
Sneckedagain you are completely correct in that view.
I am sure she has some redeeming features but she doesn't get the big picture and in my opinion has no vision beyond the basic levels of government. Elevated to a position she will struggle with and content to live on handouts from the Uk parliament.
The Labour party will hand over the oil;gas and whisky and all that without questioning why.
All this talk about families living across the border stuff being separated and the losing of ties is so weak and dated.
Utter nonsense get on a train or a boat nothing will change and we will still be able to get BBC (EBC) on the telly.
We want a person with the vision to see what Scotland can and will do, not a person who will condemned Scotland to a the status of a lacky, subserviant to another country.
She will not last beyond the referendum which ever way it plays out.
Johann Lamont has a lot to learn and no time to learn it.
She thinks that cheap shots in this debate gain her points and she is truly soporific in public debate. She cannot deal with the big questions because she doesn't even see them
Sneckedagain you are completely correct in that view.
I am sure she has some redeeming features but she doesn't get the big picture and in my opinion has no vision beyond the basic levels of government. Elevated to a position she will struggle with and content to live on handouts from the Uk parliament.
The Labour party will hand over the oil;gas and whisky and all that without questioning why.
All this talk about families living across the border stuff being separated and the losing of ties is so weak and dated.
Utter nonsense get on a train or a boat nothing will change and we will still be able to get BBC (EBC) on the telly.
We want a person with the vision to see what Scotland can and will do, not a person who will condemned Scotland to a the status of a lacky, subserviant to another country.
She will not last beyond the referendum which ever way it plays out.
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2012-01-26 11:24
Quoting call me dave:
That was a good piece of oratory! It begged the question "what are they?"
I've been trying to think of the redeeming features for quite a few minutes now.... no, still nothing.....
I am sure she has some redeeming features but....
That was a good piece of oratory! It begged the question "what are they?"
I've been trying to think of the redeeming features for quite a few minutes now.... no, still nothing.....
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2012-01-26 11:52
I thimk I know where she's coming from. being a former "Young Socialist" myself.
She seems to be rooted to the old Marxist dialectic of "internationalis m" but seems not to understand it very well.
She seems to think that "internationalis m" for Scots is only available through London while the whole dialectic actually assumed smaller nations working together to curb the power of larger ones!
She seems to forget that in order be "internatioanlsi t", you must start from a nation in the first place!
She seems to be rooted to the old Marxist dialectic of "internationalis m" but seems not to understand it very well.
She seems to think that "internationalis m" for Scots is only available through London while the whole dialectic actually assumed smaller nations working together to curb the power of larger ones!
She seems to forget that in order be "internatioanlsi t", you must start from a nation in the first place!
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2012-01-28 19:52
Ironically the United Kingdom has done more than any other state, including fictional ones, to foil social justice and internationalis m.
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2012-01-26 14:50
Now wonder A S was laughing after Lamont's usual bunch of negative barbs when he referred to her promises of a positive campaign for the union.
Her problem and that of her colleagues is there is NO positive case for the union.
Salmond's leadership choice of keeping it positive in the face of constant unionist negative barking has been a master stroke as evidenced by the May election sensation and the fact that Independence is already neck and neck with the status quo and we are not even out of January yet.
VOTE YES
Her problem and that of her colleagues is there is NO positive case for the union.
Salmond's leadership choice of keeping it positive in the face of constant unionist negative barking has been a master stroke as evidenced by the May election sensation and the fact that Independence is already neck and neck with the status quo and we are not even out of January yet.
VOTE YES
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2012-01-26 10:33
The lady, for lack of a more acceptable term, is supported by the close-knit,likeminded clique that surround her. These pat her back and tell her how wonderful she is. Obviously, as they are all alike, there is no one to tell her how dire and wrong she is. The MSM, of course, lap up her bitter bile like a cat sups cream.
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2012-01-26 15:13
Auld Bob, she wouldnt listen anyway, if there was someone to tell her. I have found Labour MSPs to have closed minds. They are right even when wrong. I think that, too, is the reason they cant move on from the past. They realise the voting public are deserting them and only change might help to restore confidence in them but the cannot change as it is not in their nature. You have to have an open mind and be flexible and adaptable in order to move forward. They have not evolved and never will.
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2012-01-26 06:50
How many people were polled in Scotland? What is the point of a poll on Scottish independence which asks a handful of people in Scotland for their opinion? As the article says 1000 people were polled, I think it's safe to assume that only about 100 Scottish resident voters were involved.
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2012-01-26 09:13
When I saw this poll yesterday in the New Statesman someone had posted a comment questioning the 'validity' of the research company as they are not members of the British Polling Council.
So, I have some doubts also.
So, I have some doubts also.
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2012-01-26 07:23
I can't imagine anyone who is for independence changing their mind over the next 2 years. But I can imagine that a fair proportion of the undecideds will come off the fence on the side of independence; and that a not insignificant number of unionists will cross over completely.
Timing is everything, and perhaps wee Wendy saw the writing on the wall, but too late.
Timing is everything, and perhaps wee Wendy saw the writing on the wall, but too late.
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2012-01-26 08:18
The contrast between the current Scottish Government and the Westminster policies will convince many of what type of world they want to live in.
The total lack of a positive case for Scotland by the unionist parties is highlighting that the true benefit of the union is for those in the Westminster club and the City of London markets.
The Labour in Scotland camp and the LibDems have not only lost direction they have lost integrity.The lack of effective leadership of these party sub-sets is an embarressment to Scotland.
The Jim Wallace scare story last night on the £44billion trade to England was clear evidence of their future campaign.
Obiously a prepared story ready to be dropped in at the appropriate moment.A nation ready to threaten a fellow EU member with sanctions - is this a nation you would want to remain in partnership with - Stay with us OR ELSE!
I hope they continue with the scare store tactic and look forward to the increasing transfer of people from the "don't know" position to the "YES"
The total lack of a positive case for Scotland by the unionist parties is highlighting that the true benefit of the union is for those in the Westminster club and the City of London markets.
The Labour in Scotland camp and the LibDems have not only lost direction they have lost integrity.The lack of effective leadership of these party sub-sets is an embarressment to Scotland.
The Jim Wallace scare story last night on the £44billion trade to England was clear evidence of their future campaign.
Obiously a prepared story ready to be dropped in at the appropriate moment.A nation ready to threaten a fellow EU member with sanctions - is this a nation you would want to remain in partnership with - Stay with us OR ELSE!
I hope they continue with the scare store tactic and look forward to the increasing transfer of people from the "don't know" position to the "YES"
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2012-01-26 09:49
As far as Wallace is concerned and his remarks about the 'threat' to our trade with England Nicola skewered him beautifully and left him frothing and floundering in her wake.
As regards Lamont Lesley Riddoch destroyed her and her pitiful attempts at debate without breaking sweat.
A statement yesterday by Lamont that the main reason for Labour's defeat last May was that 'The people of Scotland were not listening to Labour' illustrates perfectly how totally out of touch and useless they have become.
The situation was that 'Labour were not listening to the people of Scotland'.
As regards Lamont Lesley Riddoch destroyed her and her pitiful attempts at debate without breaking sweat.
A statement yesterday by Lamont that the main reason for Labour's defeat last May was that 'The people of Scotland were not listening to Labour' illustrates perfectly how totally out of touch and useless they have become.
The situation was that 'Labour were not listening to the people of Scotland'.
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2012-01-26 11:40
Jim Wallace was talking completely out of his backside when he came up with the trade barrier scare story.
I'm actually in the business of export/import so you could say I have hands on experience
Currently there are no trade barriers between any EU country or between EU and EFTA trading partners. and there will not be for the forseable future.
Post independence, both Scotland AND England will be successor states and will automatically remain members of the EU (members may have a vote, but its taken as a shu in) as members of the EU, there will not in any shape or form be any barriers. Even if Scotlnd decides to opt OUT of the EU and become a EFTA trading partner, there will not be any barriers in any shape or form. The whole raison d'etre of the EU is about free movement of goods an people within the EU. So when I heard Wallace come out with the barrier garbage, I knew he was grasping at the last straws in the pack.
You could say 'Dead Union walking the green mile' its over
I'm actually in the business of export/import so you could say I have hands on experience
Currently there are no trade barriers between any EU country or between EU and EFTA trading partners. and there will not be for the forseable future.
Post independence, both Scotland AND England will be successor states and will automatically remain members of the EU (members may have a vote, but its taken as a shu in) as members of the EU, there will not in any shape or form be any barriers. Even if Scotlnd decides to opt OUT of the EU and become a EFTA trading partner, there will not be any barriers in any shape or form. The whole raison d'etre of the EU is about free movement of goods an people within the EU. So when I heard Wallace come out with the barrier garbage, I knew he was grasping at the last straws in the pack.
You could say 'Dead Union walking the green mile' its over
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2012-01-26 15:09
The problem for people like Wallace is that they are so used to trotting out scare stories like the Trade Barriers which are printed verbatim by their poodles in the media without question, they are totally stumped when confronted with a simple challenge question.
In this case: What Trade Barriers? As gus1940 said Wallace was left frothing and floundering. I've no doubt most of those watching were delighted when Nicola took him on full face.
What we have in the SNP Government, in abundance, is INTELLIGENCE and people who can think on their feet and who can articulate ideas at the drop of a hat.
You can bet that Wallace and others will tread much more warily in future if they have any sense, failing that they will continue to amuse us as they are skewered on their own ill thought out statements.
VOTE YES
In this case: What Trade Barriers? As gus1940 said Wallace was left frothing and floundering. I've no doubt most of those watching were delighted when Nicola took him on full face.
What we have in the SNP Government, in abundance, is INTELLIGENCE and people who can think on their feet and who can articulate ideas at the drop of a hat.
You can bet that Wallace and others will tread much more warily in future if they have any sense, failing that they will continue to amuse us as they are skewered on their own ill thought out statements.
VOTE YES
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2012-01-26 15:16
Aye, she cannot take an honest look at what has happened. Self evaluation does not exist within Labour. I remember on a debate for the Labour leadership in Scotland, Lamont stated that they lost the Holyrood election because they had no policy on Council Tax! I really think they've lost it big time since this is the level on which they operate.
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2012-01-26 10:44
You have to laugh at such scare stories. The trade between Scotland and England is a two-way exchange. The threat of cutting off the supply of House of Commons scotch, smoked salmon and such like is neither here nor there but the supply of oil, gas, and the electricity grid would certainly make a difference. After all there has been undersea cables to NI fof many years and Scotland has an alternative route for our green, clean power and fuels.
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2012-01-26 15:02
Wallace also claimed that he was trying to prevent the "legal" question over the referendum ending up in the Supreme court which is pretty rich from him considering he was responsible for the Supreme court having final say over the Scottish courts in the first place (and for this exact purpose).
Disingenuous to say the least.
Disingenuous to say the least.
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2012-01-26 08:31
Scotland also buy (pro rata) more from UK based London head office firms. Most world multinationals, tax avoiding.
HMRC negotiated £25Billions in tax avoidance by multinationals, making £Billions, in the City of London.
HMRC negotiated £25Billions in tax avoidance by multinationals, making £Billions, in the City of London.
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2012-01-26 08:43
Aye clootie saw that little gem being dropped last night,did'nt go down as well as he thought though.Watching JL last night makes you realise why Labour are in such total confusion,if last night was anything to go by then we're off to a good start.
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2012-01-26 10:04
Quoting gus1940:
Johann Lamont was there, well they vote with them all the time so no difference. New labour was Maggies finest achievement according to Maggie.
Why was there no Tory on the panel?
Johann Lamont was there, well they vote with them all the time so no difference. New labour was Maggies finest achievement according to Maggie.
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2012-01-26 10:48
They couldn't find one. They are, after all an endangered species, even worse than Giant Pandas, in Scotland.
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2012-01-26 11:17
It wouldn't have made any difference. They all seem to hold similar views when it comes to talking Scotland down.
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2012-01-26 11:38
I think the un-elected Lord was deemed to be representing the government.
Presumably they didn't want to be embarrassed by sending "Panda" Mundell
Presumably they didn't want to be embarrassed by sending "Panda" Mundell
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2012-01-26 13:31
Quoting gus1940:
I think there was a ballast problem on the old Royal yacht andmundel volunteered
Why was there no Tory on the panel?
I think there was a ballast problem on the old Royal yacht andmundel volunteered
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2012-01-26 15:19
I wonder if it was because Ruth Davidson is extremely confident when it comes to talking, she may not be an experienced debater and has still to learn that skill. After all, she has only been in politics for 9 months and party leader for 2 months. She's on a steep learning curve and wont appear anywhere that she's likely to make an erse of herself.
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2012-01-26 08:50
Jim Wallace's stunning performance on the BBC debate last night must have on its own added a few percentage points to the independence cause. What a load of tosh from that ermine clad idiot.
In fact I'm glad that the duo of Wallace and Lamont were on the panel. My views on Riddoch have changed, she was excellent. Sturgeon could benifit from a louder voice.
In fact I'm glad that the duo of Wallace and Lamont were on the panel. My views on Riddoch have changed, she was excellent. Sturgeon could benifit from a louder voice.
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2012-01-26 09:25
Jim Wallace's performance last night on the BBC debate was something akin to watching a car crash in slow motion. Truly horrible and grotesque but compulsive viewing.
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2012-01-26 09:26
UpSpake
"My views on Riddoch have changed, she was excellent."
I totally agree - She presented very rationale and sensible arguements. This just about balanced the rigged audience mix. The BBC really must think we are really stupid when they so obviously manipulate the makeup of such forums.
One move to promote JL backfired - The more time they gave Lamont the deeper the hole she dug!
"My views on Riddoch have changed, she was excellent."
I totally agree - She presented very rationale and sensible arguements. This just about balanced the rigged audience mix. The BBC really must think we are really stupid when they so obviously manipulate the makeup of such forums.
One move to promote JL backfired - The more time they gave Lamont the deeper the hole she dug!
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2012-01-26 10:29
Aye, Ms Riddoch did very well. She burst a few bubbles of her own. Stand out was hammering into Lamont on 16-17 year old vote.
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2012-01-26 11:43
Agreed - Lesley Riddoch was superb. She cut though the unionist bulls**t time and again.
Probably explains why she has all but disappeared from BBC.
Probably explains why she has all but disappeared from BBC.
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2012-01-26 12:18
I could not believe Wallace's reaction to the comment from the guy at the back.
He was stunned into silence. It seemed to suck the energy from him.
It must be the only time he has been described in such damning terms, being an ermine clad Lord from Westminster, where manners are the order of the day.
He was stunned into silence. It seemed to suck the energy from him.
It must be the only time he has been described in such damning terms, being an ermine clad Lord from Westminster, where manners are the order of the day.
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2012-01-26 09:05
Jim Wallace's creditability has slipped even further, whilst Ms Riddoch gave an excellent performance by putting both Labour and Westminster under the spotlight. Nicola was her usual controlled self. The debate has started and the SNP are well ahead at this stage, but lets not get to complacment but get out there and win hearts and minds for our Country.
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2012-01-26 09:35
Absolutely OT but I was trawling worl newspapers for any comments on the referendum and found this ,
theaustralian.com.au/.../...
theaustralian.com.au/.../...
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2012-01-26 09:35
Be very cautious in the use of this poll, ICD do not show tables, or methodology. They polled 1000 people across the UK therefore less than 90 in Scotland as a result the margin of error is huge.
I will repeat what I said yesterday, we would be the first to howl in the unionist used a poll of this type in this manner, we should not fall to there standard we are better and we can do better. By all means report it but please ensure it has the necessary health warning
I will repeat what I said yesterday, we would be the first to howl in the unionist used a poll of this type in this manner, we should not fall to there standard we are better and we can do better. By all means report it but please ensure it has the necessary health warning
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2012-01-26 10:27
It is not a poll conducted by the Scottish Government and therefore those conducting the polls are responsible for their own spin on them. We can only take at face value what they put out. No doubt we are going to see many polls between now and the actual referendum. Get ready for the roller-coaster.
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2012-01-26 09:42
Clootie
The BBC will "balance" the programme as far as is possible by having similar numbers of Labour SNP Tory and Lib Dem supporters by this of course skews the audience in an independence referendum,
Did you notice the subliminal bias by BBC graphics dept during the afternoon coverage showing the saltire as a small cog in the larger union wheel.
The BBC will "balance" the programme as far as is possible by having similar numbers of Labour SNP Tory and Lib Dem supporters by this of course skews the audience in an independence referendum,
Did you notice the subliminal bias by BBC graphics dept during the afternoon coverage showing the saltire as a small cog in the larger union wheel.
#
2012-01-26 10:22
Quoting Ready to Start:
Do you really consider that BBC Scotland, balance, and trust, are synonymous?
I have been on a few programmes over the years and on the application you are specifically asked for you political persuasions. Of course it is easy to lie and say you are a Labour supporter to make it through the screen. Then there is the matter of the questions being pre moderated and selected, it is very easy for the BBC to rig the flavour of the audience and their responses.
However last night was car crash TV at it's very finest. I knew Lamont was bad, but I did not realise just how bad she is. She is programmed, and not even good shop steward material. Her delivery is incoherent and stilted, she cannot focus on what is being asked instead she wanders of in to some minefield of her own creation. She really should have stuck to teaching pre school weans. That is her level. Labour are in the deep stuff up to their nostrils. I actually feel sorry for Johann, because I am sure she is a good person under the Political posturing.
Wallace was utterly hilarious and Nicola finished him of in spectacular fashion, the man is a pompous balloon of the highest order. She nailed him beautifully on his scaremongering lies on trade barriers, his lip sweating spluttering babbling was a joy to watch. It can only get better.
Labour must be very worried about there poor showing now, even the audience were not responding to Lamont apart from the handful of diehards.
Well done Nicola. Your star continues to shine. I notice she never came to the rescue of Joan McAlpine when the hapless Lamont told yet another lie about her.
I wonder.....
Clootie
The BBC will "balance" the programme as far as is possible by having similar numbers of Labour SNP Tory and Lib Dem supporters by this of course skews the audience in an independence referendum,
Did you notice the subliminal bias by BBC graphics dept during the afternoon coverage showing the saltire as a small cog in the larger union wheel.
Do you really consider that BBC Scotland, balance, and trust, are synonymous?
I have been on a few programmes over the years and on the application you are specifically asked for you political persuasions. Of course it is easy to lie and say you are a Labour supporter to make it through the screen. Then there is the matter of the questions being pre moderated and selected, it is very easy for the BBC to rig the flavour of the audience and their responses.
However last night was car crash TV at it's very finest. I knew Lamont was bad, but I did not realise just how bad she is. She is programmed, and not even good shop steward material. Her delivery is incoherent and stilted, she cannot focus on what is being asked instead she wanders of in to some minefield of her own creation. She really should have stuck to teaching pre school weans. That is her level. Labour are in the deep stuff up to their nostrils. I actually feel sorry for Johann, because I am sure she is a good person under the Political posturing.
Wallace was utterly hilarious and Nicola finished him of in spectacular fashion, the man is a pompous balloon of the highest order. She nailed him beautifully on his scaremongering lies on trade barriers, his lip sweating spluttering babbling was a joy to watch. It can only get better.
Labour must be very worried about there poor showing now, even the audience were not responding to Lamont apart from the handful of diehards.
Well done Nicola. Your star continues to shine. I notice she never came to the rescue of Joan McAlpine when the hapless Lamont told yet another lie about her.
I wonder.....
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2012-01-26 11:15
I didn't see the cog wheel one.
I did notice BBC One news had a graphic on the video wall with the island physically in two as if caused by a catastrophic earthquake.
s9.postimage.org/.../...
Riddoch was pretty good. Will she be asked back?!
The guy who gave it to Wallace at the end. Classic stuff.
Is this Lamont?
www.youtube.com/.../
Is Scotsman backing 'yes'?
multimedia.pol.dk/.../...
I did notice BBC One news had a graphic on the video wall with the island physically in two as if caused by a catastrophic earthquake.
s9.postimage.org/.../...
Riddoch was pretty good. Will she be asked back?!
The guy who gave it to Wallace at the end. Classic stuff.
Is this Lamont?
www.youtube.com/.../
Is Scotsman backing 'yes'?
multimedia.pol.dk/.../...
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2012-01-26 10:33
Sturgeon was pointed - she skewered Wallace with ease.
Riddoch was measured and thoughful, that was unexpected..
Wallace was hilarious, all that was missing was a red nose, big shoes and a wig.
Lamont was truly awful, it was painful to watch her.
Riddoch was measured and thoughful, that was unexpected..
Wallace was hilarious, all that was missing was a red nose, big shoes and a wig.
Lamont was truly awful, it was painful to watch her.
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2012-01-26 15:23
Riddoch has been superb on many occasions recently. I think she'll be a real asset to any future debates or disussions. She's not daft, doesnt suffer fools gladly and calls it as she sees it.
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2012-01-26 10:46
This poll is good, like all polls never conclusive, but good. It certainly reflects the partition of the electorate as I believe it to be. The unionist vote split between the diehard and devo max camp and the independence vote solid. We've started other campaigns in worse positions to win out in the end. We're starting this one on equal footing with all to play for.
A number of good things came across in last night's beeb debate not least of which was the complete lack of positive policy from the unionist representatives . They did raise one and only one good point. Because people wish to vote for the status quo or devo max does not mean they are to be treated as pariahs or that they love Scotland any less, they have a different view and can be as strong in their belief as we are.
Obviously any politician in that camp is immediately suspect as to motive, reasoning and sanity. :0)
A number of good things came across in last night's beeb debate not least of which was the complete lack of positive policy from the unionist representatives . They did raise one and only one good point. Because people wish to vote for the status quo or devo max does not mean they are to be treated as pariahs or that they love Scotland any less, they have a different view and can be as strong in their belief as we are.
Obviously any politician in that camp is immediately suspect as to motive, reasoning and sanity. :0)
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2012-01-26 10:48
I visited the Spectator Coffee House and was horrified by the ignorance of the comments - worthy of the Daily Mail.
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2012-01-26 10:50
Listening to Call Kaye, the usual imbalance, anyway as happened last night from Ms Lamont, A Sarwar has said it again ....... raising the Brian Souter and Tommy Sheridan being on the extremes of those who support independence.
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2012-01-26 11:04
O/T
I've always said that no one does creative accounting like the westminster government!
Now that fact is becoming more clearer again, this time with the London Olympics.
To sell the Olympics to the public they said it would cost £2.4bln its now at £12bln and could top £24bln!
The UK government have quoted £33bln for HS2. I wonder how much more this controvesial project will eventually cost?
And we trust them to be honest with the GERS report????
Its about time someone was put in prison for London overspend lying!
Now you know where all our money is going too! London.
uk.news.yahoo.com/.../
I've always said that no one does creative accounting like the westminster government!
Now that fact is becoming more clearer again, this time with the London Olympics.
To sell the Olympics to the public they said it would cost £2.4bln its now at £12bln and could top £24bln!
The UK government have quoted £33bln for HS2. I wonder how much more this controvesial project will eventually cost?
And we trust them to be honest with the GERS report????
Its about time someone was put in prison for London overspend lying!
Now you know where all our money is going too! London.
uk.news.yahoo.com/.../
#
2012-01-26 11:14
I don't suppose the English Daily Mail's latest foray into the independence debate today made it into the so-called Scottish Daily Mail?
It's by columnist Stephen Glover and the not so snappy headline: "If Mr Cameron fails to stand up to the devious, slippery Alex Salmond, the end of the Union will be his wretched legacy" tells you all you need to know.
The full article can be read at www.dailymail.co.uk
It's by columnist Stephen Glover and the not so snappy headline: "If Mr Cameron fails to stand up to the devious, slippery Alex Salmond, the end of the Union will be his wretched legacy" tells you all you need to know.
The full article can be read at www.dailymail.co.uk
#
2012-01-26 11:15
Did anyone else have the same feeling I got over the disgraceful BBC coverage of the events of SNP's presentations yesterday? I had the impression they were deliberately acting like a small child by attempting to ignore the subject. The, "if I can't see you then you can't see me", while placing the hands over their eyes. Do they imagine the biggest event in the United Kingdom since Germany declared war in 1939 will go away if they ignore it? All I can say is, "It's behind you".
#
2012-01-26 12:02
At least they didn't attempt any subliminal imaging.
Jackie Bird in her politically neutral bright red dress sitting in front of the massive union flag dominated graphic on every News bulletin was pure coincidence.
Jackie Bird in her politically neutral bright red dress sitting in front of the massive union flag dominated graphic on every News bulletin was pure coincidence.
#
2012-01-26 12:53
Not to mention the pathetic "... and the headlines in Scotland tonight - Burns Night and Andy Murray." Eh??? I nearly fell off my seat. Luckily the remote control missed the telly and hit the wall.
#
2012-01-26 11:29
albalha
Perhaps we should point out that Fred Goodwin and Nic Griffiths oppose Scottish independence.
Perhaps we should point out that Fred Goodwin and Nic Griffiths oppose Scottish independence.
#
2012-01-26 11:35
Indeed, do you think Labour actually pay people to come up with these points? They must all receive some electronic missive aong the lines of ....."anyone on the media today must make sure they get in todays put down, mention Sheridan and Souter", amateur is being too kind.
#
2012-01-26 11:51
44% for and 45% against and with over 2 years to go until the referendum it's definitely everything to play for.
I watched the Burns Night debate on BBC1 and I could not help laughing at how cool and calm Nicola Sturgeon was when she locked horns with Jim Wallace.
Wallace almost came off his seat several times and appeared so agitated he was like a child in a high chair screaming for his dummy.
The audience hardly responded to Lamont and if she is the face of the no vote then they do have problems.
I watched the Burns Night debate on BBC1 and I could not help laughing at how cool and calm Nicola Sturgeon was when she locked horns with Jim Wallace.
Wallace almost came off his seat several times and appeared so agitated he was like a child in a high chair screaming for his dummy.
The audience hardly responded to Lamont and if she is the face of the no vote then they do have problems.
#
2012-01-26 17:47
Quoting Allan Christie:
I think Wallace had 1 over the 8
44% for and 45% against and with over 2 years to go until the referendum it's definitely everything to play for.
I watched the Burns Night debate on BBC1 and I could not help laughing at how cool and calm Nicola Sturgeon was when she locked horns with Jim Wallace.
Wallace almost came off his seat several times and appeared so agitated he was like a child in a high chair screaming for his dummy.
The audience hardly responded to Lamont and if she is the face of the no vote then they do have problems.
I think Wallace had 1 over the 8
#
2012-01-26 11:52
Last night's debate is supposed to be the first in a series
For BBC standard's I thought it wasnt too bad.
I was wondering if the BBC in Scotland have finally taken on board the idea that they should have balance (time will tell)
The question I invite others to ponder on, is this. Who will be in the next debate?
Will we see the return of Johann Lamont, or will Labour twig that they need someone better (I'm being quite kind). I would say that the next debate will see Labour puting up an MP, possibly Willie Bain. For the Libdems, definately not Jim Wallace, he crashed and burned and will definately be in rehab for the forseable. So from the Libdem/Tory camp perhaps Ruthie Davidson or Danny boy Alexander. For the SNP, Nicola did a very good job as ever, so she may be given another outing to torture the unionists or rest her up and give Alex Neil a crack. For the fourth member of the'panel' Lesley Riddoch does get my vote, she was good, so she may come back for a return bout, or perhaps the BBC will keep in the same idea and have someone like Ian McWhirter in.
As for Glenn Campbell, jury is out, sometimes he was ok, sometimes he slipped up
For BBC standard's I thought it wasnt too bad.
I was wondering if the BBC in Scotland have finally taken on board the idea that they should have balance (time will tell)
The question I invite others to ponder on, is this. Who will be in the next debate?
Will we see the return of Johann Lamont, or will Labour twig that they need someone better (I'm being quite kind). I would say that the next debate will see Labour puting up an MP, possibly Willie Bain. For the Libdems, definately not Jim Wallace, he crashed and burned and will definately be in rehab for the forseable. So from the Libdem/Tory camp perhaps Ruthie Davidson or Danny boy Alexander. For the SNP, Nicola did a very good job as ever, so she may be given another outing to torture the unionists or rest her up and give Alex Neil a crack. For the fourth member of the'panel' Lesley Riddoch does get my vote, she was good, so she may come back for a return bout, or perhaps the BBC will keep in the same idea and have someone like Ian McWhirter in.
As for Glenn Campbell, jury is out, sometimes he was ok, sometimes he slipped up
#
2012-01-26 12:00
Quoting Old Smokey:
Oh, please let it be little Danny doing his impression of a rabbit in the headlights.
So from the Libdem/Tory camp perhaps Ruthie Davidson or Danny boy Alexander.
Oh, please let it be little Danny doing his impression of a rabbit in the headlights.
#
2012-01-26 13:00
Maybe Labour will give Stairheid Battler Johnann's twin, Stairheid Battler Margaret Curran, an outing - wouldn't like to be up a close with those two, I tell you.
Lesley Riddoch was a star, I'd agree on Ian McWhirter as her second. Nicola has put in some sterling performances but it would be good to give her a break and show off another good debater - Alex Neil or maybe Mike Russell.
I thought Glenn did well last night, I'm begining to wonder if he's seeing sense. He's a good Islay boy really, maybe we'll have to have a word next time he's at his Mum's.
Lesley Riddoch was a star, I'd agree on Ian McWhirter as her second. Nicola has put in some sterling performances but it would be good to give her a break and show off another good debater - Alex Neil or maybe Mike Russell.
I thought Glenn did well last night, I'm begining to wonder if he's seeing sense. He's a good Islay boy really, maybe we'll have to have a word next time he's at his Mum's.
#
2012-01-26 11:54
Was the Lord in some extremis last night sitting in between two elegant and articulate women judging by his moist, bizarre and ataxic antics? He kept glancing, rather desperately I thought, at his unionist ally, Lam o'Banter, who appeared consistently unable to link her two marbles in a straight line.
Never mind chaps, once we have the dependency 'Leader' and team in place to herald the union dividend - as requested by the perceptive Ms Riddoch when she alerted the Labour leader in Scotland to the years of preparation Scottish unionism must already have had to get their act together ........ ?
It really was appalling that Ms Riddoch had to point out the role and necessity of packaging and presenting political policy that is so abysmally lacking in unionist policy and debate on Independence - or Devo Max.
I want to whisper this - G Campbell wasn't as bad as usual last night - shhhhh...
Can't wait to see the next unionist twosome descending from their tumbrel for a debate - surely it can only get better?
Never mind chaps, once we have the dependency 'Leader' and team in place to herald the union dividend - as requested by the perceptive Ms Riddoch when she alerted the Labour leader in Scotland to the years of preparation Scottish unionism must already have had to get their act together ........ ?
It really was appalling that Ms Riddoch had to point out the role and necessity of packaging and presenting political policy that is so abysmally lacking in unionist policy and debate on Independence - or Devo Max.
I want to whisper this - G Campbell wasn't as bad as usual last night - shhhhh...
Can't wait to see the next unionist twosome descending from their tumbrel for a debate - surely it can only get better?
#
2012-01-26 11:56
I've just finished watching last night's debate - I recorded it. I actually thought Glenn Campbell did a pretty good job. The other maybe encouraging aspect for the upcoming campaign is that they didn't have a 3 unionist/1 nationalist panel, but instead included Lesley Riddoch, who competed well with GC in chairing the thing and asking some killer questions.
Wallace in particular was laughably hopeless, and the more we can have him on our screens the more confident we can be.
Wallace in particular was laughably hopeless, and the more we can have him on our screens the more confident we can be.
#
2012-01-26 11:58
O/T, but have people seen this news of an event in Glasgow today (live on-line from 1-3 pm, it seems)
guardian.co.uk/.../...
Live Q&A: Scottish social enterprise - Thursday 26 Jan, 1.00-3.00pm
Join us to find out what lessons the rest of the UK – and the world - can learn from social enterprise in Scotland.
This year, Social Enterprise UK and Social Enterprise Scotland are joining forces to host the world's biggest social enterprise event at the Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre in Glasgow. Voice and S2S are combining to provide what the organisers hope will be a "better-than-ever event for everyone in the growing social enterprise sphere" with over 1000 delegates and 150 business exhibitors.
Also, social enterprise leaders look enviously at the support which the Scottish government is providing to its social enterprises.
guardian.co.uk/.../...
Live Q&A: Scottish social enterprise - Thursday 26 Jan, 1.00-3.00pm
Join us to find out what lessons the rest of the UK – and the world - can learn from social enterprise in Scotland.
This year, Social Enterprise UK and Social Enterprise Scotland are joining forces to host the world's biggest social enterprise event at the Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre in Glasgow. Voice and S2S are combining to provide what the organisers hope will be a "better-than-ever event for everyone in the growing social enterprise sphere" with over 1000 delegates and 150 business exhibitors.
Also, social enterprise leaders look enviously at the support which the Scottish government is providing to its social enterprises.
#
2012-01-26 12:05
Has there been any polls done on the satisfaction of the scottish leaders? Interesting to gauge the performance of Ms Lamont and Mr Rennie.
#
2012-01-26 12:21
Heard the same old arguements about the unknowns about Scottish Independence from the unionists this morning on the radio. Cant the SNP and others bat this back with the fact that we can neither predict what is ahead of us in terms of saying with the union, Welfare cuts illegal wars who predicted this would happe?. Once this weak strain of the unionist arguement is blown out of the water the poll ratings will rise.
#
2012-01-26 14:46
Quoting dogbite:
Yep! Been saying that for ages, especially the EU and euro. The future position for same is no clearer for the rUK than it is for an independent Scotland. If they ridiculously demand that Scotland's future position must be stated now, in black and white, then Wastemonster must do the same for the rUK.
The London centric politicos are so baby-like in outlook, they are like diodes, incapable of seeing things other than from their own POV, which is of course, the centre of the Universe.
If they were not all sufferers of Burns Blindness the lines "Wad some power the Giftie gie us, Tae see oorsels as ithers see us." might teach them something which could contribute to some personal growth at least.
Heard the same old arguements about the unknowns about Scottish Independence from the unionists this morning on the radio. Cant the SNP and others bat this back with the fact that we can neither predict what is ahead of us in terms of saying with the union, Welfare cuts illegal wars who predicted this would happe?. Once this weak strain of the unionist arguement is blown out of the water the poll ratings will rise.
Yep! Been saying that for ages, especially the EU and euro. The future position for same is no clearer for the rUK than it is for an independent Scotland. If they ridiculously demand that Scotland's future position must be stated now, in black and white, then Wastemonster must do the same for the rUK.
The London centric politicos are so baby-like in outlook, they are like diodes, incapable of seeing things other than from their own POV, which is of course, the centre of the Universe.
If they were not all sufferers of Burns Blindness the lines "Wad some power the Giftie gie us, Tae see oorsels as ithers see us." might teach them something which could contribute to some personal growth at least.
#
2012-01-26 17:10
Couldn't agree more chicmac.
Every time the unionists demand to see what an independent Scottish government's position regarding economics will be in a few years time,we should ask them what their position will be then.
The way things are going we can probably predict safely that the UK finances will be in desperate straits with the attendant cuts in public services.
Every time the unionists demand to see what an independent Scottish government's position regarding economics will be in a few years time,we should ask them what their position will be then.
The way things are going we can probably predict safely that the UK finances will be in desperate straits with the attendant cuts in public services.
#
2012-01-26 12:28
I'd suspect that some time through the debate the question will arise about 59 Scottish MP's each costing well over 150,000 per ann running costs and only dealing with a hand full of reserved issues to be brought up and questioned.
#
2012-01-26 12:31
O/T - seriously worried about missing the BBC debates from abroad.
Can experts out there tell me if using a foreign IP address interferes with your normal IP connection - I'd go for it but am no techie and can't risk messing up my computer.
Any advice welcome.
Can experts out there tell me if using a foreign IP address interferes with your normal IP connection - I'd go for it but am no techie and can't risk messing up my computer.
Any advice welcome.
#
2012-01-26 12:46
Just a thought
The BBC are capable of adjusting the settings for viewing certain live streams
example being the Hogmany Live programme, which is apparently free to view outside the UK
I was wondering if they had done that with the live stream last night, just a thought. I cant check that as Im not abroad
The BBC are capable of adjusting the settings for viewing certain live streams
example being the Hogmany Live programme, which is apparently free to view outside the UK
I was wondering if they had done that with the live stream last night, just a thought. I cant check that as Im not abroad
#
2012-01-26 12:57
Hi, Old Smokey, yes, yesterday I was able to watch the FM's speech on stream from parliament, but it then cut out during Swinney's speech. I'll keep looking.
Or there's always the possibility of asking someone to make these debates available on Youtube. It could be seen as a service to mankind to make these debates freely available! Especially in view of the spectacular results of the first one!
Or there's always the possibility of asking someone to make these debates available on Youtube. It could be seen as a service to mankind to make these debates freely available! Especially in view of the spectacular results of the first one!
#
2012-01-26 14:41
Marga:
There's a couple of options as I understand it.
Create a new account on your computer and use that to log the proxy IP.
If you can simply dedicate a seperate old system to it that should work as well.
There's a couple of options as I understand it.
Create a new account on your computer and use that to log the proxy IP.
If you can simply dedicate a seperate old system to it that should work as well.
#
2012-01-26 14:42
Marga, it's not that you will be using a foreign IP as such. You cannot change your actual internet connection's IP.
You can however, send your requests through a third party (a proxy). The website you are visiting then thinks that the IP connecting is the proxy. The proxy forwards the data back to you.
The idea is to use a proxy in the UK. You can google to find these. You can even pay money for commercial access to a proxy, I believe.
This is the scenario. A is the BBC website, e.g. iPlayer. B is you (outside the UK) and C is the proxy (in the UK).
If B tries to connect to A directly, then it is blocked as your IP is in a range that is not allocated to the UK. If you connect to A via C then A doesn't know about B and allows the connection. C is forwarding the data to B though without A knowing.
You configure a proxy in your web browser, so that all requests are sent via the proxy. If you use something like Firefox you can get plugins to make this easier to switch on or off.
You are likely breaking the terms of use of the iPlayer in doing this, however. Plus, free proxies tend to just be misconfigured machines on the internet and could even be deliberately set up to capture data from unsuspecting people.
It's not really a good idea to use a proxy all the time unless you trust it (e.g. you are buying the service).
Proxies are the same way that dissidents in China, for example, access websites that are blocked, but they would probably use a VPN or something, but that's getting more technical.
Using a proxy won't do anything bad to your computer and is reversible. It is a configuration for your browser. It's not a good idea to leave it on all the time though for the reasons above.
You can however, send your requests through a third party (a proxy). The website you are visiting then thinks that the IP connecting is the proxy. The proxy forwards the data back to you.
The idea is to use a proxy in the UK. You can google to find these. You can even pay money for commercial access to a proxy, I believe.
This is the scenario. A is the BBC website, e.g. iPlayer. B is you (outside the UK) and C is the proxy (in the UK).
If B tries to connect to A directly, then it is blocked as your IP is in a range that is not allocated to the UK. If you connect to A via C then A doesn't know about B and allows the connection. C is forwarding the data to B though without A knowing.
You configure a proxy in your web browser, so that all requests are sent via the proxy. If you use something like Firefox you can get plugins to make this easier to switch on or off.
You are likely breaking the terms of use of the iPlayer in doing this, however. Plus, free proxies tend to just be misconfigured machines on the internet and could even be deliberately set up to capture data from unsuspecting people.
It's not really a good idea to use a proxy all the time unless you trust it (e.g. you are buying the service).
Proxies are the same way that dissidents in China, for example, access websites that are blocked, but they would probably use a VPN or something, but that's getting more technical.
Using a proxy won't do anything bad to your computer and is reversible. It is a configuration for your browser. It's not a good idea to leave it on all the time though for the reasons above.
#
2012-01-26 21:07
Hi Marga, I'm in Greece and use Tunnelbear which is a VPN (Virtual Private Network) that allows you to choose between UK and US IPs. There are 2 switches: on/off and UK/US. It really is that simple. It takes 2 seconds to install, and it auto configures in seconds.
There is a free version and a pay version. I have the pay version which gives me unlimited bandwidth for 5 euros a month.
However....to my astonishment today, I found that when playing iPlayer with Tunnelbear, if I switch off tunnelbear, I can still watch and even download.....at the same bandwidth as my DSL which is 24Mb. iPlayer only checks once to see what your IP address is. Tunnelbear can sometime be glitchy for me, but the missus has no problems with her Macbook, so it's probably my computer.
There is a free version and a pay version. I have the pay version which gives me unlimited bandwidth for 5 euros a month.
However....to my astonishment today, I found that when playing iPlayer with Tunnelbear, if I switch off tunnelbear, I can still watch and even download.....at the same bandwidth as my DSL which is 24Mb. iPlayer only checks once to see what your IP address is. Tunnelbear can sometime be glitchy for me, but the missus has no problems with her Macbook, so it's probably my computer.
#
2012-01-26 12:34
My dream would be to have Lord Jim and wullierennie on the same panel then avowed unionist Michelle Mone could offer some of her famed product to support a pair of tits
#
2012-01-26 12:37
Would that be the same Michelle Mone who was leaving Scotland for good if the country got a Parliament?
#
2012-01-26 12:57
Unfortunately she didn't and the media aquiesence to her endless quest for free self-publicity continues to pollute the MSM.
#
2012-01-26 12:52
Lamont on GMS,
"I have a positive vision for Scotland. I do recognise that the world has changed over time and the interesting thing about the SNP is their position is not a rational position in relation to the circumstances they face, it's a matter of faith to them. That's their position, I disagree with that."
WHAT IS THE POSITIVE VISION????? Good lord above we keep hearing about positive arguments and positive visions for scotland within the UK but what are they?? Please just one of you unionst at least attempt to shake my belief that scotland would be better served in the union. Please just one of you give me something to mull over and make me really think about it.
Eventually you are gonna have to tell us what they are cause at the moment you are winning no-one to your side.
"I have a positive vision for Scotland. I do recognise that the world has changed over time and the interesting thing about the SNP is their position is not a rational position in relation to the circumstances they face, it's a matter of faith to them. That's their position, I disagree with that."
WHAT IS THE POSITIVE VISION????? Good lord above we keep hearing about positive arguments and positive visions for scotland within the UK but what are they?? Please just one of you unionst at least attempt to shake my belief that scotland would be better served in the union. Please just one of you give me something to mull over and make me really think about it.
Eventually you are gonna have to tell us what they are cause at the moment you are winning no-one to your side.
#
2012-01-26 15:18
The day that one of them do make an attempt at that conundrum without using the 'stronger together than apart claptrap' I will fall off my chair in astonishment!
It will truly be a eureka moment.
As Riddoch implied in the debate last night the unionists have had 40 years since they last duped the Scottish people to think about it!
I wont hold my breath. .
It will truly be a eureka moment.
As Riddoch implied in the debate last night the unionists have had 40 years since they last duped the Scottish people to think about it!
I wont hold my breath. .
#
2012-01-26 12:57
Call Kaye, MUST LISTEN, scroll the programme forward to 51:50 and listen to Ian from Edinburgh.
www.bbc.co.uk/.../b019p76n
"Alex Salmond a dictator, evil, dictator, nasty bit of work"
Another secret recruiter for the SNP?; though he seemed on good terms with Ms Goldie.
www.bbc.co.uk/.../b019p76n
"Alex Salmond a dictator, evil, dictator, nasty bit of work"
Another secret recruiter for the SNP?; though he seemed on good terms with Ms Goldie.
#
2012-01-26 13:05
Although it was the usual 3:1 party format for a 1:1 YES:NO issue, Kaye did at last put to Anas Sarwar: "what will you do if we get independence" and got a reasonable answer.
We really need to get the party positions out of the way and get the civil society positions moving.
We really need to get the party positions out of the way and get the civil society positions moving.
#
2012-01-26 13:15
many people in the forums I visit believe that alex salmond is a crazed megalomaniac that wants to become some sort of dictator ,and that the snp are guilty of nazi like social engineering, e.g. minimum pricing, new anti-sectarian laws. But thanfully cameron is here to save the day and stop the evil snp from implementing their dreaded commie laws.
#
2012-01-26 13:27
This dictator thing seems to be a thread pervading a few forums and tv debates (ersatz Paxo interview). The unionists are focusing completly on Alex Salmond and have him targetted at all levels. Ignoring all other SNP politicians
#
2012-01-26 14:03
Quoting Old Smokey:
Yep, I've seen letters in some newspapers and on other forums referring to him as 'Dear Leader' like Kim Jong Il.
This dictator thing seems to be a thread pervading a few forums and tv debates (ersatz Paxo interview). The unionists are focusing completly on Alex Salmond and have him targetted at all levels. Ignoring all other SNP politicians
Yep, I've seen letters in some newspapers and on other forums referring to him as 'Dear Leader' like Kim Jong Il.
#
2012-01-26 13:50
Not one of the other panelists challenged Ian from Edinburgh. So presumably Analbelle Goldie, Anas Sarwar, Willie Rennie and Kay(e) agree with that description of the elected First Minister of Scotland.
#
2012-01-26 17:36
Quoting farrochie:
Sorry, tried to listen but just had no stomach for it. I do feel sad for some of the callers it seems the fear tactic is already at work as in "I don't want to live in a bankrupt Scotland" Jesus wept.
Call Kaye, MUST LISTEN, scroll the programme forward to 51:50 and listen to Ian from Edinburgh.
www.bbc.co.uk/.../b019p76n
"Alex Salmond a dictator, evil, dictator, nasty bit of work"
Another secret recruiter for the SNP?; though he seemed on good terms with Ms Goldie.
Sorry, tried to listen but just had no stomach for it. I do feel sad for some of the callers it seems the fear tactic is already at work as in "I don't want to live in a bankrupt Scotland" Jesus wept.
#
2012-01-26 18:26
You do need a strong stomach to listen sometimes. I've heard people get cut off for saying less than Ian from Edinburgh.
#
2012-01-26 13:10
Just listening to rantin', rovin, Rosa - reminded me that I'd heard better oratory skills at the primary 3 Burns presentation. Even Rennie might sound good later, perhaps not.
Leadership, gravitas - Labour left it all behind with Elmer.....
Leadership, gravitas - Labour left it all behind with Elmer.....
#
2012-01-26 13:25
The problem with Rosa, I noticed is she does not have an original thought. She just reads verbatum what is placed in front of her. Even keeps on track with no deviation. I wonder if she actually understands whats she is reading.
What would be a laugh if someone somehow managed to substitute her notes prior to her standing up, she would still read them
What would be a laugh if someone somehow managed to substitute her notes prior to her standing up, she would still read them
#
2012-01-26 14:00
Lamont is like a "Speak-Your-Weight-Machine" but with no teeth. It sounds like she is sporting her man's wallies.
#
2012-01-26 13:22
She is just dreadful. Embarrasment to Scotland. Too Wee and Too Stupid : A parody of the nationalist main argument to Scotland becoming independent.
#
2012-01-26 13:34
Just watched FMQ's. Not too sure I like the sound of retaining the Bank of England as our central bank. Why can't we have our own state owned bank?
The anti independence crowd will make hay with this.
The anti independence crowd will make hay with this.
#
2012-01-26 13:54
I think it will be a temporary arrangement and after a few years there will be a Scottish central bank and we'll have our own currency.
This actually concerns me less than the idea of walking into the EU without a vote.
This actually concerns me less than the idea of walking into the EU without a vote.
#
2012-01-26 13:59
Hope you're right Wee-Scamp. I share your concerns about the EU, I'd be happy enough with EFTA and nothing more.
#
2012-01-26 14:13
Ah! Wee Scamp,
Why would we need a different currency?
The pound is a international trading currency, The Bank of England is not English since 1946 and the Westminster does not set interest rates since Gordon Brown made the Bank of England independent in 1998.
Why would we need a different currency?
The pound is a international trading currency, The Bank of England is not English since 1946 and the Westminster does not set interest rates since Gordon Brown made the Bank of England independent in 1998.
#
2012-01-26 15:59
Part of a post that was placed some time ago - good research. Not my work
1946 brought the "nationalisation " of the Bank. At the end of WWII, Britain was more or less bankrupt, so it was agreed that instead of paying cash for the shares of the Bank, shareholders would receive 3% Treasury stock instead. With the 1946 Bank of England Act, all the Bank shares were transferred into the possession of the Treasury solicitor, and there they are to this day. It remains a corporation, not a government department.
In 1977, the Bank set up a wholly owned subsidiary called BANK OF ENGLAND NOMINEES LIMITED, (BOEN), a private limited company, no. 1307478, with 2 of its 100 £1 shares issued. According to its Memorandum & Articles of Association, its objectives are;-
"To act as Nominee or agent or attorney either solely or jointly with others, for any person or persons, partnership, company, corporation, government, state, organisation, sovereign, province, authority, or public body, or any group or association of them...."
Bank of England Nominees Limited was granted an exemption by Edmund Dell, Secretary of State for Trade, from the disclosure requirements under Section 27(9) of the Companies Act 1976 , because, "it was considered undesirable that the disclosure requirements should apply to certain categories of shareholders."
Add that to the fact that the Bank of England is protected from prying eyes by its "Royal Charter" status and the Official Secrets Act. What have we got here?
In 1998, the final piece of the puzzle fell into place. In return for fixing the 1997 elections and getting New Labour into power, the Government enacted the 1998 Bank of England Act, which gave the Bank's Court of Directors complete independence with regard to monetary policy.
1946 brought the "nationalisation " of the Bank. At the end of WWII, Britain was more or less bankrupt, so it was agreed that instead of paying cash for the shares of the Bank, shareholders would receive 3% Treasury stock instead. With the 1946 Bank of England Act, all the Bank shares were transferred into the possession of the Treasury solicitor, and there they are to this day. It remains a corporation, not a government department.
In 1977, the Bank set up a wholly owned subsidiary called BANK OF ENGLAND NOMINEES LIMITED, (BOEN), a private limited company, no. 1307478, with 2 of its 100 £1 shares issued. According to its Memorandum & Articles of Association, its objectives are;-
"To act as Nominee or agent or attorney either solely or jointly with others, for any person or persons, partnership, company, corporation, government, state, organisation, sovereign, province, authority, or public body, or any group or association of them...."
Bank of England Nominees Limited was granted an exemption by Edmund Dell, Secretary of State for Trade, from the disclosure requirements under Section 27(9) of the Companies Act 1976 , because, "it was considered undesirable that the disclosure requirements should apply to certain categories of shareholders."
Add that to the fact that the Bank of England is protected from prying eyes by its "Royal Charter" status and the Official Secrets Act. What have we got here?
In 1998, the final piece of the puzzle fell into place. In return for fixing the 1997 elections and getting New Labour into power, the Government enacted the 1998 Bank of England Act, which gave the Bank's Court of Directors complete independence with regard to monetary policy.
#
2012-01-26 14:04
That's a good question dillond. There may very well be several answers to it though. Just to kick one up the field - We are going to be an emergent nation and an unknown for trading. We've got bags of resources and a government willing to deal and invest in infrastructure, but still only an emergent nation. We'll need time to realise those resources and as postulated in McCrone's report over time our currency will harden to the point where we could cut loose and push out on our own, but we need the bank balance first.
Equally in the short term there is an advantage to be had from keeping the pound sterling as a way of easing transition to independence for the timid businessman or nervous voter in the street. Also as a way of ensuring less resistance from those businesses south of the border. If we're initially pegged to the pound they'll feel less threatened themselves. But over time we should be able to eventually float our own currency with no dramas.
Equally in the short term there is an advantage to be had from keeping the pound sterling as a way of easing transition to independence for the timid businessman or nervous voter in the street. Also as a way of ensuring less resistance from those businesses south of the border. If we're initially pegged to the pound they'll feel less threatened themselves. But over time we should be able to eventually float our own currency with no dramas.
#
2012-01-26 14:47
Whoa! There Macart, Where do you get this, "Emergent Nation". Scotland was a nation since long before the Romans built the Antonine wall to keep us out of the Roman Empire. Did you know that the Gask Road part of the Antonine Wall was the first Roman defensive line in the Roman Empire?
Scotland is neither emerging nor becoming independent for the first time. We, in Scotland, led Europe into the European Enlightenment. As for independence, I do not like the term, just who has been dependent upon whom, for what, since 1707? Why the hell do you think they are so set upon hanging on to Scotland? It certainly is NOT because WE depend upon THEM. We are not the ones going to lose all that oil, gas and other revenues. We are not the ones that will miss subsidy.
Scotland is neither emerging nor becoming independent for the first time. We, in Scotland, led Europe into the European Enlightenment. As for independence, I do not like the term, just who has been dependent upon whom, for what, since 1707? Why the hell do you think they are so set upon hanging on to Scotland? It certainly is NOT because WE depend upon THEM. We are not the ones going to lose all that oil, gas and other revenues. We are not the ones that will miss subsidy.
#
2012-01-26 15:08
Auld Bob you are absolutely correct in everything you have just said about our history. We are an ancient nation in every other respect and by any standard. But look at it from the traders perspective in the modern market place. As far as they are concerned new is exactly what we are. We're an unknown and emergent economy (which is probably the better term to have used in my previous post). We'll be the new kid on the playground.
As for the Antonine wall, I know it well. I was brought up in its shadow and worked on the dig near Croy on the old fort. Good times!
As for the Antonine wall, I know it well. I was brought up in its shadow and worked on the dig near Croy on the old fort. Good times!
#
2012-01-26 15:17
Auld Bob,
As Voltaire once said:
"We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation".
As Voltaire once said:
"We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation".
#
2012-01-26 14:08
Quoting dillond666:
I have heard it mentioned that this would possibly be a transitional postion. Most folk seem to take from that that it would be until we join the Euro, but perhaps we will follow the example of the Czechs and Slovaks whose currencies (the Koruna) were the same immediately after 1993 when they became separate states. Once the economies started to work independently the currencies were allowed to float separately as the Czech and Slovak Koruna.
If we follow this template then after a short while the world economists would recognise the strength of the Scottish pound and when they decouple would look favourably upon it in international markets. A very worrying possibility for the unionists that the Scottish pound would be a safer bet than the English pound due to our natural resources having a huge positive effect on our economy and therefore our currency.
I wouldn't write off the possibility of us having our own currency- after all if the Euro does disintegrate we will just be one of many countries with a new currency.
Just watched FMQ's. Not too sure I like the sound of retaining the Bank of England as our central bank. Why can't we have our own state owned bank?
The anti independence crowd will make hay with this.
I have heard it mentioned that this would possibly be a transitional postion. Most folk seem to take from that that it would be until we join the Euro, but perhaps we will follow the example of the Czechs and Slovaks whose currencies (the Koruna) were the same immediately after 1993 when they became separate states. Once the economies started to work independently the currencies were allowed to float separately as the Czech and Slovak Koruna.
If we follow this template then after a short while the world economists would recognise the strength of the Scottish pound and when they decouple would look favourably upon it in international markets. A very worrying possibility for the unionists that the Scottish pound would be a safer bet than the English pound due to our natural resources having a huge positive effect on our economy and therefore our currency.
I wouldn't write off the possibility of us having our own currency- after all if the Euro does disintegrate we will just be one of many countries with a new currency.
#
2012-01-26 14:10
Ah! dillon666,
You have been listening to too much Rainbow tory alliance of the Red, Yellow and Blue tories. Amply aided by the Mainstream Scottish Media.
Here are a few facts for you TRUE ONES.
The Bank of England IS NOT English.
It was nationalised as the UNITED KINGDOM's state bank in 1946.
It was made an independent company by the Gordon Brown in 1998.
Ergo, it is not English and Scotland owns part of it.
The Pound sterling is not English either but belongs to the United Kingdom and Scotland thus owns part of it. Furthermore the pound is an international trading currency.
Additionaly, the UK Parliament does not set the interest rates.
There - does that help?
You have been listening to too much Rainbow tory alliance of the Red, Yellow and Blue tories. Amply aided by the Mainstream Scottish Media.
Here are a few facts for you TRUE ONES.
The Bank of England IS NOT English.
It was nationalised as the UNITED KINGDOM's state bank in 1946.
It was made an independent company by the Gordon Brown in 1998.
Ergo, it is not English and Scotland owns part of it.
The Pound sterling is not English either but belongs to the United Kingdom and Scotland thus owns part of it. Furthermore the pound is an international trading currency.
Additionaly, the UK Parliament does not set the interest rates.
There - does that help?
#
2012-01-26 14:20
"You have been listening to too much Rainbow tory alliance of the Red, Yellow and Blue tories. Amply aided by the Mainstream Scottish Media."
Listening yes, believing certainly not. I am not a fool.
I had a quick look at the Wikipedia page for the Bank of England and it seems their mission is very much to look after the UK interest. My concern is that post independence the establishment lords and sirs at the top of B of E may not act in the Scottish interest.
Listening yes, believing certainly not. I am not a fool.
I had a quick look at the Wikipedia page for the Bank of England and it seems their mission is very much to look after the UK interest. My concern is that post independence the establishment lords and sirs at the top of B of E may not act in the Scottish interest.
#
2012-01-26 14:54
I kinda wonder if they act in Scottish interest at the moment dillond. We don't have much representation on it, I think one member out of this lot
bankofengland.co.uk/.../...
bankofengland.co.uk/.../...
#
2012-01-26 14:58
Dillon666, I've been saying this for around 60 years. When the Union Ends, Wastemonster dies with it. The members of the HOC are elected members of the Union Parliament and there is no English Parliament It cannot legally function as an English Parliament without an English election. The Bank of England was not English after 1946 when the UNION nationalised it. Gordon Brown cut it loose as an independent Company but Scorland and England are equal sovereign partners in the Treaty of Union.
#
2012-01-26 14:59
I think we part own the Bank of England as its post 1707 and was part of the treaty agreement. So if we cant use the Bank of England we will take our 8% chunk!
#
2012-01-26 15:30
There has to be a transition stage when some things will be the same till decisions are made on the direction to take. We can shred our £20 notes the day after indpendence is announced as no new currency has yet been agreed, nor can it be agreed until after the election of our first parliament.
Ireland remained with the Pound till it had its own structures in place and changed to the Irish Punt. I assume we will change once a new currency is agreed.
Ireland remained with the Pound till it had its own structures in place and changed to the Irish Punt. I assume we will change once a new currency is agreed.
#
2012-01-26 13:34
Well theres a shocker, Alex Salmond has just revealed that The UK Foreign and Commonwealth office charge SDI £ 3000 each time the SDI hold a function in an embassy overseas to promote Whisky (and posssibly other Scottish Industries) BUT do not charge the English UK Development Intl
#
2012-01-26 13:50
O/T
I don't know if you have read this.
Forth Ports a Scottish company have taken over Tilbury Contanier Service dear oh dear is Scotland starting to take over England.
I also see that Tory MP Nicholas Soames has warned the UK Government Tax raid on North Sea oil and gas has had a chilling effect on industry investment.
I don't know if you have read this.
Forth Ports a Scottish company have taken over Tilbury Contanier Service dear oh dear is Scotland starting to take over England.
I also see that Tory MP Nicholas Soames has warned the UK Government Tax raid on North Sea oil and gas has had a chilling effect on industry investment.
#
2012-01-26 14:16
Err! No! They have just taken a bigger share holding in that company and now have full control. They had a large holding in it for some time.
#
2012-01-26 13:50
Just listening to L Davidson and S Cosgrove on the radio; she is no longer introduced as a former Labour bod yet E Crawford continues to be introduced as ex SNP, most recently yesterday. Does anyone, off the top of their head, have the respective dates of their tenure in the parties?
#
2012-01-26 14:04
Anyone on Twitter? This guy is looking for an answer. I've tried.
"@craiglparker
I'm not being funny here but I genuinely can't see an economic/political reason for Scotland to split from UK, can anyone help me out?"
"@craiglparker
I'm not being funny here but I genuinely can't see an economic/political reason for Scotland to split from UK, can anyone help me out?"
#
2012-01-26 14:05
Is L.Davidson now a BBC employee - same question re Curtice?
They seem to spend most of their time at Pathetic Quay.
They seem to spend most of their time at Pathetic Quay.
#
2012-01-26 14:09
Angus Roberstson said:"Results like this show that independence for Scotland is achievable and with more and more people supporting the principle that decisions about what happens in Scotland should be made by the people of Scotland it is a very welcome result."
Of course he would say that, but what was the question asked?
“An exclusive New Statesman/ICD poll has some encouraging news for the SNP leader. Asked if Scotland should become an independent country, 45 per cent of Scottish voters say no and 44 per cent say yes, a higher level of support for independence than previously indicated by polls.”
Poll taken: 21st-22nd January? No data published.
Of course he would say that, but what was the question asked?
“An exclusive New Statesman/ICD poll has some encouraging news for the SNP leader. Asked if Scotland should become an independent country, 45 per cent of Scottish voters say no and 44 per cent say yes, a higher level of support for independence than previously indicated by polls.”
Poll taken: 21st-22nd January? No data published.
#
2012-01-26 14:53
And?
The only poll that matters is the referendum, though good polls or poll trends are good news for parties.
There are two years of debate ahead, which is plenty of time to dispel the rubbish emanating from the Unionists. Once people are made aware of how normal self-determination is, we'll be on our way.
The SNP has only just started to debate!
The only poll that matters is the referendum, though good polls or poll trends are good news for parties.
There are two years of debate ahead, which is plenty of time to dispel the rubbish emanating from the Unionists. Once people are made aware of how normal self-determination is, we'll be on our way.
The SNP has only just started to debate!
#
2012-01-26 17:34
BeltaneFire 2012-01-26 13:53
“The only poll that matters is the referendum, though good polls or poll trends are good news for parties.”
Exactly BF, good news for the parties, but what does it add to the debate?
Obfuscation is the opposite of clarity.
Take for example the SNParty consultation document.
From Mr Salmonds foreword:
"This consultation paper seeks views on what the ballot paper should say, what spending
limits should be set on campaign groups and how the referendum should be managed and regulated. it sets out the timetable FOR PARLIAMENTARY AND PUBLIC DEBATE which will ensure that the scottish people are able to take an informed decision about their future." My capitals!
5 How to Comment
• This consultation is your opportunity to shape the referendum on Scotland’s
constitutional future. Responses should be made by Friday 11 May 2012.
• It would be helpful to have your response by email or using the electronic response
form. The electronic response form can be accessed at the following website
address: consult.scotland.gov.uk. You can also email your response to the
mailbox below.
• We are, of course, happy to receive written submissions too.
Handling your response
We need to know how you wish your response to be handled and, in particular, whether
you are happy for your response to be made public. Please complete and return the
Respondent Information Form which forms part of the separate consultation questionnaire
as this will ensure that we treat your response appropriately. IF YOU ASK FOR YOUR RESPONSE NOT TO BE PUBLISHED WE WILL REGARD IT AS CONFIDENTIAL AND TREAT IT ACCORDINGLY. All respondents
should be aware that the Scottish Government is subject to the provisions of the Freedom
of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 and would therefore have to consider any request made to it under the Act for information relating to responses made to this consultation exercise.
Why should anyone wish their response to be regarded as CONFIDENTIAL? It is supposed to be a public consultation. I suspect this is to cover members of political parties who have no right to a vote on this matter.
“The only poll that matters is the referendum, though good polls or poll trends are good news for parties.”
Exactly BF, good news for the parties, but what does it add to the debate?
Obfuscation is the opposite of clarity.
Take for example the SNParty consultation document.
From Mr Salmonds foreword:
"This consultation paper seeks views on what the ballot paper should say, what spending
limits should be set on campaign groups and how the referendum should be managed and regulated. it sets out the timetable FOR PARLIAMENTARY AND PUBLIC DEBATE which will ensure that the scottish people are able to take an informed decision about their future." My capitals!
5 How to Comment
• This consultation is your opportunity to shape the referendum on Scotland’s
constitutional future. Responses should be made by Friday 11 May 2012.
• It would be helpful to have your response by email or using the electronic response
form. The electronic response form can be accessed at the following website
address: consult.scotland.gov.uk. You can also email your response to the
mailbox below.
• We are, of course, happy to receive written submissions too.
Handling your response
We need to know how you wish your response to be handled and, in particular, whether
you are happy for your response to be made public. Please complete and return the
Respondent Information Form which forms part of the separate consultation questionnaire
as this will ensure that we treat your response appropriately. IF YOU ASK FOR YOUR RESPONSE NOT TO BE PUBLISHED WE WILL REGARD IT AS CONFIDENTIAL AND TREAT IT ACCORDINGLY. All respondents
should be aware that the Scottish Government is subject to the provisions of the Freedom
of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 and would therefore have to consider any request made to it under the Act for information relating to responses made to this consultation exercise.
Why should anyone wish their response to be regarded as CONFIDENTIAL? It is supposed to be a public consultation. I suspect this is to cover members of political parties who have no right to a vote on this matter.
#
2012-01-26 18:53
Quoting exel:
Just playing with semantics you are.
The point is that it is a small way for the people who are analysing the responses to see that they come from people and not from bots and spammers and the black ops departments that are presently soiling them selves all over the MSM forums, that is the ones that are open. Not the closed and heavily censored BBC Scotland forums.
I have made this observation many times. There is a massive army of Ukanians out there who stand to loose quite a lot from independence, not least their cushy jobs and pensions. I suggest that much of the anti Scottish racist filth that is generated on the likes of The Daily Heil, The Telegraph and all the other organs of Ukanian oppression, is generated by people in the various departments associated with the Ukanian supervision of Scotland. There are some fifty plus MPs and their staff, about the same number of Lords and their staff, and God knows how many squirrelled away in St Andrews and Dover House who have sod all to do but generate this stuff. If you then imagine all of their families and friends who stand to loose out come independence that number is quite considerable. I refuse to believe that muck comes from your average English reader. I call them the Vichy, the similarities are quite staggering. But there vile behaviour is costing them the Cyber war, the Cybernats of which I am a very proud and active member are beating them hands down.
Old Foulkes is reputed to be one of the most prolific on line rabble rousers. Lets face it he's good for Fek all else.
He is apparently an avid reader of this excellent patriotic News outlet. I just wish he had the spine to log on as himself. Imagine that.
BeltaneFire 2012-01-26 13:53
“The only poll that matters is the referendum, though good polls or poll trends are good news for parties.”
Exactly BF, good news for the parties, but what does it add to the debate?
Obfuscation is the opposite of clarity.
Take for example the SNParty consultation document.
From Mr Salmonds foreword:
"This consultation paper seeks views on what the ballot paper should say, what spending
limits should be set on campaign groups and how the referendum should be managed and regulated. it sets out the timetable FOR PARLIAMENTARY AND PUBLIC DEBATE which will ensure that the scottish people are able to take an informed decision about their future." My capitals!
5 How to Comment
• This consultation is your opportunity to shape the referendum on Scotland’s
constitutional future. Responses should be made by Friday 11 May 2012.
• It would be helpful to have your response by email or using the electronic response
form. The electronic response form can be accessed at the following website
address: consult.scotland.gov.uk. You can also email your response to the
mailbox below.
• We are, of course, happy to receive written submissions too.
Handling your response
We need to know how you wish your response to be handled and, in particular, whether
you are happy for your response to be made public. Please complete and return the
Respondent Information Form which forms part of the separate consultation questionnaire
as this will ensure that we treat your response appropriately. IF YOU ASK FOR YOUR RESPONSE NOT TO BE PUBLISHED WE WILL REGARD IT AS CONFIDENTIAL AND TREAT IT ACCORDINGLY. All respondents
should be aware that the Scottish Government is subject to the provisions of the Freedom
of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 and would therefore have to consider any request made to it under the Act for information relating to responses made to this consultation exercise.
Why should anyone wish their response to be regarded as CONFIDENTIAL? It is supposed to be a public consultation. I suspect this is to cover members of political parties who have no right to a vote on this matter.
Just playing with semantics you are.
The point is that it is a small way for the people who are analysing the responses to see that they come from people and not from bots and spammers and the black ops departments that are presently soiling them selves all over the MSM forums, that is the ones that are open. Not the closed and heavily censored BBC Scotland forums.
I have made this observation many times. There is a massive army of Ukanians out there who stand to loose quite a lot from independence, not least their cushy jobs and pensions. I suggest that much of the anti Scottish racist filth that is generated on the likes of The Daily Heil, The Telegraph and all the other organs of Ukanian oppression, is generated by people in the various departments associated with the Ukanian supervision of Scotland. There are some fifty plus MPs and their staff, about the same number of Lords and their staff, and God knows how many squirrelled away in St Andrews and Dover House who have sod all to do but generate this stuff. If you then imagine all of their families and friends who stand to loose out come independence that number is quite considerable. I refuse to believe that muck comes from your average English reader. I call them the Vichy, the similarities are quite staggering. But there vile behaviour is costing them the Cyber war, the Cybernats of which I am a very proud and active member are beating them hands down.
Old Foulkes is reputed to be one of the most prolific on line rabble rousers. Lets face it he's good for Fek all else.
He is apparently an avid reader of this excellent patriotic News outlet. I just wish he had the spine to log on as himself. Imagine that.
#
2012-01-26 19:19
Quoting exel:
The polls the polls. I remember well the massaging of egos that took place between Brewer and Curtice before the last election, as they bared their gums, at each other, when Brewer said the latest poll showing the SNP break through was "a rogue poll." "Yes I'm sure it must be," grinned the cadaverous Curtice.
The Ukanian baying that took place before the devolution election was of the same nature. The sky would come down and Scotland would be ruined.
Had the anti Independence parties found the moral fibre within them selves to actually conduct them selves in a positive manner and embrace the changing political landscape in Scotland then they may be in a better place than they are. Their craven docile cap doffing mentality to the God Westminster has finished them. Westminster is not fit for purpose, people want to be governed better and Westminster cannot evolve to do it. They are corrupt and Venal. Cromwell was right when he said:
"It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.
In the name of God, go!"
He was a trifle mad but he got that right.
Scotland has no more need of Westminster that medieval anomaly should be burned to the ground. And a new parliament built in Birmingham, that would be easier to get to and not as expensive to run.
The MPs and Lords we send there are a waste of space and money. Scotland deserves better and we will have it.
Angus Roberstson said:"Results like this show that independence for Scotland is achievable and with more and more people supporting the principle that decisions about what happens in Scotland should be made by the people of Scotland it is a very welcome result."
Of course he would say that, but what was the question asked?
“An exclusive New Statesman/ICD poll has some encouraging news for the SNP leader. Asked if Scotland should become an independent country, 45 per cent of Scottish voters say no and 44 per cent say yes, a higher level of support for independence than previously indicated by polls.”
Poll taken: 21st-22nd January? No data published.
The polls the polls. I remember well the massaging of egos that took place between Brewer and Curtice before the last election, as they bared their gums, at each other, when Brewer said the latest poll showing the SNP break through was "a rogue poll." "Yes I'm sure it must be," grinned the cadaverous Curtice.
The Ukanian baying that took place before the devolution election was of the same nature. The sky would come down and Scotland would be ruined.
Had the anti Independence parties found the moral fibre within them selves to actually conduct them selves in a positive manner and embrace the changing political landscape in Scotland then they may be in a better place than they are. Their craven docile cap doffing mentality to the God Westminster has finished them. Westminster is not fit for purpose, people want to be governed better and Westminster cannot evolve to do it. They are corrupt and Venal. Cromwell was right when he said:
"It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.
In the name of God, go!"
He was a trifle mad but he got that right.
Scotland has no more need of Westminster that medieval anomaly should be burned to the ground. And a new parliament built in Birmingham, that would be easier to get to and not as expensive to run.
The MPs and Lords we send there are a waste of space and money. Scotland deserves better and we will have it.
#
2012-01-26 14:34
It has to be said that of all the FM's question times this last was, (perhaps), the most funny to date. I hearly wet yuself laughing. Had to get to the loo in a hurry. All three Rainbow Tory alliance party leaders showed they did not know the subjects they each chose to question. Each one thus made themself look foolish. The FM didn't even need to do anything.
Labour obviously do not know the status of the Bank Of England or that the Wastemonster does not set interests rates. They obviouslt didn't know that Sterling is an intenational trading currency,(but then neither does the Wastemonster Party leaders and deputies).
Rennie also keeps asking the question he thinks has not been answered, when even a primary school child could do the simple sum the FM quoted to prove Rennie's idea of a rise in revenue from Wastemonster calculates out as a cut not a surplus. As for the Blue Tory Leader, her grasp of things seems more distant by the week.
Labour obviously do not know the status of the Bank Of England or that the Wastemonster does not set interests rates. They obviouslt didn't know that Sterling is an intenational trading currency,(but then neither does the Wastemonster Party leaders and deputies).
Rennie also keeps asking the question he thinks has not been answered, when even a primary school child could do the simple sum the FM quoted to prove Rennie's idea of a rise in revenue from Wastemonster calculates out as a cut not a surplus. As for the Blue Tory Leader, her grasp of things seems more distant by the week.
#
2012-01-26 15:30
David Mundell got his comuppance from AS for being ignorant of the figures for the effect of his government's policy on the number of children who will be impoverished by the policy.
Fundamental information. Your lives in their hands - literally.
Cut off at the best bit! Brian Taylor so anxious to get his fizzog on the Daily Politics show that we did not fully hear the answer to the last question to the FM.
Fundamental information. Your lives in their hands - literally.
Cut off at the best bit! Brian Taylor so anxious to get his fizzog on the Daily Politics show that we did not fully hear the answer to the last question to the FM.
#
2012-01-26 14:35
A bit O/T
Can anyone advise how accurate the GERS 2009-2010 information is?
Would I be right in thinking that the GERS is based on Treasury figures and could be a bit 'massaged'
thanks to anyone who can advise
Can anyone advise how accurate the GERS 2009-2010 information is?
Would I be right in thinking that the GERS is based on Treasury figures and could be a bit 'massaged'
thanks to anyone who can advise
#
2012-01-26 15:23
They are, quite obviously open to interpretation, but!
They are open to interpretation because all English funding is actually United Kingdom funding as England has no block grant. That means England's contributions to the UK Treasury are also UK revenues. Like the TV licence money, road tax, VAT paid through London Head Offices. Not to mention that while between 98% and 95% of North Sea revenue comes from Scottish waters we are only credited with 8% of the those revenues. Go figure what 92% of North Sea Revenue is? Then we have the other things we know about like the VAT, and other business taxes that are credited to London Via UK wide business' with registered head offices in London. Furthermore, the things we are still finding out. The Crown Estates rents and royalties, the fines levied by Scottish courts. Then we have all the hidden expendature in London. There is little doubt that the Scottish payment into the Treasury falls way short of what we get back.
They are open to interpretation because all English funding is actually United Kingdom funding as England has no block grant. That means England's contributions to the UK Treasury are also UK revenues. Like the TV licence money, road tax, VAT paid through London Head Offices. Not to mention that while between 98% and 95% of North Sea revenue comes from Scottish waters we are only credited with 8% of the those revenues. Go figure what 92% of North Sea Revenue is? Then we have the other things we know about like the VAT, and other business taxes that are credited to London Via UK wide business' with registered head offices in London. Furthermore, the things we are still finding out. The Crown Estates rents and royalties, the fines levied by Scottish courts. Then we have all the hidden expendature in London. There is little doubt that the Scottish payment into the Treasury falls way short of what we get back.
#
2012-01-26 16:19
GERS 2009-2010 haven't had a chance to look at it. What is it the summary of what its saying?
#
2012-01-26 14:36
"The true cost of staging the 2012 Olympics is five times the figure given when London won the bid in 2005.
A Sky investigation has revealed the final cost for the Games will be more than £12bn.
However, associated costs could make the bill as high as £24bn - a staggering 10 times the original estimate.
When London bid for the Games seven years ago the predicted cost of staging the Olympics and Paralympics was put at £2.37bn.
"£24,000,000 on the London Olympics!
What would 8% of that do for sport in Scotland?
2016 - a Scottish Team in its own right at the next Olympics please!!
Slainte Mhor
A Sky investigation has revealed the final cost for the Games will be more than £12bn.
However, associated costs could make the bill as high as £24bn - a staggering 10 times the original estimate.
When London bid for the Games seven years ago the predicted cost of staging the Olympics and Paralympics was put at £2.37bn.
"£24,000,000 on the London Olympics!
What would 8% of that do for sport in Scotland?
2016 - a Scottish Team in its own right at the next Olympics please!!
Slainte Mhor
#
2012-01-26 15:24
What is more they are not paying their full whack for the coming games in Glasgow.
#
2012-01-26 14:44
HELP! I know it's been mooted for a while but does anyone know if it's been made clear that post independence there will be a referendum on EU membership and if so where can I find a reference?
#
2012-01-26 14:54
I don't think there's anything concrete, like a date for a referendum, or a publication like yesterday's.
The SNP have said that Scotland's status within the EU would be decided by the people after independence. Clearly Scotland will continue as a member (as will rUK) immediately after independence. The overriding feature of the EU throughout its history has been expansion. I think it's nonsense to suggest that either state would be expelled or would cease to be a member unless they wanted it themselves.
This does not mean that negotiation would not happen. It clearly would. It could be argued that these negotiations would necessitate a decision on membership, but I don't think it would. Membership would continue, even during renegotiation.
The SNP have said that Scotland's status within the EU would be decided by the people after independence. Clearly Scotland will continue as a member (as will rUK) immediately after independence. The overriding feature of the EU throughout its history has been expansion. I think it's nonsense to suggest that either state would be expelled or would cease to be a member unless they wanted it themselves.
This does not mean that negotiation would not happen. It clearly would. It could be argued that these negotiations would necessitate a decision on membership, but I don't think it would. Membership would continue, even during renegotiation.
#
2012-01-26 15:11
@wee scamp
The only vote I've heard of would be on whether or not to join the Euro, EU membership is a given as far as I understand the SNP position.
The only vote I've heard of would be on whether or not to join the Euro, EU membership is a given as far as I understand the SNP position.
#
2012-01-26 15:20
Yes, unionists like the scare story of Scotland being forced to join the Euro, but this is strange coming from those who enjoy the use of "legal fiction" so much.
Yes, new EU members are obliged to join the Euro, but there are ways round this. Sweden has de facto not joined the Euro, even though obliged to, as they have simply deliberately failed the ERM2 requirements which are a prerequisite for Euro membership.
Also, Scotland won't be a new member as such, so the point is really moot.
London loves their little legal fictions (see "can MPs resign") yet fail to appreciate the reality for Euro membership.
Yes, new EU members are obliged to join the Euro, but there are ways round this. Sweden has de facto not joined the Euro, even though obliged to, as they have simply deliberately failed the ERM2 requirements which are a prerequisite for Euro membership.
Also, Scotland won't be a new member as such, so the point is really moot.
London loves their little legal fictions (see "can MPs resign") yet fail to appreciate the reality for Euro membership.
#
2012-01-26 15:37
The obvious answer to that particular daft story is that as there were only two equal sovereign signatories on the Treaty of Union, then whatever applies to Scotland must obviouslyapply to England, (an England that signed as including Wales & Ireland).
#
2012-01-26 20:16
I doubt if Scotland will be forced to join the Euro. If the Euro survives the Eurozone countries are going to be much more careful about who gets to join and be much more strict in drawing up the convergence criteria and monitoring them to be sure that they have been met.
One of the problems with the Euro was the criteria for joining and the economic conditions to be met were too loose with the result that countries joined who should not have been allowed in.
So Europe is going to be much more selective in future. Forcing countries to join will not be on the agenda.
One of the problems with the Euro was the criteria for joining and the economic conditions to be met were too loose with the result that countries joined who should not have been allowed in.
So Europe is going to be much more selective in future. Forcing countries to join will not be on the agenda.
#
2012-01-27 17:38
[quote name="Legerwood"]I doubt if Scotland will be forced to join the Euro. quote]
Actually it would be a real hoot if we joined the euro -
then we could refuse bank of England notes as "not legal tender" in Scotland.
Actually it would be a real hoot if we joined the euro -
then we could refuse bank of England notes as "not legal tender" in Scotland.
#
2012-01-26 20:18
Membership is agiven but that does not preclude a referendum after independence as to whther we stay in or not. I think AS has said that it would be up to the people of Scotland to decide if we stayed in Europe or not and their opinion would be canvassed via a referendum.
#
2012-01-26 16:01
Don't know if there's concrete plans for a referendum on the EU, but AS is on record saying that we wouldn't join the euro unless conditions are right for Scotland (same line as labour & tories) and the Scottish people have a referendum on it.
Try googling it?
Try googling it?
#
2012-01-26 14:48
John Curtice is writing for the Herald now as well. He has two years of a "Dripping Roast" of this mediafest to look forward to, with no platitude left unmouthed and a well stuffed bankbook to boot!
#
2012-01-26 15:01
Sorry, but, returning to Call Kaye. I find it unacceptable that on the issue of an Independence Referendum that the producers of the programme can provide a panel of 3 to 1 i.e. Goldie,Sarwar and Rennie against Stuart Maxwell for the SNP. And you could probably add Kaye to the Unionist side.
I have e mailed Fiona Hyslop accordingly suggesting a word in McQuarries shell like.
The balance in last nights programme was as it should be at all times in this debate.
I have e mailed Fiona Hyslop accordingly suggesting a word in McQuarries shell like.
The balance in last nights programme was as it should be at all times in this debate.
#
2012-01-26 15:08
For accuracy Patrick Harvie should have been on, I don't think there was an explanation why he didn't turn up on air so the plan was to have 3-2. I just hope more people who are pro independent other than SNP/Greens or Margo start appearing on the airwaves, would widen things out from the wholly party political debate we have at the moment.
#
2012-01-26 15:05
O/T and apologies if anyone has posted this already but I saw this in the Metro and made me smile...
p.twimg.com/.../
(hope the link works!) Nice to see Michael Moore has officially switched to being a Tory...according to the Metro anyway...if the show fits and all that...
p.twimg.com/.../
(hope the link works!) Nice to see Michael Moore has officially switched to being a Tory...according to the Metro anyway...if the show fits and all that...
#
2012-01-26 15:46
Actually it is probably all my fault. I said, "A pox on both their houses to the Tory/liblab coalition.
#
2012-01-27 17:41
Quoting Auld Bob:
AND that was probably a standard insult when you were a mere stripling.
Actually it is probably all my fault. I said, "A pox on both their houses to the Tory/liblab coalition.
AND that was probably a standard insult when you were a mere stripling.
#
2012-01-26 15:32
Quoting Woodside:
Its on democracy live
news.bbc.co.uk/.../default.stm
15:30 for the debate.
correction sorry 14:55hrs
Claim of Right debate is in the Parliament today starting at 2.55.
Its on democracy live
news.bbc.co.uk/.../default.stm
15:30 for the debate.
correction sorry 14:55hrs
#
2012-01-26 15:11
Having listened to Call Kaye this morning (where a woman came on bleating about how we could not survive without subsidies from the English) and having just read through the comments on the Referendum Consultation website (where many others are convinced we cannot survive without English largess), it seems we have much to do to convince people of Scotland's viability as an independent country. It is not helped by the negative comments being put up by people who are very obviously affiliated to the London Parties.
scotreferendum.com/.../...
scotreferendum.com/.../...
#
2012-01-26 15:25
I'm afraid that I've always thought this would be the main problem in convincing people. In my opinion it is key, and if people could understand the truth then there would be an overwhelming yes vote.
Salmond is an economist (not just an oil economist). I would hope that he and his team have some plan for getting the truth out on Scotland's finances.
There must be a way of breaking through Westminster's opacity on this issue.
Salmond is an economist (not just an oil economist). I would hope that he and his team have some plan for getting the truth out on Scotland's finances.
There must be a way of breaking through Westminster's opacity on this issue.
#
2012-01-26 15:50
Dead easy. Just ask everyone who says otherwise. And your figures for that are just what?
#
2012-01-26 15:26
Isn't it remarkable that people who think that we are being subsidised feel that the SNP are mad for wanting this situation to end?
They feel that Scotland should carry on being subsidised by a bankrupt nation; a nation bankrupt by gross financial mismanagement and spending on weapons of WMD, and that this is a desirable state of affairs.
They feel that Scotland should carry on being subsidised by a bankrupt nation; a nation bankrupt by gross financial mismanagement and spending on weapons of WMD, and that this is a desirable state of affairs.
#
2012-01-26 15:30
Yes, it is indicative of the woeful standards of financial education. But it is also indicative of being worn down to accepting your lot.
I think many people are in personal debt now, and just see that as they way it is, and Scotland is no different.
I don't know what the answer is other than try to expose the truth. This is one aspect of the campaign that possibly has to be negative. The message of stolen wealth needs to get out, but out in a way that provides a remedy, not just tries to shift blame.
I think many people are in personal debt now, and just see that as they way it is, and Scotland is no different.
I don't know what the answer is other than try to expose the truth. This is one aspect of the campaign that possibly has to be negative. The message of stolen wealth needs to get out, but out in a way that provides a remedy, not just tries to shift blame.
#
2012-01-26 15:32
On FMQs today both Johann Lamont and Ruth Davidson went on currency issues. I wonder if this is the start of the new unionist coalition in action. If so, it's going to be like the Fran and Anna of Scottish politics.
#
2012-01-26 15:57
Did you not also notice that they were left with lots of egg on their faces? They asked stupid questions, as did Rennie. The questions they asked all were shown to not be the case. The question on the Bank of England was a classic. The Bank of England is neither English nor government controlled. Made a UK, (not England), state bank in 1946 and made independent company in 1998 by Gordon Brown. All three opposition party leaders asked questions that were based upon myths. Myths they had obviously believed.
#
2012-01-26 17:40
Well they have gone on the same themes before, but it didn't do them a lot of good.
I have noticed from time to time when Salmond makes nonsense of their questions their ususl response is to grimace (very ugly in the case of some MSPs), pop their eyes out on their cheeks and shake their head from side to side. All for the benefit of the viewers. Similar to the nodding dogs syndrome we see at Holyrood and also at PMQs.
I have noticed from time to time when Salmond makes nonsense of their questions their ususl response is to grimace (very ugly in the case of some MSPs), pop their eyes out on their cheeks and shake their head from side to side. All for the benefit of the viewers. Similar to the nodding dogs syndrome we see at Holyrood and also at PMQs.
#
2012-01-26 15:35
Is yesterdays televised debate with sturgeon, wallace etc available anywhereonline to watch?
#
2012-01-26 15:42
afternoon McHaggis i watched it on the I player this morning .the unionists still don't get it do they they get three bites at the cherry every time they are on the telly and the radio and not one of them can find anything positive to say about anything he ho
Sid
Sid
#
2012-01-26 15:42
Part of the promotion of the positive case for Independence should be a fairly substantial and damning list of what an independent Scotland would no longer have to entertain and endure.
For starters, Scotland would see:
-an end to nuclear weapons on Scottish soil;
-an end to our defence forces being sent to fight in illegal wars;
-an end to decisions taken by the unelected HoL;
-an end to interference by the Supreme Court;
-an end to decisions about who can come to live and work in Scotland, etc.
Can we make a straightforward and easily understandable list of issues like these?
For starters, Scotland would see:
-an end to nuclear weapons on Scottish soil;
-an end to our defence forces being sent to fight in illegal wars;
-an end to decisions taken by the unelected HoL;
-an end to interference by the Supreme Court;
-an end to decisions about who can come to live and work in Scotland, etc.
Can we make a straightforward and easily understandable list of issues like these?
#
2012-01-26 16:45
Read the wee booklet Your Scotland Your Future. It covers a lot of the "substance" that people are asking for on and the choices that we will face:-
Defence
Energy
Broadcasting
Justice
Transport
Finance
Pensions
The SNP was handing them out in Stonehaven the other week.
Defence
Energy
Broadcasting
Justice
Transport
Finance
Pensions
The SNP was handing them out in Stonehaven the other week.
#
2012-01-26 15:48
2014 mass protest against the BBC by begining 2014 refusing to pay TV Licence. By the time they get around to legal action Scotland will be on the way to independence and disbanding the BBC in Scotland. It would starve them of revenue and focus attention on bias.
#
2012-01-27 17:45
Quoting Islegard:
Great idea !
2014 mass protest against the BBC by begining 2014 refusing to pay TV Licence. By the time they get around to legal action Scotland will be on the way to independence and disbanding the BBC in Scotland. It would starve them of revenue and focus attention on bias.
Great idea !
#
2012-01-26 15:58
I stopped paying some two years ago.
Bought a really big AppleMac. Watch news and events the world over.
Who on here still pays for a tv licence?
Bought a really big AppleMac. Watch news and events the world over.
Who on here still pays for a tv licence?
#
2012-01-26 17:35
I think we need to move on a bit regarding watching TV on the internet.
It's ok for individual viewing but not so good for family viewing, but I do believe the new generation of TVs will allow a TV to behave like a PC with an internet connection so that everyone can watch at the same time. Maybe that's the time to do a boycott of the BBC licence.
It's ok for individual viewing but not so good for family viewing, but I do believe the new generation of TVs will allow a TV to behave like a PC with an internet connection so that everyone can watch at the same time. Maybe that's the time to do a boycott of the BBC licence.
#
2012-01-26 18:34
Quoting J Wil:
The BBC now flash up a warning re the licence on the broadband if you watch iPlayer live.
Watched the Burns tribute last night on BBC Alba from Nashville. Braw ;o))))
I think we need to move on a bit regarding watching TV on the internet.
It's ok for individual viewing but not so good for family viewing, but I do believe the new generation of TVs will allow a TV to behave like a PC with an internet connection so that everyone can watch at the same time. Maybe that's the time to do a boycott of the BBC licence.
The BBC now flash up a warning re the licence on the broadband if you watch iPlayer live.
Watched the Burns tribute last night on BBC Alba from Nashville. Braw ;o))))
#
2012-01-26 16:29
On Call Kay(e)this morning, although there were some uninformed unionist supporters who phoned in still spouting the "we need English subsidies" myth, I was surprised by the brief positive moment of agreement amongst ALL of the panel of MSPs re the economic viability of an independent Scotland.
On the other hand, I was angered by the "Ian from Edinburgh" character's unfair, and unchallanged, vitriolic personal attack on Alex Salmond, describing him as a vile person and a dictator. This creature then showed his true (blue) colours, with his sycophantic greeting to "Miss Goldie". Said it all really, and showed true Tory Cameronesque contempt for the SNP and the concept of Scottish independence.
On the other hand, I was angered by the "Ian from Edinburgh" character's unfair, and unchallanged, vitriolic personal attack on Alex Salmond, describing him as a vile person and a dictator. This creature then showed his true (blue) colours, with his sycophantic greeting to "Miss Goldie". Said it all really, and showed true Tory Cameronesque contempt for the SNP and the concept of Scottish independence.
#
2012-01-26 16:32
I've just watched the embarrassment that was the Wallace and Lamont show and could only think, WTF!
What on earth was Wallace on and what the devil did Lamont mean when she was going on about 'wasteful competition'?
Even if you've got two builders in the same village, they are in competition with each other.
Jeez.
What on earth was Wallace on and what the devil did Lamont mean when she was going on about 'wasteful competition'?
Even if you've got two builders in the same village, they are in competition with each other.
Jeez.
#
2012-01-26 17:11
The highlight of the debate for me was when the young chap in the audience referred to Wallace as the old guy with the grey hair - who looks like a relic, and speaks like a relic.
We should be working on the youngsters for future support. A young lady took Wallace to task last night for stating that the only people who should be allowed to vote in the referendum were those who voted in the Scottish elections last year.
The SNP want to give the vote to 16/17 year old adults. The unionists want to disenfranchise them. They're considered old enough to marry, fight, kill and die for their country, pay taxes, stand trial as an adult and so on, but not considered by the unionists as being responsible enough to have a say in the future of their country.
We should be working on the youngsters for future support. A young lady took Wallace to task last night for stating that the only people who should be allowed to vote in the referendum were those who voted in the Scottish elections last year.
The SNP want to give the vote to 16/17 year old adults. The unionists want to disenfranchise them. They're considered old enough to marry, fight, kill and die for their country, pay taxes, stand trial as an adult and so on, but not considered by the unionists as being responsible enough to have a say in the future of their country.
#
2012-01-26 18:02
Jimbo 2012-01-26 16:11
“The SNP want to give the vote to 16/17 year old adults. The unionists want to disenfranchise them. They're considered old enough to marry, fight, kill and die for their country, pay taxes, stand trial as an adult and so on, but not considered by the unionists as being responsible enough to have a say in the future of their country.”
As a matter of interest, do political parties allow 16/17 year old adults, to join, with full voting rights?
“The SNP want to give the vote to 16/17 year old adults. The unionists want to disenfranchise them. They're considered old enough to marry, fight, kill and die for their country, pay taxes, stand trial as an adult and so on, but not considered by the unionists as being responsible enough to have a say in the future of their country.”
As a matter of interest, do political parties allow 16/17 year old adults, to join, with full voting rights?
#
2012-01-26 19:11
Hi Exel,
Quote:
Yes, we do - In the SNP 16-year-olds get full membership and voting rights.
Quote:
As a matter of interest, do political parties allow 16/17 year old adults, to join, with full voting rights?
Yes, we do - In the SNP 16-year-olds get full membership and voting rights.
#
2012-01-26 20:34
I believe there may also be some parties that let cats and dugs in to up their membership numbers.
#
2012-01-26 18:31
Quoting Jimbo:
Jings ah thought he said "looks like an Elephant and sound like an Elephant." I did laugh at the look on the old tarts face.
Must get this bloody hearing aid checked.
The highlight of the debate for me was when the young chap in the audience referred to Wallace as the old guy with the grey hair - who looks like a relic, and speaks like a relic.
We should be working on the youngsters for future support. A young lady took Wallace to task last night for stating that the only people who should be allowed to vote in the referendum were those who voted in the Scottish elections last year.
The SNP want to give the vote to 16/17 year old adults. The unionists want to disenfranchise them. They're considered old enough to marry, fight, kill and die for their country, pay taxes, stand trial as an adult and so on, but not considered by the unionists as being responsible enough to have a say in the future of their country.
Jings ah thought he said "looks like an Elephant and sound like an Elephant." I did laugh at the look on the old tarts face.
Must get this bloody hearing aid checked.
#
2012-01-26 16:36
I think some in the SNP are asking the same question Compromising his position as an impartial giver of legal advise
He was so rude and aggresive I do hope it backfires on him
Now that would be justice
He was so rude and aggresive I do hope it backfires on him
Now that would be justice
#
2012-01-26 16:38
Listening to the Claim of Right debate, coupled with J Lamont in FMQ's Labour have clearly decided not to use independence but rather separatist, they really are in negative overdrive.
#
2012-01-26 16:56
Natch - they're being advised by titans of political acumen like this one..
www.labourhame.com/.../2788
www.labourhame.com/.../2788
#
2012-01-26 17:07
Thanks for the link, very apposite to my point, also for a new word, I didn't know the meaning of natch, but the online urban dictionary made it clear.
#
2012-01-26 20:50
'Natch' was a common word amongst the young teddy boys when I was still at school.
DA's (ducks ar@'se') greasy hair combed meeting at the back and drain pipes (troosers). Looked forward to getting a vauxhall vanguard too.
I could hardly wait till I was old enough to get kitted out but then the 60's and the beatles etc blew it all away.
:@)
DA's (ducks ar@'se') greasy hair combed meeting at the back and drain pipes (troosers). Looked forward to getting a vauxhall vanguard too.
I could hardly wait till I was old enough to get kitted out but then the 60's and the beatles etc blew it all away.
:@)
#
2012-01-26 16:43
The wee booklet Your Scotland Your Future must be given more publicity. It covers a lot of the "substance" that people are asking for on and the choices that we will face:-
Defence
Energy
Broadcasting
Justice
Transport
Finance
Pensions
This is a very good starting place for explanations of what an independent Scotland will need.
Defence
Energy
Broadcasting
Justice
Transport
Finance
Pensions
This is a very good starting place for explanations of what an independent Scotland will need.
#
2012-01-26 17:45
Quoting farrochie:
I don't really need the booklet but there plenty who could do with reading it.However the feedback I've had is that it is very difficult to read it online.I did have a look at the web site and would have to agree.Will check the SNP site and see if I can get some of these booklets just for passing around and leaving lying around.
The wee booklet Your Scotland Your Future must be given more publicity. It covers a lot of the "substance" that people are asking for on and the choices that we will face:-
Defence
Energy
Broadcasting
Justice
Transport
Finance
Pensions
This is a very good starting place for explanations of what an independent Scotland will need.
I don't really need the booklet but there plenty who could do with reading it.However the feedback I've had is that it is very difficult to read it online.I did have a look at the web site and would have to agree.Will check the SNP site and see if I can get some of these booklets just for passing around and leaving lying around.
#
2012-01-26 18:16
I got a couple of spare copies fae the guy who was handing them out. These days there are people that prefer booklets, those that prefer to read online, some that want life in 140 characters.
As someone who has written many oil company documents and realised that I was the only one who read them, I know that we need to use every comms method available.
If we could get a 1-pager that sets out the main issues.
Acknowledging the need for further consultation, following Independence the Scottish Government with support of Parliament, shall:
Currency: Adopt transitional arrangements to ensure a stable currency; consider longer term currency arrangements.
Defence: Ensure that Scotland is secure by having a defence force that is appropriate to the risks that we face; make arrangements with friendly neighbouring countries to make best use of defence resources; be in a position to assist in international peace keeping and humanitarian.
etc
Does anything like this exist?
As someone who has written many oil company documents and realised that I was the only one who read them, I know that we need to use every comms method available.
If we could get a 1-pager that sets out the main issues.
Acknowledging the need for further consultation, following Independence the Scottish Government with support of Parliament, shall:
Currency: Adopt transitional arrangements to ensure a stable currency; consider longer term currency arrangements.
Defence: Ensure that Scotland is secure by having a defence force that is appropriate to the risks that we face; make arrangements with friendly neighbouring countries to make best use of defence resources; be in a position to assist in international peace keeping and humanitarian.
etc
Does anything like this exist?
#
2012-01-26 20:06
Quote:
A friend of mine recently mentioned getting something through the post and from what she said it sounded like this booklet.
Has it been posted out? Because I have not received one.
farrochie 2012-01-26 15:43
The wee booklet Your Scotland Your Future must be given more publicity. It covers a lot of the "substance" that people are asking for on and the choices that we will face:-
Defence
Energy
Broadcasting
Justice
Transport
Finance
Pensions
This is a very good starting place for explanations of what an independent Scotland will need.
A friend of mine recently mentioned getting something through the post and from what she said it sounded like this booklet.
Has it been posted out? Because I have not received one.
#
2012-01-26 22:30
It has not been posted out to my knowledge. It was available in two sizes, plus a small A5 page. I have this page stuck to the window of my front door.
#
2012-01-26 16:58
Where on earth do Labour get this factious figure of '200 people being made unemployed every day' mantra
Who are they trying to impress
Is it actaully based on anything?
Who are they trying to impress
Is it actaully based on anything?
#
2012-01-26 17:01
High everyone. I've been looking in on NNS for a while and thank god for some sanity! The Unionists are becoming ridiculous.
Will we ever have a mature debate instead of pandas, timing, legality(Jim Wallace is a buffoon of the highest order) etc.
Will we ever have a mature debate instead of pandas, timing, legality(Jim Wallace is a buffoon of the highest order) etc.
#
2012-01-26 17:10
Old Smokey 2012-01-26 10:52
Excellent analysis of last nights debate and yes Riddoch was excellent and hammered poor Lamont and Wallace. Oh it was painful to watch but highly entertaining.
Nicola of course had to be a bit more diplomatic but never the less she more than won her argument with Lammy and Wallace.
Excellent analysis of last nights debate and yes Riddoch was excellent and hammered poor Lamont and Wallace. Oh it was painful to watch but highly entertaining.
Nicola of course had to be a bit more diplomatic but never the less she more than won her argument with Lammy and Wallace.
#
2012-01-26 17:40
I have to say I can't disagree with what Margo McDonald has said in the Claim of Right debate re just having one question. Let's hope that's where we end up, we'll see. But with as she said honest debate it is winnable.
#
2012-01-26 17:42
Jings, some lord fae NI claiming that if Scotland becomes independent, NI will have foreign country to the south, and one to the east!
Do we laugh or cry?
Do we laugh or cry?
#
2012-01-26 18:55
Lord Empey (Reg Empey), formerly of the Vanguard Unionist Party, was the lord who made the comment.
[From Wiki: The Vanguard Unionist Progressive Party (VUPP), informally known as Ulster Vanguard, was a unionist political party which existed in Northern Ireland between 1973 and 1978. It was closely affiliated with several loyalist paramilitary groups.]
[From Wiki: The Vanguard Unionist Progressive Party (VUPP), informally known as Ulster Vanguard, was a unionist political party which existed in Northern Ireland between 1973 and 1978. It was closely affiliated with several loyalist paramilitary groups.]
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2012-01-26 19:52
I can imagine! There's seems to be a lot of them infesting the retard site at the moment.
More of us on here should pop in there from time to time to back up the nationalist support there.
Seems the DR political site is also being visited with plenty of our southern cousins of late. Maybe the DR is opening up comments to mirror newspapers down south.
A BBC tactic.
More of us on here should pop in there from time to time to back up the nationalist support there.
Seems the DR political site is also being visited with plenty of our southern cousins of late. Maybe the DR is opening up comments to mirror newspapers down south.
A BBC tactic.
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2012-01-26 20:31
Farrochie
Lord Empey was leader of the Ulster Unionist party until but stood down due to the party going backwards rather than forwards under his leadership. It seems to lack ideas and seems to be dying a slow death. The leader is now one Tom Elliot, a fervent Orangeman, who called Sinn Fein members scum at the election count in Omagh in May. I read recently that us cybies are referred to as scum too but have been unable to verify it.Lord Empey is worried about being stuck in Norn Irn between 2 foreign countries!! No-one his party is dying.
Lord Empey was leader of the Ulster Unionist party until but stood down due to the party going backwards rather than forwards under his leadership. It seems to lack ideas and seems to be dying a slow death. The leader is now one Tom Elliot, a fervent Orangeman, who called Sinn Fein members scum at the election count in Omagh in May. I read recently that us cybies are referred to as scum too but have been unable to verify it.Lord Empey is worried about being stuck in Norn Irn between 2 foreign countries!! No-one his party is dying.
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2012-01-26 18:50
I hope someone puts Sturgeon Vs Wallace on Youtube.I thought she was at the top of her game last night.And so was Ms Lamont.Amazing the difference in ability,isn't it?
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2012-01-26 19:26
"The successor State does not derive its sovereignty from the predecessor State, but from international law and from its own statehood."
untreaty.un.org/.../...
Page 77
untreaty.un.org/.../...
Page 77
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2012-01-26 20:02
In the clip from FMQs shown on Reporting Scotland did I really hear Ms Lamont say that SG should be concentrating on more important matters such as unemployment rather than a referndum?
From what she aaid it was almost as if we were back in 2009-10 when the Unionists at Holyrood were saying there was no point in holding a referendum and that it was all a waste of time.
maybe I mis-heard but maybe not.
From what she aaid it was almost as if we were back in 2009-10 when the Unionists at Holyrood were saying there was no point in holding a referendum and that it was all a waste of time.
maybe I mis-heard but maybe not.
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2012-01-26 20:34
Yet again though most of the economy and employment is reserved to Westminster. For the SG to concentrate on unemployment they would need powers for employment and the economy to be handed back to Holyrood. That would only occur under independence. So I suppose the SG could be said to be concentrating on unemployment.
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2012-01-26 23:41
My thoughts entirely but I think you might have to draw pictures - lots of them - to get some politicians to understand that.
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2012-01-26 20:05
A bit concerned that the Scottish Government don't have a coherent response to the BofE being the lender of last resort. It's not coming across very well if they do. The unionists will exploit this at every oppurtunity. Regarding votes for 16/17 year olds. This is a continual open goal for SNP to remind Labour that if they're old enough to pay taxes to fund illegal wars in Iraq instigated by Tony Blair and sent to those illegal follies advocated by the same Labour MP's who trooped into the yes lobby at westminster volunteering them for such an invasion. They're old enough too vote.
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2012-01-26 21:04
Sorry to go back to PM Westminster questions, but this is the first chance I've had to comment on it.
I am always happy to hear anyone quote or recite Burns, even in a strange language, but I am reminded that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Least said about Camerons quip the better. I would simply remind him that a few real politicians have learned a thing or two from understanding Burns works. Not least President Lincoln who could, and often did, recite whole chunks of his works. Lincoln said he learnt the meaning of humanity from reading Burns. Burns works were always at his bedside along with the sonnets of Shakespear and the Bible.
Then there was the lady quoting in complete ignorance the lines from "Does haughty Gaul invasion threat"
Be Britain still to Britain true,
Amang oursels united!
Burns at the time was in the employ of the Westminster Government, and under preasure from the establishment for his his lack of support for a war against France, a bit like today, from his superiors. He was "encouraged" to pen something to take the sting out of those who would sack him if given the chance. Burns did exactly that knowing his words would never be understood by his enemies. His friends of course knew exactly what he was saying in the final lines.
Who will not sing GOD SAVE THE KING
Shall hang as high's the steeple;
But while we sing GOD SAVE THE KING
We'll ne'er forget THE PEOPLE!
(The caps are Burns original)
Another thing that has always puzzled me is seeing the Tory ranks stand to attention and sing, enough to raise the roof, Blake's Jerusalem.
It is a SOCIALIST ANTHEM from his patriotic English heart, about tearing down the social injustice and corruption of his day to build a New Jerusalem in Englands green and pleasent land. Maybe the Tories just like the last line without understanding in a word of the story.
So there you have my thoughts about having a little knowledge, but no understanding of what you are saying.
Dr Johnson when asked why he allowed a clear incorrect misunderstandin g to be printed in his dictionary replied "Ignorange madam, sheer ignorance". He was no fool, but I fear less can be said for the two performers at Westminster PM's question time.
I am always happy to hear anyone quote or recite Burns, even in a strange language, but I am reminded that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Least said about Camerons quip the better. I would simply remind him that a few real politicians have learned a thing or two from understanding Burns works. Not least President Lincoln who could, and often did, recite whole chunks of his works. Lincoln said he learnt the meaning of humanity from reading Burns. Burns works were always at his bedside along with the sonnets of Shakespear and the Bible.
Then there was the lady quoting in complete ignorance the lines from "Does haughty Gaul invasion threat"
Be Britain still to Britain true,
Amang oursels united!
Burns at the time was in the employ of the Westminster Government, and under preasure from the establishment for his his lack of support for a war against France, a bit like today, from his superiors. He was "encouraged" to pen something to take the sting out of those who would sack him if given the chance. Burns did exactly that knowing his words would never be understood by his enemies. His friends of course knew exactly what he was saying in the final lines.
Who will not sing GOD SAVE THE KING
Shall hang as high's the steeple;
But while we sing GOD SAVE THE KING
We'll ne'er forget THE PEOPLE!
(The caps are Burns original)
Another thing that has always puzzled me is seeing the Tory ranks stand to attention and sing, enough to raise the roof, Blake's Jerusalem.
It is a SOCIALIST ANTHEM from his patriotic English heart, about tearing down the social injustice and corruption of his day to build a New Jerusalem in Englands green and pleasent land. Maybe the Tories just like the last line without understanding in a word of the story.
So there you have my thoughts about having a little knowledge, but no understanding of what you are saying.
Dr Johnson when asked why he allowed a clear incorrect misunderstandin g to be printed in his dictionary replied "Ignorange madam, sheer ignorance". He was no fool, but I fear less can be said for the two performers at Westminster PM's question time.
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2012-01-27 02:44
a single yes/no to
Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?
i believe it will be a very close result,
2 years from the actual referendum, is too far in the future to makes any exact predictions,
at he moment, roughly
1/3 in favour(SNP)
1/3 undecided or neutral(Scottis h libdems)
1/3 against(tory/lab)
i think that 2/3 (YES/NO) of the population made up their minds, years ago,
The battle will be for the floating voters. ie. the scottish lib dems
This type of one question referendum forces such floating voters to actually make a choice, rather that choosing a middle ground option. Or to sit on the fence.
There is no "not proven" verdict in a yes/no referendum
whether or not there is a second question has still to be decided, but at the very least, we know what the 1st question is.
There is 2 years to decide whether there needs to be a second question.
The YES campaign has kept its option open......It has said It will consider allowing a 2nd question....(doesnt mean they will neccessarily allow one)
The NO campaign has dismissed this option already. high risk strategy
a 2nd question is a "get out of jail free" card for the YES campaign, even though it could possibly reduce the 1st question YES vote.
It would also be "get out of jail free" card for the NO campaign
The NO campaign should have tucked this card under the edge of the board, face down
If the YES campaign loses, they will immediately start campaigning for a devo max referendum anyway
Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?
i believe it will be a very close result,
2 years from the actual referendum, is too far in the future to makes any exact predictions,
at he moment, roughly
1/3 in favour(SNP)
1/3 undecided or neutral(Scottis h libdems)
1/3 against(tory/lab)
i think that 2/3 (YES/NO) of the population made up their minds, years ago,
The battle will be for the floating voters. ie. the scottish lib dems
This type of one question referendum forces such floating voters to actually make a choice, rather that choosing a middle ground option. Or to sit on the fence.
There is no "not proven" verdict in a yes/no referendum
whether or not there is a second question has still to be decided, but at the very least, we know what the 1st question is.
There is 2 years to decide whether there needs to be a second question.
The YES campaign has kept its option open......It has said It will consider allowing a 2nd question....(doesnt mean they will neccessarily allow one)
The NO campaign has dismissed this option already. high risk strategy
a 2nd question is a "get out of jail free" card for the YES campaign, even though it could possibly reduce the 1st question YES vote.
It would also be "get out of jail free" card for the NO campaign
The NO campaign should have tucked this card under the edge of the board, face down
If the YES campaign loses, they will immediately start campaigning for a devo max referendum anyway
#
2012-01-27 17:39
Looks like the Daily Record is now doing a Survey on Scottish independence.
Opinions have to be submitted by 6pm tonight.
quaydigitalscotland.co.uk/.../...
Opinions have to be submitted by 6pm tonight.
quaydigitalscotland.co.uk/.../...
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2012-01-27 17:54
Nicola was at her best when discussin 16/17 year olds voting - and nailed J. Lamont with, "yes, sure, you want them to vote but not now".
BRILLIANT RIPOSTE !
BRILLIANT RIPOSTE !
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