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By Martin Kelly
 
Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has come under pressure to explain her party’s stance on further devolution for Scotland after denying UK PM David Cameron had suggested more powers could be devolved to Scotland if it rejected independence.
 
SNP MSP Stewart Maxwell has written to Ms Davidson requesting that she clarify her comments, after she further confused her party’s position on more powers for the Scottish Parliament in an interview on Newsnight Scotland.

In the interview Ms Davidson denied the PM had offered more devolution of powers in the event of the No campaign triumphing in the independence referendum.

Quizzed by host Glenn Campbell on the Prime Minister’s new stance, Ms Davidson flatly denied he had said any such thing.

“But you both agree that there should be more devolution after a referendum if independence is defeated?” asked the BBC presenter.

“Well that is not what either of us said … we are about to get it [more powers], it is called the Scotland Bill.” Ms Davidson replied.

Asked if the Scotland Bill would be enough to meet demands for further devolution in Scotland the Scottish Tory leader replied “I think it could”.

The comments from Ms Davidson are in stark contrast to those of her leader Mr Cameron who, in a visit to Scotland to meet First Minister Alex Salmond, stated “When the referendum on independence is over, I am open to looking at how the devolved settlement can be improved further, and yes, that means considering what further powers could be devolved”

In the letter Mr Maxwell writes to Ms Davidson:

Previously you stated that The Scotland Bill represented “a line in the sand” with regard to more devolved powers.  Then, last week in Edinburgh, Prime Minister David Cameron raised the prospect of more powers being devolved to Scotland.

However, on Monday night, in your Newsnight interview, you once again referred to the Scotland Bill as being the only extension to powers you will consider. Obviously, the different positions stated by you and the Prime Minister are not compatible.

It would be helpful to the national debate if the people of Scotland had a clear idea of where you and your party stand on Scotland’s constitutional future. I would be grateful if you¸ as leader of the Conservative Party in Scotland, can give some clarity on this matter.

Mr Maxwell, who is a member of Holyrood’s Scotland Bill Committee said:

“Ms Davidson’s apparent reluctance to move from her “line in the sand” position over the Scotland Bill as the only possible concession to increasing devolved powers reveals just how panicked and unclear the Tories are over their stance on Scotland’s constitutional future.

“Who are Scottish voters to believe: the Prime Minister with his promises of ‘jam tomorrow’, or Ms Davidson with her refusal to even consider an improvement to the inadequate Scotland Bill?”

Mr Maxwell refuted claims made by Ms Davidson in the interview in which she claimed that the SNP had failed to answer questions on defence and the economy and added:

“This latest gaffe by the leader of the Tories in Scotland has only further stalled their efforts and shows that the anti-independence camp can’t get out of first gear.

“The problems are mounting up for the Tories and the anti-independence camp.  The SNP’s plans are well documented with half a million words now published putting forward a positive case for the people of Scotland to vote Yes for independence at the referendum in Autumn 2014.”

The confusion caused by Ms Davidson’s comments is the latest in a series of public statements that have appeared at odds with her party leaders in London. 

The former BBC Scotland presenter, who replaced Annabel Goldie as party head in Scotland, recently had to backtrack after describing the SNP’s proposed referendum question as "fair, decisive and legal" only to subsequently discover party bosses attacking the question claiming it was biased.

The comments from David Cameron were echoed by former Chancellor Alistair Darling who on Sunday conceded that the status quo was unsatisfactory.

“I don’t think anybody would argue that the status quo, what we have at the moment, is satisfactory.  It was fine in 1998, things have moved on, the constitution is always something you need to look at and see what’s best.” The Labour MP said.

Comments  

 
# Big Eye 2012-02-22 07:38
I would take issue with the comment that the anti independence camp cannot get out of first gear.

Surely the polls indicate they are stuck in reverse!
 
 
# Chateaulait 57 2012-02-22 08:08
They wish they were stuck in reverse.

They've dropped the key's down a stank.
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-02-22 09:46
...and they don't even know where they parked the wagon!
 
 
# Blanco 2012-02-22 07:44
And to think, they could have had Murdo! :)
 
 
# mountaincadre 2012-02-22 07:57
I watched this interview and listening to Ms Davidson made my skin crawl,nothing personel against her but i would'nt trust her as far as i could throw her.Herself,Willie Rennie and Ms Lamont are there for one reason only, as placemen/woman, to do there masters bidding, let no one be under any elusion about these people, they would sell the people of Scotland in a nano second, ironicly enough they are not like Foulkes etc who do it for ermine and cash, no these people will do it just to please there masters, and that makes them even more dangerous.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-02-22 09:58
It would have been kind of her master to actually tell her what he wanted her to do wouldn't it? But I suppose he thought, 'She's only Scottish, why bother?'
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 15:43
I know he was seen with her at South Queensferry when he had his wee "day trip" out of London last week but I get the impression he thought she was just the local tour guide.

Does he actually know if the Tories at Holyrood have a "leader"? Maybe he still thinks it is dear old Auntie Bella who's the leader.
 
 
# mealer 2012-02-22 08:09
Ms Davidson was elected leader on a "no more powers" ticket.Line in the sand and all that.Surely we must admire her desire to stick to what she said in the leadership campaign? Her position is,of course,at odds with the London leaderships STATED policy.She knows it,but is trying to obfiscate.Trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes.And that certainly isnt admirable.But nobodys buying it.And wheres Labour ?
 
 
# John Lyons 2012-02-22 10:33
I'm not sure what she's up to, but don't think for one minute that she's thick.

On the one hand we have Scottish Labour acting like London's lapdogs. On the other we have Scottish Tories at odds with their own London leadership. Lamont is finished in an independent Scotland. She doesn't have the backbone to stand up for Scotland and just does as she's told. Hopefully Post independence Labour will get shot of her and get back to proper working class politics.

Then there's the sneaky clever Tories.
I think Davidson is playing a very clever game here. It could just be possible that she believes independence is inevitable, and as a result is not standing side by side with Cameron and is not acting like his biggest supporter. What happens to the Scottish Tories in an Independent Scotland? And more important for Ruthie, who leads them? This has to be what she's thinking about, and this has to be the game she's playing. (Not very well I have to say, but she is playing.)

And the Lib Dems do nothing. What is the point of them? I can't remember which one of them commented on the referendum saying it was "Much ado about nothing" but I'm not surprised it was a Lib Dem. That should be thier party slogan.
 
 
# alasdairmac 2012-02-22 12:03
You could be right John Lyons. I got a funny feeling over the last week from Cameron's speech and Davidson's interview that they are "doing what is expected of them" and just going through the motions of trying to save the union. There was no real attempt by either to advance any tangible benefits of it for Scotland. Not that there are any, but they might at least have tried!
 
 
# rhymer 2012-02-22 14:35
I doubt it.
None of the present "leaders" of unionist parties in Scotland will survive independence. Wee Ruthie seems to be cast adrift, as her line in the sand didn't survive Dave's tide coming in. Johanne is becoming more and more incoherent and desperate. And of course Willie is off in a world of his own.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 15:47
Davidson, Lamont, and the other one. Three "leaders" who continually talk a load of old garbage and put Scotland down.

Hell I get more sense out of my three budgies that you get out of these three idiots. And all my budgies do is chirp!
 
 
# alasdairmac 2012-02-22 19:07
Did somebody mention Johann Lament there? Who she? Seriously, she has been conspicuous by her complete absence since Labour's Glasgow council budget fiasco. Not a press quote, TV appearance, nothing.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 19:12
No appearance from her either to "discuss" the lamentable actions of her "team" at Stirling council.

Perhaps this is Labour's new policy to win the voters back. Get councillors elected, YEAH RIGHT!, let them screw up and then hang them all out to dry. Is this what Labour considers the right definition of "Transparency"?
 
 
# PrideoftheClyde 2012-02-22 08:16
The ironic thing is that it is Scottish unionist politicians that seem to be suffering from the interference of their Westminster masters. The implosion of the Labour party in Glasgow with interference from London in selecting candidates cited as the primary cause. Now poor old Ruth can't even have a coherent policy on Scotland's constitutional future because Dave keeps on making a new one up every other week (depending on where he is/who he is talking to/his mood/what he had for supper last night).

I can only hypothesise that this is some kind of sick psychological experiment: the London parties have secretly come together to make sure the Scottish branches of their parties support the union. At the same time they interfere with and contradict their Scottish colleagues to the extent that a sane person would conclude that maybe being independent from the London parties might be better for them. They then watch Ruth Davidson's head explode.
 
 
# fiona4independance 2012-02-22 11:43
What about what David Cameron said in Edinburgh about being sad if Scotland became independent. I think that was an experiment just to see how many people died laughing.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-02-22 08:16
I just find them strange, an odd lot. They don't fit. The argument for an independent Scotland has become the only solid stance. Their stance of keeping the union together seems "plastic" and manufactured.

Correct me if you think I'm wrong.
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-22 09:44
The no campaign has more or less revealed it's true colours to all over the course of the last several weeks: throw as much lies and shit at the debate as possible, and enough of it might stick to make a difference.

We all know for a fact that the elusive 'positive case for the union' simply does not exist. The unionists toss the phrase into every other empty sound-bite but never actually articulate the argument they refer to: we can be sure that if such an argument were to exist, it would have been deployed long ago and nipped the nats in the bud before they had the chance of a power grab. Instead, the entire history of opposition to the SNP has been one of negativity, scaremongering and smear, a fact that lends weight to the argument that the unionists have been fighting a long and dirty campaign against the inevitable.
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-02-22 10:00
There are many positive reasons for retaining the union - the trouble for the unionists is that all the advantages accrue to the south of the border, and that is becoming more evident with everything they say.
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 10:21
And east of our border ...
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-22 08:39
This is like shooting fish in a barrel....this worries me, in that, surely the anti independence parties cannot be this inept for 2 and a half years.

They will come up with a cohesive strategy and argument at some point? No?
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 08:40
OK - so it's the BBC, but you used to work for them, Ruth.

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Let's see you square that circle...
 
 
# Diabloandco 2012-02-22 08:55
Thanks for that my Welsh friend - astonishingly comments were allowed on that and there are some merry little "Windae Lickers" there.
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 09:04
Thanks for your thanks, but please bear with me as I'm not a Scot - what are "Windae Lickers"?

I know what 'leche-vitrine' is in French, but I don't think it's the same as what you have. I could be wrong of course...
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 09:15
And two pieces of English syntax I picked up on in that report. (Being a professional linguist and editor helps...)

1 Call me Dave says:
"On the issue of independence, separating Scotland, leaving the United Kingdom, I am afraid there wasn't much progress."

This sentence is grammatically unsound - where do these -ing forms 'separating Scotland', 'leaving the United Kingdom' fit with the rest of the sentence? Frankly, they don't.

Secondly, the idea of 'separating Scotland' - does he mean that Scotland itself will split? That is clearly not his intention - he means 'the separating/separation of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom'. Poor show of syntax again, Prime Minister.

2 Government sources told the BBC the talks had been "frustrating".

Here the BBC's syntax falls down. (You seasoned Scots campaigners will see it as bias - and I don't say your wrong...).

Government sources, eh? WHICH Government - why the good ol' UK Government of course. The meeting was between "The Government and Mr Salmond" or maybe between "The Government and the SNP". NEVER could it be described by the BBC as a summit meeting between two Governments.

Yours, aye,
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-02-22 10:04
Cameron says that Scotland leaving the union will make him very, very sad. Now no Scot would want to do that, surely?
 
 
# Holebender 2012-02-22 12:35
Quoting Welsh Sion:
You seasoned Scots campaigners will see it as bias - and I don't say your wrong...



If you are going to pick holes in other people's use of English it is best not to make elementary mistakes yourself. ;)
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 13:26
You're (!) right, of course... These homphones get my secretarial staff every time - and you can't get the staff these days...

Otherwise, I plead the Welsh defence. It ain't my first language, guv. Honest!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 15:58
Perhaps when "Call me Dave" talks about "separating" Scotland he has an idea that we will take a chainsaw to the border and cut along "the dotted line". If this were to happen he is concerned about the cost of all the bridges that will have to be built to cross the "impending" gap!
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-22 09:22
Quoting Welsh Sion:
Thanks for your thanks, but please bear with me as I'm not a Scot - what are "Windae Lickers"?

I know what 'leche-vitrine' is in French, but I don't think it's the same as what you have. I could be wrong of course...


www.urbandictionary.com/.../

Definitely not the same as leche-vitrine
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-02-22 09:57
Dont ask Sion... its' politically incorrect.
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 10:19
sad. adj. 'happy-challenged'
 
 
# John Lyons 2012-02-22 10:43
Independent Scotland is a bit like Celtic with Rangers in administration. The biggest threat is complacency.

As for the next two years, I don't expect the Unionists to be more eloquent or coherent, but I do expect dirty tactics and sneaking things through the back door a la the 40% rule.
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-22 11:00
I expect - we've already had - dirty tactics, but there's no chance of anything like the 40% rule this time. It would have to come from Westminster rather than Edinburgh and the international community wouldn't stand for that level of interference in self-determination.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 15:53
Quote:
This is like shooting fish in a barrel....this worries me, in that, surely the anti independence parties cannot be this inept for 2 and a half years.


Oh please! :D
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-22 08:48
The answers she gave to to Campbell's questions was gobbledegook.

Talking quickly seems to be a substitute for making sense.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:02
Any chance she has been taking interview technique "lessons" from a certain J. Lamont? :D
 
 
# rodmac 2012-02-22 09:00
My take on this, yesterday. Plus more shifting sands.

.../shifting-sands
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-22 09:41
Brilliant Blog. As usual! ;-)
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-02-22 09:04
One hand not knowing what the other hand ?.
 
 
# mudfries 2012-02-22 09:09
I watched the interview and thought is was very entertaining and funny, maybe it was her straight face delivery that tried to be very serious when we all know her stance is a big joke, well it had me in kinks anyway, I'd love to see her at the Edinburgh festival, she'd go down a storm. politicians like this should be viewed as nothing more than Potholes on the path to independence, a bit of a pain, but they are easy to step over as you move forward on your journey.
 
 
# alasdairmac 2012-02-22 19:12
"Potholes on the path to independence"
Love it, need to remember it for the future.
 
 
# Bonx 2012-02-22 09:09
Fastastic. I think the SNP should make a montage of the various anti-independence parties, falling over themselves, and contradicting their and each others party, and release this on the run up to the referendum.

Amazing that it is obvious for anyone who reads ANY paper or watches more than one news report, that none of the anti independence parties know which stance to take, yet the one headline i see time and time again, is the SNP have no details behind their plans, yet they have been the most consistent in what they say.
 
 
# Roll_On_2011 2012-02-22 09:10
OT

Remaining North Sea oil ‘worth £1trillion’

pressandjournal.co.uk/.../...

About 24billion barrels could still be taken from the North Sea, with the total financial value more than what has already been extracted to date, the conference in Edinburgh heard yesterday.
 
 
# BeltaneFire 2012-02-22 09:33
This info has been doing the rounds since last year.

Charles Hendry MP, Tory energy minister, states that there are 11 billion barrels accessible, but that a further 13 billion could be optimized, and that this additional 13 billion is worth £1 trillion to the British economy.

Have a look at this video from 13 mins in:

www.youtube.com/.../
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-22 09:35
Indeed, and with the price now touching 120 USD per barrel, it becomes more valuable every passing day.

You know, I was having a think about all the arguments we see about Scotland's oil, with Labour trying to pretend it is better that it goes to London and so on. In a moment of blinding clarity, I just thought to myself, imagine any other country around the world, rich in oil and gas, and thinking twice about independence. Honestly, it is really a no brainer, Scotland is an oil and gas rich country, period. It is astoundingly dumb, that for the past near forty years, Scots have allowed it to be taken without a penny of benefit to Scotland. It truly beggars belief.

People in other countries around the world would literally laugh their socks off, at the way London has managed to take the oil for free. I mean seriously, Scots should be ashamed of themselves for idly sitting by and letting this happen.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-22 09:47
I work a lot with Norwegian companies and yes, they do laugh their socks off.
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-02-22 11:34
Quoting Louperdowg:
I work a lot with Norwegian companies and yes, they do laugh their socks off.


And have done for a long time but in the meantime they quietly take advantage of our stupidity and particularly the stupidity of the banks, their chums in the City and the Treasury and buy up the good Scottish and UK companies they want whilst investing themselves in technology and high value services to the extent that Norway is now second only to the USA in terms of the provision of sector critical high value stuff.
 
 
# The_Duke 2012-02-22 09:47
I agree RL.... I wonder if history will look very favourably at the Scots of this generation.... i fear not. But we can change it.
 
 
# megsmaw 2012-02-22 21:20
I'll be voting yes in 2014 for the sake of my children and future Scots.

I don't want to look my children and grandchildren in the eye and tell them "We had the chance to be independent and we voted no"....
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-22 09:55
I've posted this before, but I'll post it again, so that those who haven't seen it can make a copy of it and refer to it the next time a unionist spews bile about 'just how much' the oil is worth.

NICHOLAS SOAMES SECURES ADJOURNMENT
DEBATE IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON NORTH SEA OIL AND GAS

[HC 1018-i and -ii.]

"The taxes forecast to be raised from the industry in 2011-12 include some £6 billion in income tax, national insurance contributions and corporation tax paid by the supply chain companies, with an additional £11 billion from taxes on production itself. That amounts to 25% of all the corporation tax received by the Exchequer. The production of indigenous oil and gas improved the balance of payments by £35 billion in 2011, thus halving the trade deficit, and the supply chain added another £5 billion to £6 billion with exports of oilfield goods and services. Incidentally, that is an aspect of the industry that is doing extremely well here and overseas, and it is flying the flag for Britain effectively".
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 19:20
I found this S.C., it seems to be a transcript of the motion.

www.nicholassoames.org.uk/.../
 
 
# John Lyons 2012-02-22 11:32
I often wonder, if the union is so good for small oil rich countries, why isn't Norway clamouring to be part of it?
 
 
# Angus 2012-02-22 12:58
Quoting Roll_On_2011:
OT

Remaining North Sea oil ‘worth £1trillion’

pressandjournal.co.uk/.../...

About 24billion barrels could still be taken from the North Sea, with the total financial value more than what has already been extracted to date, the conference in Edinburgh heard yesterday.

Aye, and the rest, thats not including the western seaboard off of Scotland
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:10
I notice that the unionists are not so keen to use the "there's only XXX years of oil left" argument these days.

Any chance the penny is just about to drop on them that this argument doesn't work?
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-22 09:17
The Unionist camp do have a very difficult task: how do you explain to people that self-determination would be a bad thing and it's much better to rely on another country to do your thinking for you? Is it possible to express that positively? I don't think it is, which is why we've had, and will continue to have, either scare stories or vague appeals to emotion from them, with constantly shifting positions as they try to work out what shiny baubles they can tempt us with.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-22 09:22
Poor wee Ruth. I seem to remember her statement about not necessarily following party line when less than a day in the door and how she wouldn't be afraid to chin Mr Cameron if she felt he was in the wrong.

How some words come back to haunt you. Now her leader has dropped her in the sheep dip, will she come out swinging and still state 'thus far and no further?' According to her interview its all about this is what Dave actually meant. Really? Then why don't we hear this from him instead? If the Scotland bill contains the extra powers under consideration then surely he should have said so?

So many questions for Ms Davidson.

Most confusing. :)
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-22 09:39
The next FMQ's will be most entertaining.
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-22 09:44
Must admit to looking forward to it masel' RL. :)
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:22
I only have one question about tomorrows FMQ;s.

"How far into FMQ's will it before we are all rolling about on the floor with aching sides pleading with A.S. to stop?" :D
 
 
# Robert Louis 2012-02-22 09:24
Dear Ruth Davidson,

I watched your party leader and Prime minister David Cameron, on BBC television live, stating that were Scotland to vote NO, then he would be open to considering new powers for the ScottishParliam ent.

Now as we have established that fact, either David Cameron was lying or you are lying. Which is it???
 
 
# Hing em high 2012-02-22 12:30
They are both lying!
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-22 09:27
Ruthless she ain't.
 
 
# Holebender 2012-02-22 12:42
More like Truthless, methinks!
 
 
# hiorta 2012-02-22 09:28
Look! England has its Independence to choose its desired route through life.

England also has Scotland's Independence to use as is best for England.

England also has Welsh Independance to use for English ends.

England then tries to present this ridiculous fiasco as 'being best' (it is for England).

There really is NO argument.
 
 
# cokynutjoe 2012-02-22 09:34
Like the pic', obviously passing something in the parliament?
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 09:38
Quoting cokynutjoe:
Like the pic', obviously passing something in the parliament?




[Hot] air? Wind?
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:24
When I saw the pic I thought she was about to burst out in tears.
 
 
# clachangowk 2012-02-22 09:36
I am afraid that everyone seems to be underestimating the Westminster pro-Union campaign. They are playing a long-term well thought out strategy.

It is absolutely no accident that the Labs Cons and Libs in Scotland have their present leaders. The thinking and strategy in Westminster is that not only Unionist party supporters but also many SNP supporters would be so terrified of the, even if, remote possibility that after independence any of Davidson, Lamont or Rennie could get near power then staying in the Union is the lesser danger.

This strategy is being played so well in Westminster that the Scottish leaders are completely unaware of it. Davidson is deliberately not being told the party line, Lamont is not being told anything and Willie is left to be Willie

The threat of Lamont, Davidson and Rennie are the Union's most powerful argument - a quite sobering thought
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-02-22 10:09
Dastardly cunning! It has to make you think twice, mind, the thought of Wee Jummy Lamont representing Scotland on the world stage, doesn't it?

But, there is an easy answer to this, Scotland. DON'T VOTE LABOUR EVER AGAIN!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:26
Can you remind me again S.J., exactly who are Labour? :D
 
 
# alexmc8275 2012-02-22 10:20
Yes I believe you may have hit the nail on the head, what other reason would you have this mob of idiots as figureheads for, got to be the deliberate dumbing down of politics in Scotland, perhaps trying to create so much apathy for politics that people can't be bothered to listen to anyone, and just not vote.
 
 
# Jimbo 2012-02-22 09:51
Ruth Davidson is right. Cameron didn't offer more powers - He said he'd consider offering more powers. There's a world of difference.

That's akin to Alex Salmond telling Cameron that if Westminster gave more powers immediately the SNP would consider abandoning campaigning for Scotland's independence. We all know it's not going to happen.
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-22 09:53
I think that is right. Cameron was doing the 79 thing. It was all puff and lies and Ruth has rightly pointed that out to us.

Pretty decent of her really
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:28
The problem is Jim, she never actually said what flavour of jam her "lord and master" was offering to consider selling us.
 
 
# Caledonian Lass 2012-02-22 10:02
No doubt he has considered what extra powers he'd be offering Scotland and the answer is - NONE!

It looks like there isn't much communication between David Cameron and Ruth Davidson but surely she'd heard what he had said when he was up in Edinburgh. Looks like she realises he's no intention of offering anything extra but what a gaffe on TV!

They can't differentiate their bahookeys from their elbows.
 
 
# Zed 2012-02-22 10:01
I know this is slightly off topic, but I just caught up with the Alistair Darling interview with Isobel Fraser on Sunday.

All I can say is if he's one of the contenders to front the No campaign then "Bring it on!" Can't believe how bad he was in that interview..A so called heavy-weight? Someone really is having a laugh!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:31
"IN the BLUE and WHITE corner Alex Salmond.

In the Red White and Blue corner Zebedee, the non stop bouncing idiot!
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-02-22 10:03
Is it just me, or is everyone here missing the fact that David Cameron did not distinguish between the scope of powers which may be delivered through the Scotland Bill and the promise of further powers subject to a 'No' vote in the referendum?

If this is the case, then it is all just smoke and mirrors from the Tory's. They have not promised anything and have not stated their position and until they do, they should be ignored.

...not that anyone listens to them anymore anyway!
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-22 10:52
not that anyone listens to them anymore anyway!

I think it was aimed at and heard loud and clear by the Media because almost as soon as he said it we had all the newsreports and papers trumpeting the lie for him.

Smoke and mirrors indeed.
 
 
# cjk 2012-02-22 10:04
I agree with Jimbo. David Cameron is head of the party ahead of Ruth Davidson because he can lie more easily
 
 
# Siôn Jones 2012-02-22 10:13
Watching Davidson squirm and dissemble like that almost made me feel sorry for her, but then I remembered she is a Tory, and as such, she deserves all the pain and suffering that the demons of hell can inflict on her.

Does that make me a Cybernat?
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 10:26
O/T To my compatriot and part namesake.

Are you coming up to Glasgow? If so, I hope to see you there. I'd write in Welsh, but I don't want to post in a language the moderators and others might not understand.
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 10:13
More friends abroad Scotland should break free of British rule

times247.com/.../...
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-22 10:19
It's a welcome piece, even if peppered with a few inaccuracies.

Cheers!
 
 
# Macart 2012-02-22 10:35
Didn't beat about the bush did it? A little bit off on the facts in one or two areas, but no bad.

Cheers mato
 
 
# iReferee 2012-02-22 11:09
I loved the line:

"it is as natural as the enduring bonds of family and faith. This is why ethno-nationalism is so powerful. It is like trying to suppress the laws of gravity; eventually reality wins."

Has anyone heard of Jeffrey Kuhner before? What is his politics? Why has he and the Washington Times come out so in favour of Scottish independence (not that its a bad thing of course)?
 
 
# igster999 2012-02-22 10:21
Maybe the unionist parties can't agree on what they're saying but apparently the Basques are quite clear...

elmundo.es/.../1329590832.html
 
 
# Mac 2012-02-22 10:25
- YOU CAN'T TRUST THE TORIES -

That is what Scots have learnt and know about the Tories.


- YOU CAN'T TRUST THE BBC -

That is what Scots are now learning about the corporation.


In Ruth Davidson we have both, a Tory and an ex-BBC employee.

As was displayed on BBC Scotland Newsnight she must be one of the most untrustworthy people in Scotland sitting opposite a BBC journalist in Glenn Campbell who has proven to be just as untrustworthy.
 
 
# alexb 2012-02-22 10:26
Nail on the head, Jimbo. And while I take the point of clachangowk,s post, I don,t think any of the Westminster party leaders have the brain power to work out such s strategy, and furthermore I don,t think for one minute that the Scottish electorate would be fooled by such a manoeuvre.
 
 
# Pictavia 2012-02-22 10:45
Food for thought.Could it be that the Britnat establishment want shot of us. First Mickey Moore as Governor General add Waffling Wallace as Advocate General throw in the muppets Statler and Waldorf the Baron "F"s and then crown it all with the Three Stooges regional party leaders Davidson, Rennie, Lamont all for Freedoms Cause.I would add(that's assuming he could be found)our dear Gordon saviour of the World defender of all things "Britishness" and put him in overall charge of the Conlablib Campaign to save the Empire. I give you the "Independence Dream Team"
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 10:49
You can have another dose of Mickey Mouse waffling at 11.30 on the Parliament channel
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-22 11:06
I give you the "Independence Dream Team"

You've been eating cheese before bedtime again haven't you?

;)
 
 
# Pictavia 2012-02-22 11:25
Might have to give the "Seriously Strong" stuff a miss in the evenings, in retrospect the Broon role at the end was a bit fanciful, firstly he couldn't hide from Eck and there would be little chance of removing his "Socialist" snout from the new trough he has found
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:41
Just so long as it was Scottish cheese we can let Pictavia off, can't we? :D
 
 
# Katie Beardie 2012-02-22 10:56
I would tend to agree with Ruth Davidson, in so much as Cameron didn't actually state clearl that further options regarding devolution would be offered if the vote was a NO. To me the words he used "I am open to looking at how....." are very vague and clearly intended to be refuted should the need arise at a later date. So maybe like the rest of us, she has sussed out that he is all mouth and of little substance. Furthermore, let's not forget the Tory tactics in the 1979 Referendum - en.wikipedia.org/.../...
gives a good account.
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 11:19
Hi Katie

I'm with you he offered nothing other than he was" open to looking at" Well we can all be open to looking at situations that's not to say we will, nor that if we do look we are not committed to do anything further

He has learnt well from the school of snake oil salesmen
 
 
# fiona4independance 2012-02-22 11:07
Wake up Ruth Davidson. You know Cameron doesnt mean what he says, there are Westminster tory mp's who support scottish independence because we apparently are a burden on thier tax payers. Scottish tory party is a contradiction in terms.
 
 
# Clarinda 2012-02-22 11:09
OT -
Robert Louis - and perhaps others ..
I'm trying to find somewhere to thank you for posting Mr Salmond's recent LSE lecture and QA session on the economics for Independence. One of the questions, or rather the answer, struck me as our fundamental political strength. Mr Salmond was asked what strategy was the best to use in campaigning - after dismissing the usual negative slanging that seems prevalent (including the US Primaries) Mr Salmond went on to establish the power of positive and informative campaigning in the face of public uncertainty not just for today but significantly for tomorrow. He had just laid out the SNP analysis and projections for economic growth, prosperity and savings in his lecture but at all times seasoned them with the genuine human benefits for those "living and working" within Scotland in particular. It is just this mixture of ease with positive facts and the incorporation of human respect that gains the SNP, in my opinion, the upper hand of integrity and influence that will gradually pervade the thinking of many yet to be totally convinced inside and outside Scotland.

Even in contrast to the dreadful drivel and disorientation of our Scottish (and UK)'opposition' where anyone who might recite a simple nursery rhyme could be regarded as literate, Mr Salmond and the SNP are legitimately outstanding.
 
 
# RTP 2012-02-22 11:12
This reminds me of a certain person called Wendy "bring it on" and then her boss Broon saying at PMQs she did not say that now we have Ruthie saying Cam did not say this,what is it with the unionist mafia,Darling,L amont and Miliband don't know what way to turn what a shambles but they are all trying to keep Scotland in place and its people as second class citizens.
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-22 11:16
Chiefly? Lack of competence
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-22 11:27
O / T

Watch live coverage of Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore and his ministerial team taking questions from MPs from 11.30am on 22 February 2012.

news.bbc.co.uk/.../default.stm

also on the parliament channel live.

prepare to be insulted by the unionists again...
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 11:50
Cannot listen to the weasels any longer So rude when the SNP try to speak but see the Labour cronies are on message with the tories
 
 
# Fourfolksache 2012-02-22 12:00
Usual ignorant crap with most of the chamber talking over speakers!!!
 
 
# Taighnamona 2012-02-22 12:00
You should have included a health warning with the link...I had to switch off to reduce my blood pressure.

God help us all if this is an example of them 'governing' the country. How rude and ill informed...simply an attempt to score points against the SNP and the Scottish people...the so called labour MPs should be ashamed of themselves colluding with tories against the wishes of the Scottish people. Treason ...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:47
I think , by now, jafurn we all, at least on this site, recognise that "Scottish Questions" is just a ploy by the Unionist government to have an "open season" on Scotland. I don't think the scheduling of Scottish Office questions immediately before PMQ's is not "lost" on any one.
 
 
# Teri 2012-02-22 19:49
I heard some of this. Moore's new phrase about the Indpendence referendum, is that the First Minister is trying to separate England from Scotland.
Surely that's for the English to do, if they so wish.
 
 
# From The Suburbs 2012-02-22 11:54
Scottish Questions is the usual SNP bashing by the London Dependency Parties and we must take them to task every time they repeat the lie that SNP has not spelt out any of the independence benefits.... refer them to scotlandforward .net
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:51
Sod that F.T.S. just send them a dictionary with the explanation of INDEPENDENCE clearly highlighted!

In fact we should make sure the dictionary is delivered already open at the relevant page, just in case they are incapable of find the relevant page by themselves.
 
 
# Edna Caine 2012-02-22 22:38
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 22:47
OH YEAH! :D

Like it Edna.:D
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-22 11:59
That is what is known as the RESPECT agenda... a bunch of ------- insert your own I don't want excommunicated
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-02-22 11:59
Poor old Murdo has just had his fox shot by Professor Hughes Hallett when he tried to suggest that Scotland couldn't set lower corporation tax levels due to EU rules.

The good Prof suggested that Scotland could basically do it wanted.

Gas on peep!
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 12:05
Are these people to be considered selfish for not sharing?


forfar-loon.blogspot.com/
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-22 12:06
I see the debate is called the "Referendum on Separation For Scotland". They are so desperate to be negative at every turn one feels sorry for them. They have nothing in the locker - negativity is their one and only card. Too Wee, Too Poor, Too Stupid - they might as well get it tatooed on their foreheads.

PS I should say that the separation word doesn't phase me at all. I think we should re-claim it and set it in its proper context. Separation is single point process to achieve what we are aspiring to..."Independence". People around the world don't celebrate Separation Day.
 
 
# Arraniki 2012-02-22 12:21
O/T That sneaky wee poll in the Arran Banner is still running.

You will see that the positive vote for Road Equivalent Tariff requires a NO response.

Could do with another boost if you have not yet voted.

Link here:

www.arranbanner.co.uk/
 
 
# Hing em high 2012-02-22 12:38
What is or has been the political position of that paper as I am unfamilair with it?
 
 
# Gaavster 2012-02-22 13:26
As an ex-Arranite, I happen to know the editor and would actually say that he was pretty much politically neutral...

On a wee aside, did you know that the Arran Banner, or the Banana as we used to call it, was in the Guinness Book of Records at one point, and may well still be, as having the biggest percentage circulation of any newspaper of its type in the world...

Let me clarify, Arran has a permanent population of circa 5,000 people and the Arran Banner used to sell upwards of 20,000 copies a week

This owed mainly to the Arran diaspora and the many tourists who came to the island every summer, staying in touch with goings on...
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 16:58
Donedid! :D
 
 
# grizzly 2012-02-22 12:26
O.T.
Just found the annimated version of 'MOUSELAND'
by Tommy Douglas on U-Tube - sort of reminds me of some thing.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 17:07
Is this the clip you mean grizzly?

www.youtube.com/.../

I agree it does remind you of some thing, now if I could only remember exactly what it was. Hmmm!.......
 
 
# balgayboy 2012-02-22 12:34
o/t Just been watching "BBC PMQ Live" could not watch it to the end as the whole diatribe was total B.S. and scripted to play to the UK public. I really hope that the people of Scotland can see through this propaganda and realise that the genuine party that put's Scotland and their people first are the SNP. Roll on2014.
 
 
# pmcrek 2012-02-22 12:34
Trust me I'm a Tory politician....
 
 
# clootie 2012-02-22 14:44
I thought David sounded so sincere. He must have been up all night practising the new line - How much he cares for us and our wonderful union.

Anyone who buys that crap really is stupid!
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-02-22 12:36
David of the Cameron clan has just avoided a question on what extra powers the Tories would grant Scotland if we vote No to independence.

Instead he told Angus MacNeil MP that he thought "separatists" weren't interested in more devolution.
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-22 12:48
That makes it pretty clear he was lying when he came up here. Never trust a Tory bearing gifts.
 
 
# macdoc 2012-02-22 12:39
The MSP unionist position is extrmeley bizarre. Its akin to be being in a job where you have little responsibility, are dictated to, bullied with low levels of autonomy and pay. However you are offered a huge promotion to become the head of the company, have zero outside interference, being better paid, having complete autonomy but shrieking back that you don't want this job. You want to stay in the shitty position you are currently in. Its madness of the highest order. It just shows the ambitions and moral backbone of all 3 leader of the NorthBristish-conlabdems trio .

There whole purpose in life is to thwart SNP and keep Scotland under Westminstrs thumbs.
 
 
# balgayboy 2012-02-22 12:45
Quoting macdoc:
The MSP unionist position is extrmeley bizarre. Its akin to be being in a job where you have little responsibility, are dictated to, bullied with low levels of autonomy and pay. However you are offered a huge promotion to become the head of the company, have zero outside interference, being better paid, having complete autonomy but shrieking back that you don't want this job. You want to stay in the shitty position you are currently in. Its madness of the highest order. It just shows the ambitions and moral backbone of all 3 leader of the NorthBristish-conlabdems trio .

There whole purpose in life is to thwart SNP and keep Scotland under Westminstrs thumbs.

No Chance and " Nae Limits"
 
 
# velofello 2012-02-22 12:41
it doesn't matter a whit what they say, ITS ONLY WORDS.
What would count is a signed and counter signed offer on DevoMax from the UK Parliament NOW.

Lamont,Rennie,D avidson,Moore,W allace are irrelevant. They do not have the authority to propose a deal.
Foulkes and Forsyth are having some childish fun with the dead Scotland Bill.
And Cameron? He simply repeated the Dug Alex Hume piece of insincerity for the niave to swallow.
In some distant shore - I cannot recall where in my work travels- there is the expression, when pulling someone's leg, "Trust me, i am an Englishman".
 
 
# Welsh Sion 2012-02-22 13:30
Quoting velofello:
In some distant shore - I cannot recall where in my work travels- there is the expression, when pulling someone's leg, "Trust me, i am an Englishman".



This reminds me of those Barclaycard adverts with Rowan Atkinson.
 
 
# Arthur G 2012-02-22 12:45
My main source of unease centres around what the Westminster reaction will be, once the sense of the game being truly 'a bogey' finally crystalises witin the collective Unionist mind. Without wishing to scaremonger, I cannot see Westminister meekly accepting the loss of such a valuable asset as Scotland; a Scotland, the assets and rsources of which, continues to fuel the all consuming machine in London and the South east.

If and when the attempts to gerrymander the 'negotiations' on the independence resource/debt split fails what will Westminster's reaction be? Tanks in George Square, Glasgow, again? Perhaps gunboats - borrowed from the French?

I do not trust Albion to be any less perfidious than it has, historically, proven to be.
 
 
# Alba4Eva 2012-02-22 13:42
Quoting Arthur G:
If and when the attempts to gerrymander the 'negotiations' on the independence resource/debt split fails what will Westminster's reaction be? Tanks in George Square, Glasgow, again? Perhaps gunboats - borrowed from the French?


Glasgow? They wouldn't dare, we would just send in the 5th Battallion Possil Park Neds Brigade, led under General John Smeaton QGM and there would obviously be specialist reserve back up from the specialist guerilla forces of the ToryGlen Young Team. :o)
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 17:17
Arthur, after we have won the referendum in 2014 the unionist boat is well and truly sunk.

They can not delay, stall , gerrymander or put off in any way full negotiations on how Scotland becomes Independent. Remember. after we win in 2014 the whole world will be watching, particularly the OSCE, Council of Europe and the U.N. to name but a few.

Win in 2014 and Full Independence will arrive in fairly short order. If it does not then Wastemonster will have HELL to pay coming in from all quarters.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-02-22 13:54
O/T, upside, but have you seen this note about Centrica?

cityam.com/.../...

Who does that field belong to? And:

guardian.co.uk/.../...

Also downside, a gruesome article about privatising a police station in England - this is how the English choose to save money, while the Scots choose to unify service management instead:

guardian.co.uk/.../...

Including "purpose-built 'Bridewell' custody suites" - shudder!

Looks like we've got the money to get out, let's do it while we can!
 
 
# clootie 2012-02-22 14:52
I wonder why the Guardian used a picture of the Shell Brent field which is being decommissioned at the moment?

Oil company Duty Holder/Operators do not own the field it is licensed by the them. This will switch from the UK to Scotland.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 17:22
Quote:
Also downside, a gruesome article about privatising a police station in England - this is how the English choose to save money, while the Scots choose to unify service management instead:



I wonder if the police station is going to be built under PFI? :D
 
 
# pictic-1 2012-02-22 13:59
This whole non-debate about more devolved powers or no devolved powers is quite frankly weird.

The SNP / AS has put a lovely big picture of a steak-pie on the table and said, “We want to be independent and have the powers and the means to buy everyone in Scotland a meat-pie”.

Ruthie the con says no to anything more, “you’ll get a bag a’ smarties from the Scotland bill, I’ve drawn my line”, (And while they’re at it they want their penguins back.)

“Say no to independence and just maybe we’ll give you something, but, I’m nae telling you what it is”, said Cameron on the occasion of his visit to the northern porridge plantations.

Alistair “the parrot” Darling refuses to answer questions about what he, Lamont’s big brother, would put on the table. “Are we staying in the UK or are we leaving”. Before that’s answered you can starve.

This is the “British” political establishment ……………….!!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 17:27
Ruthie the con says no to anything more, “you’ll get a bag a’ smarties from the Scotland bill, I’ve drawn my line”, (And while they’re at it they want their penguins back.)


pictic, perhaps A.S. should do the same as he has done with the pandas.

If you have watched the LSE lecture he gave last week you will hear, in the lecture, that despite Wastemonster threatening to remove the pandas if we vote for Independence he has offered the Pandas political asylum. Maybe we should offer the penguins political asylum too.:D

If you missed the lecture here it is.

richmedia.lse.ac.uk/.../...
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 14:01
A wee bit of honesty at last from a labour councillor Should be applauded (the honesty that is)


www.paisleyindependent.org/.../
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-22 14:09
Quoting mato21:
A wee bit of honesty at last from a labour councillor Should be applauded (the honesty that is)


www.paisleyindependent.org/.../


[At a meeting of Renfrewshire Council (13th February 2012), Labour’s spokesperson Councillor Neil Bibby MSP admitted that Labour had no plans to tackle youth unemployment and that “all we can offer is warm words”.


Councillor Kenny MacLaren (SNP – Paisley North West) stated that this was a devastating comment by Cllr Bibby and highlighted Labour’s failure to come forward with a positive agenda to tackle the scourge of youth unemployment in Renfrewshire.



Cllr Kenny MacLaren said:



“This debate was on a motion put forward by Labour, even though their spokesperson admits they have nothing to offer but warm words – a devastating critique on their inability to take this issue seriously and highlights that their motion was only cheap politics.]



With the council elections looming this is the kind of information the public need in order to make up their minds to vote for the SNP
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 17:28
Oops, yet another, soon to be, ex Labour councillor methinks. :D
 
 
# Big Eye 2012-02-22 14:23
It is a measure of the state of Scotland under Westminster that those who wish to give Scotland an international voice and full participation in all international bodies are described as separatists by The Westminster parties and many in the foreign owned MSM while the very same people moan and grin about the EU interfering in their affairs.

It is not normal to let another country make all your decisions and take all your wealth. What more do you need to know to support independence?
 
 
# Auldsanny 2012-02-22 14:26
Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-22 09:55:
In Reply to Steve C: -
This article on the HoC debate is priceless! It should be included in every handout to the Scottish Electorate. It needs to be pointed out that in addition to the £17billion on operating costs the government also accrued a further £40 billion.
The total of £57 billion amounts over £10,000 for every man, woman and child in Scotland PER YEAR!!, but of course we are too poor to look after ourselves?
In addition to the Oil and Gas we also have Water and there is a drought in England! On Electricity we have enough power in the sea currents of the North of Scotland that could generate more green Electricity than is required to supply the whole of the UK. Another great earner! In addition we have many other resources that are being suppressed by the Westminster Government – regardless of creed or political colour.
Just before the referendum, the SNP needs to produce a provisional budget of how Scotland would funded in the event of a successful YES vote.
• An NHS Service that is not privatised.
• All treatment free at the point of issue
• Reasonable care of the elderly.
• Free education – to Scots – from infancy to completion of University
These are important items but are only a start.
 
 
# Stevie Cosmic 2012-02-22 14:54
Howdy Auldsanny

If and when the SNP do provide a provisional budget (and I'm pretty confident that'll happen at some point in the proceedings), it won't look at all good for Westminster. Even at this early stage, despite decades of shameless obfuscation, they are forced to concede that Scotland can look after herself....and that's even before the full figures have been disclosed.
 
 
# Mac 2012-02-22 14:29
Michael Moore was pressed at Westminster about David Cameron's promise of new powers. He couldn't or wouldn't give an answer.

So we can be left in no doubt that another Tory Prime Minister has deliberately lied to Scots about devolution.

The Tories - The Lib Dems - Labour cannot be trusted on devolution. This is a project, their project, that they fundamentally don't support.

This is something that everyone should know;

Home Rule is not safe in Westminster's hands.
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-22 14:44
According to Ian Davidson, cybernats are nutters
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 17:39
I have posted before, and I'll post here again.

The unionists use terms like separatists and cybernats as derogatory terms to be used against us.

Well why don't we all turn the heat up on the unionists. Let's take these "derogatory" terms and use them to our advantage.

Let's all start wearing badges with the phrases on them.

How about these for starters.

Proud to be a Nationalist
Proud to be a Separatist
Proud to be a Cybernat
Proud to be a Patriot

Once the unionists see that we have adopted these phrases and wear them with pride they will be left running around like headless chickens,again!

The more they try to pour apparent "negative" names onto us the more we should look at adopting that name.:D

The old adage "sticks and stones........"
was never so true than it is in this "fight for our lives!"
 
 
# Macallan 2012-02-22 15:21
Mac

The only conclusion you can draw from his performance in Wastemonster today is that Michael Moore is a hypocrit of the 1st order.

On the one hand he bangs on and on and on and on about the SNP not answering questions about what independence would mean - wilfully ignoring the fact that these questions have all long since been answered - either he cant be bothered to look up the answers or he doesnt like them. ON the other hand he refuses to answer questions about what the UK governments plans are despite the fact it was them that introduced the subject of more powers for Holyrood in the event of a No vote ( unlikely I know the way these guys are carrying on)in the referendum.

It seems like they are just making up policy on the hoof and they dont know what to do if someone asks them an obvious question . You just need to look at Ruthy on Newsnight on Monday to see an example. Its quite amusing actually - watching them squirm.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-22 14:57
As mentioned previously and everyone must bear it in mind. Any power can be transfered tomorrow with the agreement of both governments. Without need for referendum or legislation. The fact it isn't is all you need to keep in mind.
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 17:57
They can be taken back just as easily
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-22 15:00
Also remember the Scotland Bill is removing powers and responsibilitie s. It is also putting in place a framework for Westminster to legislate openly on reserved matters and get involved with devolved government.

They are hinting at new powers with one hand while taking them away with the other. This also shows any power given today can be removed tomorrow.
 
 
# Jim1320 2012-02-22 15:07
I am right in thinking that the Scotland Bill has to come back to Holyrood before it can go forward am I not? (99% sure of this but having a moment of doubt)

Obviously even this would have been a worry when the SNP were a minority but the SNP winning a majority clearly wasn't in the Calman script for this little game.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-22 15:21
My main point is if you are genuine about considering more powers. At the same time as saying it you wouldn't be pushing legislation through taking powers away.

The Bill does come back to the Scottish Parliament where the Parliament votes on it. Then Westminster decides whether it sticks to the verbal agreement not to force legislation on the Scottish Parliament. They wouldn't do that! Oh no what about the referendum!
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-02-22 15:22
The Lard who was then just plain Mr Forsyth pointed out in 1997 that a Scottish Parliament only needed to pass a bill seeking independence and the 'gemme's a bogey fir Westminster' - the people being sovereign and aa.

The SNP are ca'in canny but somewhere in their armoury will be a draft independence bill sitting like a nuclear tipped Trident missile to counter act any daft notions Westminster may have over the now ridiculed and flawed Scotland Act Ammendment Bill being imposed on Holyrood.
 
 
# Dowanhill 2012-02-22 15:25
Good Point, you never hear any Pro -Unionist Lord, MP or MSP highlighting what devolved powers will be removed.

Quoting Islegard:
Also remember the Scotland Bill is removing powers and responsibilitie s. It is also putting in place a framework for Westminster to legislate openly on reserved matters and get involved with devolved government.

They are hinting at new powers with one hand while taking them away with the other. This also shows any power given today can be removed tomorrow.


It would be interesting to fully itemise these powers that are intending to be removed and their implications. It would certainly be a good topic for discussion as No doubt the BBC will have strict protocols in place to ensure Airguns and Speeding are the only items to be put out for public information.
 
 
# Islegard 2012-02-22 17:40
I once posted a rough outline of some of the issues regarding the Scotland Bill. It's now out of date as their are even more powes and competencies being returned thanks to numerous amendments. I've lost track of them! Here is part of what I previously posted way back:-

The Scotland Bill

The worst and largest part of the Scotland Bill is in the precedent it will set in returning powers. Under the democratic referendum the Scottish people held to create the Scottish Parliament. The voted for the powers we have at the moment to be devolved. The also democratically voted on the idea of powers being devolved not powers being returned. Devolution was always supposed to be a one way process.

The unionists most notably Labour are disregarding and flouting the results of the only democratic referendum held on devolution of powers. They have no mandate to do so and do it is against a democratic referendum.

The worst part is if they succeed the will set a precedent. Devolution was always perceived to be a one way process. If they are allowed to begin reversing devolution they will have set the precedent that any powers, any part of devolution can be reversed at any time. No part of devolution will be safe.

Some of the Powers and Responsibilitie s Being Returned

The end of Scots Law. The Bill wants to make the Supreme Court Scotland’s highest law maker. It will also have the ability to suspend bills passed by the Scottish Parliament.

Control of Insolvency (debt) London want Scotland control and legislative abilities handed to London again there will only be British legislation again this impacts on Scots Law being separate.

Control of charities Scotland will no longer have "Scottish" charities all charities will come under London there will only be British charities. In future if you give money to a charity it will be a “British” charity who will decide how much if any it chooses to give to Scotland (remember the £184 million Scot’s charity money redirected to the London Olympics).

Control over regulating Health Professions London wants this back even though Health is devolved they want to control regulation of our Health professions.

A return of drugs legislation.

London wants control over gambling legislation too.

There is also a lot being said of breaking down the separateness of the Scottish Parliament and Westminster.

There are procedural changes which wreck devolution. "The UK Parliament should end its self-denying ordinance of not debating devolved matters as they affect Scotland, and the House of Commons should establish a regular “state of Scotland” debate. Meaning Westminster can now debate devolved matters and increase LCM usage London legislating on devolved matters.

"A standing joint liaison committee of the UK Parliament
and Scottish Parliament should be established to oversee relations and to consider
the establishment of subject-specific ad hoc joint committees." Again Westminster wants to be involved and interfere in devolved matters.

"Committees of the UK and Scottish Parliaments should
be able to work together and any barriers to this should be removed" and "Any barriers to committees in either Parliament being able to share
information, or hold joint evidence sessions, on areas of mutual interest,
should be removed."

Barriers being removed means making there no division of powers more power sharing again interference. There is a lot of mention of removing barriers and working closely with Westminster on devolved issues. Interference and control.

These are only some of the issues and legislation being passed back there is more. More powers are going than we are getting! This is tantamount to an attack on devolution itself. Don't be fooled by a gradual increase of powers we are seeing a massive reversal of powers.

What do we gain?

Control of speed limits
Control of air guns
Control of drink driving
Tax powers.

The first 3 have now been altered so drastically by the Lords that they are no longer being devolved. The Scottish Parliament will be allowed some legislation on these issues only with consent from Westminster and police forces in England and after consultations. The “tax powers” the Scotland Bill would introduce are unworkable and unusable. They are only being introduced to give the impression greater powers on tax have been devolved.
 
 
# xyz 2012-02-22 18:40
Keep up the good work Islegard! .. Everyone must read this an spread the word .. it's a parcel of rogues all over again.

The referendum is Scotland's last chance of prosperity and self determination
 
 
# Old Smokey 2012-02-22 15:21
Just watching the Scottish Affairs committee
news.bbc.co.uk/.../8167511.stm

Ive never come accross a bigger bunch of muppets in all my life
Their raison d'etre is just to keep Scotland down by any means, nothing possitive
Apparently Michael Moore, when asked to what would happen to the Scottish Regiments, he satted he didnt know!
Think the clue is in the term SCOTTISH
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 17:50
Oh, don't you mean "North British" O.S.

Wastemonster don't "do" Scottish in any way shape or form. :D
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-22 20:05
Davidson made a remark about the committee not wanting to appear one sided, if I heard correctly.

I am afraid it is too late for that.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 15:31
Sorry about being O/T here, sort of. I haven't read the article yet but I'll get back to it after this post.

This is a beaut, as the Aussies might say.

bbc.co.uk/.../...

Will some one please, please, please give Moore a dictionary.

Hell, just to make sure he doesn't miss a thing please make sure the dictionary is presented to him open at the page where the word INDEPENDENCE is explained. He is obviously having great difficulty find the word Independence on his own.
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 15:49
S Korea to build 4 new tankers No steel will be used from Lanarkshire I presume
 
 
# Jiggsbro 2012-02-22 15:55
Johann Lamont will be demanding to know why they're not being built in Stirling.
 
 
# ScotInNotts 2012-02-22 16:02
O/TI assume everyone has read the Beebs article on Moore and the 'cheek' comment. More interestingly on demcoracy live, under the Scottish questions section is this piece of text:

"Scottish Secretary Michael Moore has accused the Scottish National Party (SNP) of "cheek" over the issue of independence for Scotland.

During questions on 22 February 2012, Mr Moore said it was "incredible" that the Scottish government had failed to set out "the fundamentals" of what independence would entail.

He was responding to a question from the SNP's Stuart Hosie, who brought up the recent meeting between Mr Moore, the prime minister, and Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond.

Mr Hosie claimed that the prime minister had "failed to spell out" what his offer of so-called "enhanced devolution" would mean.

"Can you tell us what you envisage a package of devolved financial powers might look like - would it include corporation tax, income tax, aggregates levy?" he asked.

But Mr Moore told MPs that it was the SNP who had failed to tell the public what its vision for independence would look like.

"You would think after decades of having this as their main reason for existence they might have some clear ideas on it," the Scottish secretary said.

Mr Hosie accused Mr Moore of failing to answer his question, claiming it was because the government had "no detail" about its proposals.

Mr Moore replied: "Honestly, it's a cheek to talk about a lack of detail when they cannot spell out what the currency situation would be, what the national debt might look like, how they would deal with pensions or financial regulation."

Later in the session, Mr Moore confirmed the government was seeking to "tidy up" its role and powers over British territories in Antarctica, after it emerged that powers were passed to Scotland in 1998.

Conservative MP Amber Rudd suggested the last government "forgot" to resolve the issue when it devolved powers to the Scottish Parliament in the Scotland Act 1998.

Mr Moore told MPs the Scotland Bill would pass new powers and clarify the existing settlement. The Scottish government has previously agreed the UK government can retain control over the icecap territories."

The last sentence is news to me, can anyone confirm that this is the case, as any articles I can find on the matter say no such thing?
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-22 16:11
He's now on the radio saying 2013 for the referendum vote . No need to wait!
 
 
# iReferee 2012-02-22 16:30
Part of me says call their bluff and hold the referendum in 6 months time. I honestly now think we could win it no matter when it is held.
 
 
# ScotInNotts 2012-02-22 16:34
67 years and counting of post war propaganda and media mythology need to be debunked, surely if it is such an important decision as Moore keeps protesting you'd want to get all the facts straight, rather than 'fools rush in'; unless of course they don't want a proper debate on the matter?
 
 
# iReferee 2012-02-22 16:37
I know, and I am sure the Scottish Government is right to wait till 2014. I just can't wait...I want it now and I think the dependence parties have such a hollow argument that they will be easily beaten.
 
 
# ScotInNotts 2012-02-22 16:44
Problem is that we have to convince a public at large that may not be particularly interested in politics in any detail to make a massive change. It is always more difficult to argue for a change, people feel safe with what they know. As the debate moves on the old scare stories are losing their power, that doesn't stop the unionists from playing on more of the publics fears, baseless or not.

Frankly I'd like all the time we can get so that they have exhausted most if not all fo the straw man arguements they can think of. Then again, for those wanting cast-iron, sure thing guarantees for post independence life there will never be a right time; yet we have to find some way to convince them to take that opportunity for all our sakes.
 
 
# EdinScot 2012-02-22 16:05
So according to Ruth, there will be no more powers on offer to Scotland. Looks like she is inferring her Britnat Tory leader is being economical with the truth. Well well, looks like all that porridge eating for the ungrateful sweaty jocks was all for nothing. Allegedly Dave boy wont be back up again anytime soon according to media sources, and there was me thinking his visit was a raging success :). Btw, love the pic of ruthless.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-22 16:29
Aye ! It might be the moment on the politics show that Sunday when she didnae read the papers and 'Call me Dave' had spoken before consulting her.
----------------------------------------
Caption: "The ba@@rd said what !"
---------------------------------------
 
 
# EdinScot 2012-02-22 16:48
What a cracking relationship they have, master & servant = puppet & puppet master or maybe thats just too generous, its sheer comedy though cmd :).
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-02-22 16:07
O/T MOORE sets his dream date on Indy.

totalpolitics.com/.../...

Michael(LibDem) have you told Johann Lamont(Labour)?She might like to know.
 
 
# Training Day 2012-02-22 16:25
The time must rapidly be approaching when Moore and his ilk are told point blank in no uncertain terms that they will not be running the referendum and will have no influence on the process and conduct of it whatsoever. This is just becoming pathetically tedious.
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 16:16
Scott

I think Tony in his wisdom claimed the air space but forgot about the land mass thereby by default the portion of Antarctica claimed by the UK came under the remit of Scotland
 
 
# ScotInNotts 2012-02-22 16:29
Thanks mato21. I had understood that. My concern was that the BBC has a statement claiming that "The Scottish government has previously agreed the UK government can retain control over the icecap territories". Any article I have read has not made any mention of this and I cannot find anything to confirm the BBC's statement. I had been under the impression that the Scottish government would resist re-reservation of any powers already devolved to the extent that they would veto the Scotland Bill if they had to. Another article suggests that a quid pro quo with redress to the redrawing of Scotland's territorial waters thanks to Henry McLeish's ammendment may be in the offing; difficult then to see how that squares if they have already agreed that Westmisnter should retain control.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 18:15
Perhaps the "The Scottish government has previously agreed the UK government can retain control over the icecap territories" statement refers to one of the pre SNP government coalitions.S.I.N.

This may have been agreed between one of the Labour/Lib/Dem coalition associations and Blair's government as way of Scotland "reclaiming" the Territorial waters previously "gifted" to Wastemonster by them.
 
 
# RTP 2012-02-22 16:25
O/T
South Korea wins Royal Navy tanker deal over UK bidders.

The Royal Navy has chosen South Korean firm Daewoo for a £452m deal to build four new fuel tankers.

This is even before Scotland has its Independence
 
 
# ScotInNotts 2012-02-22 16:32
According to the Beeb UK firms tendered but made no final bid. I would dearly like to know why.
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-22 16:44
I thought the Unionist line on this was to the effect that rUK would not award defence contracts to Scotland after Independence because it would be a 'foreign' country. Admiral Lord West being one of the people who push this argument.

So remember this contract the next time that pr-Union argument is raised.
 
 
# ScotInNotts 2012-02-22 16:56
Problem is, independence or not, that ship building in the UK is simply not able to compete with other nations. 'Grey' ships are the only thing keeping the current yards open, and the UK's order book has and will continue to decrease. The yards have not had a sure footing since the 60's and do not look likely ever to have one again. BAE as a multinational defence contractor would likely reduce its personnel and close one or two of its remaining 4 yards, keeping Barrow for sub building and perhaps one of the Clyde yards would be my guess.

Quite frankly, where are the external orders been/coming from; Bahrain and prior to that we only recently offloaded the two ships that the original buyers pulled out from at a knock down price!
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-22 18:23
In 2009 the EC published a report into shipbuilding competitiveness in Europe.

It has some interesting points to make.

ec.europa.eu/.../... _en.pdf
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-22 19:57
But the MOD, which is strapped for cash, did say they would buy from the cheapest bidder.

Scotland has nothing to stay in the union for as far as shipbuilding contracts are concerned.
 
 
# m4rkyboy 2012-02-22 16:32
Off-topic.
bloomberg.com/.../...
'Gamesa’s decision will be made on purely commercial criteria'
Without a fully-functioning parliament are we at a disadvantage against Westminster in creating a desirable enviroment that will attract this investment?
 
 
# ScotInNotts 2012-02-22 16:39
You mean like the infamous 'enterprise zones' which are able to have lower coproation taxes than elsewhere; much like the power Holyrood has asked for Scotland as a whole similarly to NI's request. Gamesa has already invested in Scotland and I would feel confident that they would recognise which of the two competing cities had the greater economic prospects.
 
 
# Mac 2012-02-22 16:40
At PMQs


Quote:
Angus MacNeil: Last week in Edinburgh the Prime Minister said there were more powers on the table for Scotland but couldn’t name any. A few months ago he mocked the idea of Scotland controlling its own oil wealth. In the Scotland Bill, even the Crown Estate was too big. Can the Prime Minister now name one power that he has on his mind from his latest u-turn.


David Cameron: I didn’t think that the SNP favoured devolution. I thought that they favoured separation, yet as soon as you're offered a referendum that gives you a chance to put that in front of the Scottish people they start running away.


Oh dear, oh dear, David Cameron comes up short.

Is this another Tory Prime Minister caught out lying to Scots?

It would appear so!
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-22 17:37
Brian Taylor has suddenly started toi blether again after a long silence.

And the catalyst for this awakening - none other than Mr Murdoch's apparent approval for Independence.

Passin strange after all the political events of the past few weeks that that single tweet awakened an urge to blog in the BBC Scotlands political commentator.

Overall he feels that the Unionist strategy is beginning to take shap and that shape is 'No, but...'

As to Ms Davidson and Mr Cameron's position re more powers, from something I read yesterday it would appear that Mr Cameron is moving closer to Ms Davidson's position i.e. the Scotland Bill devolves more powers so just need tweaked - I have paraphrased here.

BwB is hewre:
bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# DonaldMhor 2012-02-22 16:43
I am absolutely bloody furious after watching the BBC Politics Scotland slot this afternoon. We had three MPs interviewed from Westminster, Willie Bain and English MP, and Angus McNeil. Quite why we had an English MP on there was not evident.

However what has enraged me is the bare faced lies of Willie Bain (Labour)who yet again pops up and tells the world that Scotland is being damaged by the prospect of an independence referendum in that companies are not investing here. This is the 3rd time I have heard this odious little man deliberately lying on national TV and getting away with it. It is no more than a malicious attempt at causing damage to Scotland. This is the kind of wickedness and propaganda that the anti Scotland parties are now getting away with on national media.

It is exactly the same malicious treacherous behaviour we have seen from the utterly contemptible Iain Macmillan of CBI Scotland, who was exposed lying that his members were concerned that this coming referendum was causing concern amongst them he later had to backtrack from that position as his members had not.

tiny.cc/r5fe2

Why oh why will SNP MPs when they are on the national airwaves not nail these liars? Angus McNeil had a wide open goal with Bain and failed utterly to hold him to account. He should have publicly called him a liar and forced him to either provide the evidence or withdraw his treacherous propaganda. It really is time for the SNP to stick the boot in to these liars. As it is Bain and Macmillan’s lies and propaganda that will do the damage if it is not stopped. These people would sooner see Scotland in eternal penury than independent. What a disgrace.
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-02-22 16:58
I agree. McNeil should have gone for Bain's throat.
 
 
# Harry.Shanks 2012-02-22 17:18
I suspect Willie Bain would rather see his constituents kept in eternal penury so as to guarantee his position.

What have these Labour MPs who represent "deprived" constituences ever done to improve matters in their fiefdoms? - and I include Saint Donald Dewar
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-22 19:54
...and another Labour man in the studio. Alf Young. I thought the BBC Trust was going to sort them out.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 20:02
It is. The Trust is getting all the Labourites it can find and putting them in one place.......the EBC! :D
 
 
# Legerwood 2012-02-22 16:47
O/T but I thought I should mention it.
The Stirling Observer was published today and much of its front page was taken up with a very full report of the budget shenanigans in the local council and the fact that Labour voted against its own ammendment. The editorial in the paer did not spare labour's blushes either.
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-02-22 17:00
DonaldMhor.Totally agree.
"These people would sooner see Scotland in eternal penury than independent. What a disgrace."

They have no shame.Scotland leads the worst rankings for just about everything in Europe,and Labour was in power for sooooo many years.
They did a little bit of this and a wee bit of that. FULL STOP.
Only independence will stop and REVERSE the rot.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-02-22 17:00
O/T... After signing myself up to yougov a year ago, was finally asked to complete an online survey today on all things scottish; referendum, SE and GE intentions, thoughts on devo max etc...

Yougov are generally poor in terms of accuracy (odd weighting methods) and not a real poll (panel survey) but I'll be interested in the detailed results when they come out.
 
 
# RTP 2012-02-22 17:22
South Korea wins Royal Navy tanker deal over UK bidders.

I forgot to say maybe the Korea company might ask Lamont and Baker if they could source the steel for them!!!
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 17:48
Alex Massie in the Spectator is not impressed with call me Daves non answer at PMQs either

spectator.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# Leswil 2012-02-22 17:55
Today I watched the political programs.
ie Prime Ministers Question time, however was treated to 10 min of "Scottish Question Time" before the start of P/M. Full of Unionist crap.
Then P.Mq, when the SNP member spoke he was treated by disdain by the crowd AND by the PM.
THEN after that, we had the FULL Version of "Scottish Questions" all in a heavy dose for any thinking Scot.
Also the BBC interview with Ruthie last night - on a one to one basis. So no challenge there then!
Then Politics Scotland again today, where we had to listen to M.Moore again, along with Mundell and others INC Ian ( ye will get a do-in ) Davidson, in charge of the "Defence Inquiry, along with snide remarks all round against the SNP.
No doubt there will be more of this stuff in Newsnight Scotland.

Just how biased can the BBC be allowed to be????????????????
 
 
# Embra 2012-02-22 17:57
This woman is embarrassing to watch and cannot communicate.

She's is not fit to be an MSP never mind leading a party.

Shows how far the Unionist parties have had to lower the bar.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-22 18:21
What this demonstrates if nothing else is that there are no clear messages coming from the Tories, whether its Cameron or Davidson. If the pubic or even the pundits don't know where they are coming from, they are on hiding to nothing.

It looks like Cameron has hung her out to dry with his comment and she is back peddling like mad to gain some credibility for herself.

She obviously took the intiative and said some things that were not official policy when she talked about lines in the sand.
 
 
# scotsgal 2012-02-22 18:26
Just watched the half hour that Scottish issues get in Westminster, I can't understand how a libdem politician can represent Scottish issues when they have hardly any seats up here. Found the whole thing a joke hardly any of the questions were answered and the answers that were given were rather elusive. Why cant these people give straight answers? I suppose honesty is not in their DNA.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 18:37
O/T but this is very important, I think.

The National Front are planning to hold an anti-SNP rally in Aberdeen on April 20. They have applied to Aberdeen council to hold the march on April 20th, a date not lost on historians, Hitler's birthday.

I hope that every one in Aberdeen will protest their abhorance to the possibility of this march taking place.

Here's a link to the story on STV.

local.stv.tv/.../...
 
 
# D_A_N 2012-02-22 20:12
Let them have their say. Freedom of speech and all that. Even if it is a hate speech. Don't force it underground. If I'm around Aberdeen at the time I'd be happy to laugh at them as I'm sure many will. There will probably be about 12 nutters there tbh and cud be good for the independence movement in a way. Because this kind of nonsense is often associated with the union.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-23 00:41
I totally agree with you ..just let them march. Nodiscussion ,no protest, no complaint,no publicity and see how popular they are.
Unfortunately the press will be there 'trying to make a story' and reporting on something that deserves the same amount of publicity as a stag night getting a bit out of hand.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-23 00:57
What I worry about jafurn, is the violence that regularly follows the N.F. wherever they go. I believe that Aberdeen and its people deserve better.

However, I do accept both your and D_A_N's comments, we are still a free country and still observe the right to free speech no matter how abhorrent that "free speech" might be.
 
 
# jafurn 2012-02-23 02:43
Arbroath1320
That is my point 'the violence that regularly follows the N.F '
what I am suggesting is we allow them to march , meet. hold a rally ..whatever ...but if you refuse to give them the oxygen of publicity then they ....well you know what will happen to them.
They will moan and groan and complain about not having a say and before you know it you will be in a position of denying them the rights which you would say you will for everyone else defend to the death
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-22 19:15
Sometime today in Frowning Street

"Well I've done it prime Minister" "Felt so good after I took the piss out of the SNP chappie at Scottish Questions in the house that I said the referendum will be 2013."

" Thrown down the gauntlet as it were, just like you said we should last week when we were eating that horrid porridge stuff"


"Really Michael"! "Well that's fine, we can't have Murdoch carping at us for two years can we and we need to draw a line in the sand with fat Eck"

"Err. .Michael, before you go, just one thing?"


"Yes. . . Prime Minister"?


"Do you have a plan"?



"Err. . Different Jam .Prime Minister"!
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 19:21
L.O.L. :D
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 19:26
Oops!

Looks like we "Nats" are not the only one's unhappy with the EBC bias.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17119720
 
 
# mato21 2012-02-22 19:50
Their reply looks familiar, I'm sure I've seen it before accurate and impartial No change there then
 
 
# Teri 2012-02-22 19:35
Maybe, our Ruthie is just being totally honest in that she knows as well as we do that no new powers will be forthcoming after the referendum if the majority vote No. Alternatively she suffers from that fatal Unionist disease, selective amnesia.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 19:41
O/T but politically important.

After all the continual "moving the goal posts" shenanigans currently going on in Brussels we now have this.

euronews.net/.../...

Is it not enough that the Greeks are having severe problems and just "appear" to be continually c****d on from a great height by the E.U., Italy is having financial problems as is Spain and Portugal but we now "apparently have Hungary about to join the "happy" family.

Just in case every one gets into a panic, it would appear that the F.B.I. is considering shutting down the Internet for a day.

Quote:
Millions of computer users across the world could be blocked off from the Internet as early as March 8 if the FBI follows through with plans to yank a series of servers originally installed to combat corruption.



rt.com/.../...


You have been warned!
 
 
# Drew1314 2012-02-22 19:48
O/T Still the Tory theme

Sophy Ridge a Sky News political correspondent just tweeted:

“Sophy Ridge@SophyRidg eSky
Overheard in Westminster, Peter Luff on South Korea firm winning Navy deal: "It's ok - we've got away with it. It's only on the BBC website"“

Peter Luff - Tory MP and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Ministry of Defence 2010-


So now it's on Newsnet Pete :)
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 20:22
That's all right Drew, Mr. Luff doesn't read Newsnet so that doesn't count. :D
 
 
# Soloman 2012-02-22 21:28
I've noticed that all Unionist saviours are loving to use the word "Separatist" to condition people into thinking that something bad is going to happen, perhaps now would be a good time for all Indepndently minded people to substitute Independence with a separatist slant to the vocabulary, thus neutralising the word. If politicians in the yes camp start using the word separatists on tv and radio then the the Unionists won't like it (In my opinion)
 
 
# Taysider 2012-02-22 22:14
I hope someone asks Cameron at PMQs how he is going to help the Americans celebrate Separation Day on 4 July.
 
 
# Arbroath1320 2012-02-22 22:17
Soloman, I've been thinking similar thoughts as well. In fact I posted some suggestions on this thread earlier today.

Quote:
Well why don't we all turn the heat up on the unionists. Let's take these "derogatory" terms and use them to our advantage. Let's all start wearing badges with the phrases on them. How about these for starters.
Proud to be a Nationalist
Proud to be a Separatist
Proud to be a Cybernat
Proud to be a Patriot



I think once the unionists start seeing these button badges all over the place I think they are going to have real hard problems trying to find any other "derogatory" remarks to say against the patriots that are all fighting for FREEDOM!

I don't think using their pathetic attempts at derogation will send a clear message to the unionists that we independentista s are proud of these names!
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-23 00:19
I posted the suggestion two days ago and was immediately slapped down. Glad to see it registered with some.
 
 
# Hamish100 2012-02-22 22:25
Quoting Soloman:
I've noticed that all Unionist saviours are loving to use the word "Separatist" to condition people into thinking that something bad is going to happen, perhaps now would be a good time for all Indepndently minded people to substitute Independence with a separatist slant to the vocabulary, thus neutralising the word. If politicians in the yes camp start using the word separatists on tv and radio then the the Unionists won't like it (In my opinion)

colonialist's, dictatorial, feudal etc---As a patriot we should repeat the term Independence as often as possible-most people understand the term and by referring to ourselves as patriots is a positive.
 
 
# fifestevie 2012-02-22 21:42
Has no one picked up on the fact that Scottish council Elections are due soon and all this devo separation independence talk from the Tory and Labour party`s is only a smokescreen to avoid being embarrassed by questions they can`t or will not answer about local issues .in truth they know they could be in for another kicking as they are all in disarray, when the real debate on Independence takes place the myths and scaremongering will be blown away with the truth .Scotland will be Free.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-02-22 22:03
Hear! hear!
 
 
# Soloman 2012-02-22 22:20
Splendid Idea @ Taysider....
 
 
# pictic-1 2012-02-22 22:48
Fifestevie is absolutely right.

I've said it before - stop diluting you're attack on the unionists by harping on about the general picture leading up to the referendum.

I know, I know, I know we're all fevering for the moment when Westminster gets the boot and we can go it alone. BUT it's two years away ...!

However, the council elections are 2 MONTHS away, This is the only real chance we have in the next two years of setting in concrete the will of the SNP / Scottish people. Failure to get enough seats and the huge marketing potential that comes with it will make it harder to get the message through later. Think of your strategy. Use your heads and follow your hearts.

The EBC, Scotsman, etc won't help you so you have to tap other sources.
 
 
# J Wil 2012-02-23 00:05
You just have to listen to Scottish Questions from yesterday to realise that the Unionists are trying to make capital out of the word 'separatist' at every turn. Those who want independence are also entitled to use the word to cut the feet from under the unionists. There have have been so many unforgiveable things that Westminster has done, and everyone will recognize them. To say that we want separation from such behaviour puts Scotland on the moral high ground.
 
 
# Caledonian Lass 2012-02-23 00:35
I feel a poem coming on.

(With apologies to Robert Burns whose poetry I admire immensely).

To the tune of "Scots wha hae":-

Scots by Union lies misled.
Unionists a' share same bed.
We've seen through the lies we're fed.
Let's choose victory.

Soon we'll see oor finest hour.
Unionists maun girn and glower.
See result of voters' power -
Scotland shall be free.
 

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