Tuesday, 19 June 2012 20:32
21 Comments
By Andrew Barr 
Two thirds of Scottish members from Britain’s biggest trade union have voted in favour of including a devolution max option in the 2014 independence referendum.
62 per cent of members replied “yes” when asked if they wanted the option to appear. Those over the age of 65 were most strongly against the proposal, and women were slightly more in favour than men.
The poll puts considerable distance between Unite Scotland and the Labour party in Scotland, whose leader Johann Lamont has already ruled out support for devo-max. Ms Lamont had insisted that devo-max was a form of independence and therefore was not a viable option.
SNP MSP Linda Fabiani said that Labour was now “out of touch” with Unite Scotland, which had backed Johann Lamont during her leadership campaign.
She said: “This poll is a huge blow to the anti-independence campaign and shows how out of touch Johann Lamont has become with her core support.
“Ms Lamont herself was backed by Unite in her leadership contest, while a quarter of her MSP colleagues are members of the union.
“There is a real debate to be had about bringing proper job-creating powers to the Scottish Parliament - but rather than listening to the strong support for a devo max option from Unite members, Ms Lamont and her party is forming an alliance with the Tories against any constitutional change.
“This is not what Unite members voted for when they supported her leadership bid.
“The question has to be asked – if Johann Lamont isn’t even listening to her own supporters any more, who exactly is she listening to?
“The splits and divisions within the anti-independence parties are failing the people of Scotland who want to hear a strong debate on the constitution – not this negative approach refusing to listen to the voices of people across the country.”
Former First Minister Henry McLeish urged Scottish Labour to change its attitude towards further powers earlier this year and called on Ms Lamont to “lead the debate”.
He said: “We should be less concerned about whether it’s devo-plus or devo-max, but Labour has to lead the debate on the future for Scotland, which is neither independence or the status quo.
“Labour is the party that delivered devolution in 1997 and the party now has to embrace devo diversity and see how we can lead and develop the debate.”
Comments
#
2012-06-19 21:28
It seems clear that the unionist parties are more concerned with holding onto Scotland for as long as possible by delivering the least amount of powers they can get away with every time we get gifted more powers by our Westminster masters.
They know Scotland will go for its independence at some point, if not in 2 years time then maybe ten down the road.
Preserving the union at all costs is their mindset even if Scotland continues to suffer because of it.
I`m sure i`m not the only one who is a little discouraged by the SNP`s inability to get a clear message out.
They are the party of Government in Scotland so surely that would be of some benefit in being able to drive the agenda but I would say they are on the back foot too much and must start attacking the weak unionist position.
Explain why we need job creating powers and control of the purse strings, explain that we will not get these powers if we vote no.
Keep the messages simple and people will be won over in time for the vote.
Attack the unionist fear mongers (Darling) the way they have attacked the FM.
The gloves must come off sooner rather than later and we must see some more passion from the SNP.
The first four years they did well and proved they were capable, people don`t doubt them on that but they do need and many want to be convinced that independence will improve the lives of them and their family.
They know Scotland will go for its independence at some point, if not in 2 years time then maybe ten down the road.
Preserving the union at all costs is their mindset even if Scotland continues to suffer because of it.
I`m sure i`m not the only one who is a little discouraged by the SNP`s inability to get a clear message out.
They are the party of Government in Scotland so surely that would be of some benefit in being able to drive the agenda but I would say they are on the back foot too much and must start attacking the weak unionist position.
Explain why we need job creating powers and control of the purse strings, explain that we will not get these powers if we vote no.
Keep the messages simple and people will be won over in time for the vote.
Attack the unionist fear mongers (Darling) the way they have attacked the FM.
The gloves must come off sooner rather than later and we must see some more passion from the SNP.
The first four years they did well and proved they were capable, people don`t doubt them on that but they do need and many want to be convinced that independence will improve the lives of them and their family.
#
2012-06-19 21:53
Are you for real cjmasta?
Do you actualy live in Scotland?
I will give you a clue,MEDIA.
I will give you another clue,
Broadcasting Media.
Do you actualy live in Scotland?
I will give you a clue,MEDIA.
I will give you another clue,
Broadcasting Media.
#
2012-06-19 22:25
Precisely why they must at every opportunity be on the ball, be passionate, attack the weak unionist position and counter the continuing crap that pours from the likes of Alistair Darling.
Get the big hitters out their as much as possible on the telly and even boycott the BBC to highlight the fact the what should be a trusted media outlet is not to be trusted any more.
I was there outside the BBC a month or so ago to make my feelings known on their bias.
I`ll be going around doors to do my bit also for the yes camp.
If we`re fighting on unionist turf and by their rules ( BBC studios/interviewers)th en we must up our game a bit.
These are my personal feelings of course, I have friends who may disagree but I think we are probably as frustrated as each other. We may disagree on what we think should be the way forward. We both want the same thing rgweir.
Get the big hitters out their as much as possible on the telly and even boycott the BBC to highlight the fact the what should be a trusted media outlet is not to be trusted any more.
I was there outside the BBC a month or so ago to make my feelings known on their bias.
I`ll be going around doors to do my bit also for the yes camp.
If we`re fighting on unionist turf and by their rules ( BBC studios/interviewers)th en we must up our game a bit.
These are my personal feelings of course, I have friends who may disagree but I think we are probably as frustrated as each other. We may disagree on what we think should be the way forward. We both want the same thing rgweir.
#
2012-06-19 22:02
Devo-Max would be my first choice however I will have no hesitation in voting "YES" to independence if the Devo option is not available.
There isn't a poll as yet that challenges Scotland’s desire for more internal political and economical power.
Westminster is trying force me from voting, and up with that I will not put.
There isn't a poll as yet that challenges Scotland’s desire for more internal political and economical power.
Westminster is trying force me from voting, and up with that I will not put.
#
2012-06-19 22:43
Thats the way I used to think but I eventually came to the realization that if they are willing to deny Democratic choice in such an important matter, we can forget ever having a say in anything.
#
2012-06-20 01:01
Can I just point out that any power that Westminster retains will be abused to the maximum amount. Therefore devo max will mean Scots paying the earth for 'reserved services' like defence.
#
2012-06-19 23:03
Scotland at Ten
Time: 22:05 to 22:30 (25 minutes long).
When: Tuesday 19th June on BBC Hospital Radio Scotland
A "full" roundup of politics at Holyrood and Westminster from a "Scottish" perspective. Sarah Paterson discusses what a miserable idea the Sterling zone is with world renowned economic experts Alf Young and Bill Jamieson. What a sensible man that Alistair Darling is, says Bill. We'll have less power than we do know, moans Alf. Don't I sound posh, says Sarah.
Keywords: News; "Factual"; Oh boy, Newsnicht is at it as well, but at least with a token nat this time
Time: 22:05 to 22:30 (25 minutes long).
When: Tuesday 19th June on BBC Hospital Radio Scotland
A "full" roundup of politics at Holyrood and Westminster from a "Scottish" perspective. Sarah Paterson discusses what a miserable idea the Sterling zone is with world renowned economic experts Alf Young and Bill Jamieson. What a sensible man that Alistair Darling is, says Bill. We'll have less power than we do know, moans Alf. Don't I sound posh, says Sarah.
Keywords: News; "Factual"; Oh boy, Newsnicht is at it as well, but at least with a token nat this time
#
2012-06-19 23:37
Yes, but still two to one against, with Brewer taking up the role of balancing the discussion, (not!).
Thank goodness Kerevan drew attention to the fact that Alf Young is an old labourite.
Alf never gives a balanced political view of the state of things. He always quickly turns to SNP bashing.
What's happened to STV's politics programme? It appears to be as scarce as hobby horse s**t. Are they on their summer holidays already?
Thank goodness Kerevan drew attention to the fact that Alf Young is an old labourite.
Alf never gives a balanced political view of the state of things. He always quickly turns to SNP bashing.
What's happened to STV's politics programme? It appears to be as scarce as hobby horse s**t. Are they on their summer holidays already?
#
2012-06-19 23:48
They were discussing Scotland being in a sterling zone and Brewer appeared to ask Alf Young about there being a run against Scotland on the international market and Scotland not being able to devalue. Surely such a run would be against sterling and not Scotland.
#
2012-06-20 10:06
[quote name="J Wil"]Yes, but still two to one against, with Brewer taking up the role of balancing the discussion, (not!).
Thank goodness Kerevan drew attention to the fact that Alf Young is an old labourite.
I agree, that's exactly how it should be done. No abuse just a simple comment showing where Young's affiliations lie.
Thank goodness Kerevan drew attention to the fact that Alf Young is an old labourite.
I agree, that's exactly how it should be done. No abuse just a simple comment showing where Young's affiliations lie.
#
2012-06-19 23:58
Quoting the wallace:
Nether can they reply to the growing demand for an explanation/update on the bbc style of formatting on this site
[NNS cannot publish posts advocating actions which are illegal - NNS Mod Team]
Nether can they reply to the growing demand for an explanation/update on the bbc style of formatting on this site
#
2012-06-20 00:02
Aye, I watched newsnicht.
First, if they think that kind of crap & their crappy coverage of a poll last night is going to depress us they can think again.
Nothing motivates me more than the bias of the BBC.
We had Douglas pretending its all just too hard to understand. 'Whit kind of notes will I get oot the machine ?' - Well Mr Fraser, it doesn't matter. What matters is how they are underwritten. The problems in Europe are not about the Euro per se, they are more about the fact money was spent which didn't exist. Whether it was Euros, dollars or pounds makes no difference. I know a man called Gordon who went to get pounds oot his bank & found that he was overdrawn by £1.5 trillion quid. Computer said no. So you know what he did ? He printed more money. Of course, he had some oil lying around which soothed the pain.
Then we had Bill n Alf - the auld firm - I worry that Bill actually knows nothing. I have never heard him give an articulate, objective assessment of both sides of an economic argument. Brewer asked him a question about Swinney's speech and Bill trotted oot whit 'Alistair tellt me cos he's a big man fae London & knows lots of things' - which was if I remember 'I was in the cabinet for 13 years, much of it at the treasury as chief secretary & chancellor while the economy boomed and busted so whit day ah know'
Alf supported Labour, indeed he was a Labour party researcher. Which somewhat damages his neutrality
Then it all got lost in the deliberately confusing details about marginal tax-rates, EU rules & complex negotiations.
What we need to hammer home time and again is Independence isn't about what economic policy we pursue.
Independence is about the RIGHT to have an economic policy & to change it as circumstances demand.
BBC - we are not going away anytime soon.
First, if they think that kind of crap & their crappy coverage of a poll last night is going to depress us they can think again.
Nothing motivates me more than the bias of the BBC.
We had Douglas pretending its all just too hard to understand. 'Whit kind of notes will I get oot the machine ?' - Well Mr Fraser, it doesn't matter. What matters is how they are underwritten. The problems in Europe are not about the Euro per se, they are more about the fact money was spent which didn't exist. Whether it was Euros, dollars or pounds makes no difference. I know a man called Gordon who went to get pounds oot his bank & found that he was overdrawn by £1.5 trillion quid. Computer said no. So you know what he did ? He printed more money. Of course, he had some oil lying around which soothed the pain.
Then we had Bill n Alf - the auld firm - I worry that Bill actually knows nothing. I have never heard him give an articulate, objective assessment of both sides of an economic argument. Brewer asked him a question about Swinney's speech and Bill trotted oot whit 'Alistair tellt me cos he's a big man fae London & knows lots of things' - which was if I remember 'I was in the cabinet for 13 years, much of it at the treasury as chief secretary & chancellor while the economy boomed and busted so whit day ah know'
Alf supported Labour, indeed he was a Labour party researcher. Which somewhat damages his neutrality
Then it all got lost in the deliberately confusing details about marginal tax-rates, EU rules & complex negotiations.
What we need to hammer home time and again is Independence isn't about what economic policy we pursue.
Independence is about the RIGHT to have an economic policy & to change it as circumstances demand.
BBC - we are not going away anytime soon.
#
2012-06-20 00:37
O/T
Interesting developments between Cameron and the Argentinian President, with Cameron playing the entitlement card for the Falkland Islanders to have a referendum.
At some point is this not going to rebound on him the way he is treating Scotland's referendum, or is that different?
I think he is treading on dangerous ground.
Interesting developments between Cameron and the Argentinian President, with Cameron playing the entitlement card for the Falkland Islanders to have a referendum.
At some point is this not going to rebound on him the way he is treating Scotland's referendum, or is that different?
I think he is treading on dangerous ground.
#
2012-06-20 16:11
This idea of self-determination for the Falklands/Malvinas is a red herring. The principal concept in question is the "self-determination of nations" and the Falklands is not and cannot be held as a nation in its own right.
The resolution of the Malvinas question is a colonialism issue and must be dealt with in other international legal spheres, taking other issues into consideration.
One issue is the Latin American Treaty of Tlatelolco, which prohibits nuclear weapons in the region. UK ownership of the Falklands has led to this pro-peace agreement being violated and the region's leadership being undermined.
If the UK wants to stay in South America, it must cooperate with the rest of the continent, as promoting the principal of self-determination for the islands is simply not enough.
The resolution of the Malvinas question is a colonialism issue and must be dealt with in other international legal spheres, taking other issues into consideration.
One issue is the Latin American Treaty of Tlatelolco, which prohibits nuclear weapons in the region. UK ownership of the Falklands has led to this pro-peace agreement being violated and the region's leadership being undermined.
If the UK wants to stay in South America, it must cooperate with the rest of the continent, as promoting the principal of self-determination for the islands is simply not enough.
#
2012-06-20 03:04
I have just read Peter A. Bell's blog about 3 worst case scenarios of what is likely to happen to Scotland if the NOs win the referendum - it's scary
peterabell.blogspot.co.uk/
peterabell.blogspot.co.uk/
#
2012-06-20 06:09
The catch 22, Devo Max question is the one that will bring about independence.
Westminster dare not give us F.F.A. which as a result will push the seventy odd percent who would take it firmly into the YES camp as the status que is not an option. Westminster knows this and as there is no actual positive case for the union (even the flag is dsgusting)they will be reduced to scare stories and name calling, the good old westmonster way.
Westminster dare not give us F.F.A. which as a result will push the seventy odd percent who would take it firmly into the YES camp as the status que is not an option. Westminster knows this and as there is no actual positive case for the union (even the flag is dsgusting)they will be reduced to scare stories and name calling, the good old westmonster way.
#
2012-06-20 11:47
DevoMax won't be on the ballot paper, but will be offered if the Scots say NO to independence (snigger snigger), that's how it will be played out by Cameron. Jam tomorrow!
Cameron doesn't want to be the PM that oversees Scotland becoming independent so he will drag out any jam tomorrow rhetoric for as long as he can. He will probably be a second term PM as England shifts more to the Right so any notion of Scotland being fiscally independent will not happen before 2020.
Scotland under jam tomorrow will probably become independent around 2030 as the rUK desperately needs Scotland's monetary input for the next 20 years.
VOTE YES 2014!
Cameron doesn't want to be the PM that oversees Scotland becoming independent so he will drag out any jam tomorrow rhetoric for as long as he can. He will probably be a second term PM as England shifts more to the Right so any notion of Scotland being fiscally independent will not happen before 2020.
Scotland under jam tomorrow will probably become independent around 2030 as the rUK desperately needs Scotland's monetary input for the next 20 years.
VOTE YES 2014!
#
2012-06-20 14:14
I am pretty sure that the Tory representatives in Scotland (Labour) will have reassured the Condems that they have all their ducks lined up and that there is nothing to worry about.
So we can expect more statements relating to the referendum such as "not fussed" from Cameron and friends as long as they have these assurances.
But...can they trust the polls and what happens if Labour are wrong ?
So we can expect more statements relating to the referendum such as "not fussed" from Cameron and friends as long as they have these assurances.
But...can they trust the polls and what happens if Labour are wrong ?
#
2012-06-20 11:54
As I've said before many times-----a MEANINGFUL Devo-Max would NEVER get through the Commons,whichev er party is in government at Westminster.
Can you imagine a Geordie or Scouser MP voting in favour?
I'm for independence,an d always have been.The only sensible path.
Anything less,leaves meaningful levers of power within the Westminster remit.
Add to that----it just doesn't make sense!
The BBC and other British 'Establishment'(Labour/Tory) institutions would continue 'doing down' Scotland while we enjoy Devo-Max!
Daily snipes from the 'Daily and Sunday Snipes'.
The worst possible scenario.
Can you imagine a Geordie or Scouser MP voting in favour?
I'm for independence,an d always have been.The only sensible path.
Anything less,leaves meaningful levers of power within the Westminster remit.
Add to that----it just doesn't make sense!
The BBC and other British 'Establishment'(Labour/Tory) institutions would continue 'doing down' Scotland while we enjoy Devo-Max!
Daily snipes from the 'Daily and Sunday Snipes'.
The worst possible scenario.
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