Cameron and Miliband unite as London battles for control of Scottish referendum

General

Thursday, 12 January 2012 06:52

248 Comments

By a Newsnet reporter
 
Labour leader Ed Miliband and Tory PM David Cameron have joined together against the Scottish Government’s plan for an independence referendum.
 
The show of unity between the two party leaders came in the wake of attempts by the Tory/Lib Dem coalition to dictate the terms of the referendum that is now earmarked for Autumn 2014.

Speaking at yesterday's Prime Ministers Questions, Mr Cameron claimed that there was support “right across the house” for the steps taken by the coalition who have claimed that Mr Salmond does not have the power to hold a referendum.

He was joined by the Labour leader who called on Unionists to put forward a positive case for the Union and insisted that the referendum was a decisive moment that they could not afford to get wrong.  Nodding in agreement as Mr Cameron attacked the SNP - Mr Miliband claimed that the UK was “stronger together, weaker apart”.

The SNP responded to the joint attack by claiming that Mr Miliband’s show of unity with Mr Cameron was further evidence of disarray in the anti-independence camp.

The Nationalists claim that the sight of Labour MPs backing a Tory Government against the ambitions of the Scottish people will horrify Labour voters across Scotland and cause further splits in the party after Shadow Labour Defence Secretary Jim Murphy refused to share a platform with David Cameron saying "I'm not going to share a platform with him on the referendum".

SNP Campaign Director and Westminster leader Angus Robertson MP, who raised the UK Government’s attempts to interfere in Scotland’s referendum at Prime Minister’s Questions, said:

“In ganging up with David Cameron against any more powers for Scotland, Ed Miliband has deepened the Labour split over sharing a platform with the Tories.

“Jim Murphy must be reeling.  First he refuses to share a platform with David Cameron, then Ed Miliband invites Cameron to campaign with him against powers for Scotland.

“Labour will be misreading and misrepresenting the Scottish people and many in their own party if they continue with this plan to team up with the Tories.

“As independence moves ahead in the polls, we are seeing complete disarray and division in the Unionist camp.

“What David Cameron and Ed Miliband seem to be in denial about is that the Scottish Government achieved an overwhelming mandate from the people of Scotland to hold the referendum in the second half of this parliamentary term, and that is exactly what we will do.

“Both Cameron and Miliband would be wise to hold to the position that all these matters will be determined by the people and parliament of Scotland.

“The Scottish Parliament is perfectly capable of doing exactly that – supported by the overwhelming mandate of the people of Scotland – and Westminster politicians should just let the people and parliament of Scotland deliver the referendum in the timescale set out in the election.

“The only anxiety in these matters seems to be among Westminster-based politicians, who have gone from a position of wanting no referendum to demanding one immediately – with no intervening period whatsoever, and no mandate to do so.”

The support offered by the Labour leader for Mr Cameron’s stance was similar to that offered by many Scottish Labour MPs at Tuesday’s announcement by Lib Dem Secretary of State Michael Moore when he confirmed the UK government’s intention to try to dictate referendum terms to the Scottish Government.

Mr Moore claimed that any referendum would be illegal unless it had the backing of London.  The Lib Dem MP also refused to back calls for 16 year olds to be allowed to take part, despite lowering the election age being a policy of his own party.

However this was different from a statement from Mr Moore back in May 2011 when he promised that the UK coalition would not stand in the way of an independence referendum run by the Scottish Government.

Speaking days after the SNP’s historic win last May Mr Moore said: “"I firmly believe the Scottish Parliament, if it so decides, can proceed with a referendum," and added: "We could, I suppose, try to make a constitutional issue about where the powers lie or don't, but I don't think that would be a sensible use of anybody's time.”

Mr Moore isn’t the only Unionist politician to concede the SNP have the power to hold a referendum. 

On Dec 19th, shortly after being elected leader of Labour in Scotland Johann Lamont told the Daily Record: "There is nothing inhibiting him [Salmond] calling a referendum, giving us a date, making sure there is clarity in the question and then engaging in a hard political debate about which future vision for Scotland people want.

On December 31st Ms Lamont confirmed her belief saying: “There is nothing in the SNP manifesto which stops them from naming the day for a referendum now.”

Even BBC Scotland’s own political reporter Andrew Black admitted back in May that the election result handed the SNP the power to hold the referendum.  Days after the result he said: “It's all very well for the UK government to say it won't stand in the way of an independence referendum.  But the bottom line is this is happening, whether the coalition likes it or not.”

However BBC Scotland’s attitude seems now to have changed with many reporters seemingly unwilling to inform viewers and listeners of earlier statements from Unionist politicians conceding what many constitutional experts are now openly confirming, including World renowned referendum expert Dr Matt Qvortrup, that the Scottish Government does indeed have the power to hold a consultative referendum.

Last Night Newsnight Scotland finally managed to locate an academic who would take the same view as the UK coalition Government.  However even Professor Adam Tomkins had to concede that so called 'illegality' depended on the question to be asked, thus by implication a consultative referendum can indeed be legal.

Mr Tomkins, who last year claimed that "Scottish Ministers do not speak for Scotland", described David Cameron's attempts at dictating terms to the Scottish Government as "an extraordinarily generous offer" by the Tory PM.  This description chimed with some of BBC Scotland's own presenters and editors who have variously described Mr Cameron's moves as an "offer" and a "reasonable offer".

Newsnight Scotland also had on as a guest, the Daily Record's Torcuil Crichton who claimed that Cameron had the early upper hand and Salmond had "blinked" first.  Mr Crichton was not introduced to viewers as a Unionist leaning journalist - which he is.  After the First Minister had announced the time of the referendum on SKY news, Mr Crichton tweeted to one Raymond Buchanan "Aye, he goes to Sky first because the channel doesn't have the word British in the title."

There are now growing concerns over BBC Scotland's handling of this latest constitutional debate.  Yesterday BBC Scotland’s Gary Robertson prevented First Minister Alex Salmond from reading out a quote from Michael Moore in which the Lib Dem MP had admitted that Holyrood had the power to run a referendum.

Many viewers are also expressing disquiet over the emerging habit by the BBC to provide each of the three anti-independence parties a platform on any debates and discussions, against only one independence supporting speaker.

Some SNP supporters are questioning why there are not rules in place to prevent such an imbalance whenever the constitution is discussed, whilst others are puzzled at the lack of opportunity afforded smaller parties such as the Greens, Scottish Socialists and independents like Margo McDonald.

Comments  

 

# colin8652 2012-01-12 08:04

what was it a MP once said, "Its Like being savaged by a dead sheep!"

 

 

# stonefaction 2012-01-12 08:18

Ah, the mythical "positive case for the Union" raises its head again. Still no mention of what it actually is yet though?

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 10:08

In yersterday's PMQ, Ed Milliband gave the case for the union, when he listed the benefits, namely, defence, the NHS and the BBC.

Defence - including the hated Trident; the wars in Iraq and elsewhere.
The NHS - not a Westminster issue
The BBC - aye, right.

 

 

# Rusty Shackleford 2012-01-12 11:30

Quoting farrochie:

The NHS - not a Westminster issue

Given that it was a Labour government that created the Scottish NHS over half a century ago, you would think that Milliband Jr would know that it has never been run directly from Westminster. I suppose that would depend on Ed actually leading a Labour party though, which it hasn't been for some time.

 

 

# SaltireAboveAll 2012-01-12 12:21

Waiting for EXILE to provide us with that.

 

 

# Exile 2012-01-12 14:16

SaltireAboveAll

Perhaps you should read my comments more carefully. If you're wanting a list of the benefits of the Union from me, you'll wait a very long time indeed, as I don't believe there are any. You wouldn't perhaps be confusing me with someone else whose moniker also begins ex...but with a small E?

 

 

# proudscot 2012-01-12 17:58

Quoting stonefaction:

Ah, the mythical "positive case for the Union" raises its head again. Still no mention of what it actually is yet though?

Milliband repeated their one mantra when he stood up to align his party with the Tories, "Stronger together, weaker apart."

 

 

# clootie 2012-01-12 08:46

tug forelock and be grateful Westminster will ALLOW you to have a vote!

The RED tories are getting closer and closer to their blue buddies.
Do Labour supporters in Scotland really support this?
Are there no Labour members pro-independence?

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 09:18

Aye, and I know a few who are fairly disgusted with their leadership. Everyone in the media assumes that if you support independence then you are a member of the SNP only. They are in for a helluva shock!

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you and then you win.

I'd say we're at stage three now clootie.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 10:16

"Are there no Labour members pro-independence?"

clootie, a question I posted many times, including on Labourhame. My feeling is that the Independence-minded Labour Party members have been silenced. The UK Party has decided that alternating Tory/Labour administrations in London suit Scots much better than Scots having a government of their choice. The abuse that Labour MPs hurl at the SNP members in Westminster says it all.

 

 

# Alibi 2012-01-12 08:48

I've been saying for at least the last 5 years that the media are a disgrace in their reporting of matters involving Scottish politics. However the BBC seem to have got even worse. Jackie Bird on Reporting Scotland headlined an item with an unchallenged statement about "the threat of independence". Why is it a "threat"? The language used is slanted to make independence sound in some way perverted, abnormal, evil, undesirable. I'm not sure what can be done about it but ignoring it is not a tactic the SNP should adopt - if it is pointed out by a high profile SNP figure, the general public might statrt to realise what is going on here.

 

 

# scottish_skier 2012-01-12 09:01

of course folks will all remember this:

bbc.co.uk/.../...

UK government 'will not block' Scotland referendum

The UK government will not move to block a referendum on Scottish independence, the Secretary of State for Scotland has said.

The newly-elected majority SNP Scottish government intends to bring forward a referendum in its five-year term.

The Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems all oppose independence.

Scottish Secretary Michael Moore told the BBC, "The decision on when and if to have a referendum... is a matter for the new Scottish Parliament".

Aye.

 

 

# raisethegame 2012-01-12 09:03

I loved this from 'Annie Baird' on a Scotsman thread "Labour plans Save Devo push to avoid clash with Alex Salmond":

""The Unionist Human Centipede" is taking shape. In the most recent film version, 12 unfortunates were stitched together to form a single digestive canal. This updated version also has 12 unionist politicians in the same configuration.
Cameron->Osborne->Moore->Alexander->Miliband->Darling->Curran->Rennie->Kennedy->MingCampbell->Sarwar
->Lamont
Poor old Rosa Klebb !"

 

 

# Electric Hermit 2012-01-12 09:05

Surely the greatest concern in all of this is the deplorable conduct of BBC Scotland. The anti-independence campaign lacks talent and a coherent strategy. But it has the media. There is not much that can be done about the press. Even a mass boycott of newspapers such as The Scotsman would probably achieve no more than a barely perceptible acceleration of the decline in its plummeting circulation figures. And it can always be argued that it is the role of the dead tree press to take sides in political contests.

But the "national" broadcaster has an indisputable public service remit. That BBC Scotland is failing to fulfil that remit and abide by the principles of the corporation's charter is beyond doubt.

The question is, what do we do about it?

This is not a matter that the SNP or the Scottish government can tackle head-on. Not, at least, until the official campaign for the referendum has started and electoral regulation takes effect. An attack by the SNP on the BBC at this stage would only aggravate the situation. It would inevitably be represented as the party seeking to "gag" the broadcaster.

It is the public who must take the BBC to task. After all, the BBC is ours. And it is we who are being so palpably ill-served by its management and editorial staff in Scotland. Surely the time has come for a coordinated campaign to set things right.

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 09:22

If I was them EH, I'd be brushing up on my CV. Real high on my agenda after 'I' Day would be a National digital broadcast channel for Scotland.

 

 

# Electric Hermit 2012-01-12 09:42

All my life I have been among the staunchest defenders of the BBC. I still see it as the last great bastion of public service broadcasting and will continue to support its independent funding model. Condemnation of the BBC does not come easily to me as it does to many. That I am moved to such lengths is, perhaps, a measure of the extent to which BBC Scotland in particular has let me down. I will not soon forgive the people who have brought a great institution to this sorry pass.

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 09:57

Same here EH. I've always been a huge fan of BEEB programming, but the news service and particularly the Scottish branch are complete strangers to political objectivity. I will shed no tears when they are no longer my national broadcaster.

 

 

# bigskelf 2012-01-12 10:00

Thank you EH you have put in words my own feelings about the BBC exactly.
My dislike of Sky knows no bounds and the pause/fast-fwd buttons are about worn out from watching the other commercial channels.
Signed up for netflix yesterday what with that and BBC Alba I can usually find something to watch in the evening

 

 

# TOHILL 2012-01-12 20:37

E.H.
I would like to take the liberty of giving you my mail address to discuss some matters of importance that I believe may be mutually beneficial. I have been asking the NNS team in recent times to make a facility available for those of us who would like to be able to liase more closely, but this has not been forthcoming. I would be obliged if you would contact me bth1888hotmail.com.

 

 

# Jim Johnston 2012-01-12 09:20

The Westminster set up to reveal the Tory Labour pact on anti-Scottish Independence was classic farce.

Did anyone else pick up Millibands pionts about "shared institutions".

1. The NHS .... The Scottish government have complete control now,
except for our pocket money allocation !!

2. Defence.... They want Trident Scotland does not, and will get rid of all WMD systems and nuclear power.

3. THE BBC !!!!!!

AYE RIGHT..

The Union is now going down for the third time. Desperate straits indeed.

ps. Another Alex Salmond master stroke coming up in Holyrood today, He will force a vote on backing Scotlands right to set, hold and run the referendum. Let Labour get out of that one !!!

 

 

# scottish_skier 2012-01-12 09:22

Here, don't forget the Disney Channel. We all share that too!

 

 

# scottish_skier 2012-01-12 09:26

Oh no, hang on, that's the BBC Parliament channel...

 

 

# mountaincadre 2012-01-12 09:37

I believe Jimj that the biggest problem for all the other parties will be the moment when the parliment is asked to reafirm the soverinty of the Scottish people, anyone who does'nt renages any authority to lead or talk on behalf of the soverein Scottish people.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 10:21

Jim, apologies, I responded above in almost exactly the same words to stonefaction, before I read down to your post. We used almost identical words, no plagiarism I assure you, purely thinking alike!

 

 

# Angus 2012-01-12 09:21

We have Westminster and the British media behaving like bullys, their attitudes belittle themselves more than they do us.
We should bide our time and keep the strength for when its needed.

 

 

# mudfries 2012-01-12 09:33

Being told that we need the permission of politicians in another country to determine our futures is enough reason ALONE to vote for Independence.

 

 

# Aplinal 2012-01-12 09:37

Must confess to be in two minds about the BBC and the Unionist MSM. On the one hand their perpetual fear mongering, "Too wee, too poor, too stupid etc." is sure to annoy even more people as it continues, and increases over the next 2+ years. This might well have the opposite effect to that planned for - i.e. MORE people vote YES as a reaction.

BUT ... The perpetually one-sided propaganda is also likely to reinforce the decades of misinformation that you can see on any of the Scottish blogs over the last few years.

So, how to get the truth out to the peoples of Scotland? The MSM is a dead duck, the BBC is a disgrace, and we can not just hope to rely on web sites like NNS. Many people, who we need to convince are likely to be limited web users, and probably not those that will search / surf the web for information.

I am sure that the SNP have a plan, AS certainly is playing Westminster unionistas like a salmon (pun intended)and will reel them in, but I do fear that when push comes to shove, too many Scots will fail to take up the challenge that independence will be.

Thoughts ... ?

 

 

# Training Day 2012-01-12 10:45

Aplinal, it's a tricky one. The BBC plumbed new depths yesterday with Robertson almost screaming over Salmond as the latter attempted to expose the contradictions in Moore's utterances; with the Professor who abandoned academic neutrality on Newsnight; and then with the presentation of Crichton as an objective commentator. But it will only get worse from them, and there will remain a section of our population who will not be convinced that the BBC is anything other than impartial.

We must get information to every household in Scotland direct. The briefing the SNP have prepared for members for the independence roadshows is a start, but a form of this MUST be delivered to every person in Scotland.. and very soon!

 

 

# iReferee 2012-01-12 11:18

Totally agree, the SNP cannot let this go on. They need to quickly start getting the message out of the benefits of independence. Until this happens there will only be a few of us able to challenge the media.

 

 

# Caledonian Lass 2012-01-12 13:03

Quoting Aplinal:

Must confess to be in two minds about the BBC and the Unionist MSM. On the one hand their perpetual fear mongering, "Too wee, too poor, too stupid etc." is sure to annoy even more people as it continues, and increases over the next 2+ years. This might well have the opposite effect to that planned for - i.e. MORE people vote YES as a reaction.

BUT ... The perpetually one-sided propaganda is also likely to reinforce the decades of misinformation that you can see on any of the Scottish blogs over the last few years.

So, how to get the truth out to the peoples of Scotland? The MSM is a dead duck, the BBC is a disgrace, and we can not just hope to rely on web sites like NNS. Many people, who we need to convince are likely to be limited web users, and probably not those that will search / surf the web for information.

I am sure that the SNP have a plan, AS certainly is playing Westminster unionistas like a salmon (pun intended)and will reel them in, but I do fear that when push comes to shove, too many Scots will fail to take up the challenge that independence will be.

Thoughts ... ?

How do we get the truth out to the people of Scotland? Well,we tell people how the Union was a 'forced marriage', point out the many injustices Scotland has had to suffer, explain how the truth has been suppressed for years and that the MSM and national newspapers are only giving out one-sided versions which will support the union. We should also hammer home the fact to Labour supporters that Labour politicians are agreeing with the Tories and there seems to be a pan-unionist group who are united against independence for Scotland.

People should be made aware of how Scotland has been used as a dumping ground for post-war weapons. Other things worth a mention are the McCrone Report, the 40% majority required for Scottish Devolution in 1979 when in fact the 'yes' voters outnumbered the 'no' voters and of course the theft of 6,000 square miles of Scottish sea.

 

 

# hiorta 2012-01-12 09:39

""stronger together, weaker apart” ""....
A Unionist.

In Scotland's case the very opposite is true.

Observe the terrified Unionists flight from Democracy.

 

 

# Blanco 2012-01-12 12:05

You forget what they mutter under their breath.. "(London is) stronger together, weaker apart". It might be true for the UK but it is not true for Scotland.

 

 

# thomsor 2012-01-12 09:40

No one should be surprised with the alignment of the unionist parties against a free and demotratic Scotland. The Con/Dems need our oil wealth to run their austerity programme and Labour need Scottish MPs in Westminster if they are ever going to get into power again. Scotland has always a comodity for the unionists, but not for much longer. The sight of Moore side by side with Cameron on the front bench, then telling the people of Scotland what they can and can not do, was nauseating. What now for Labour in Scotland, what weasle words will we get now?

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 09:51

You have to laugh folks. Dave the champion of the condescending remark teams up with the guy who couldn't remember the all the names of his north British branch leadership candidates. The only time ghillie jocko land comes into focus is when the tartan cash cow is about to bail and we can't have that wot, wot, wot!

It seems that every week there's a new dream team who will lead the crusade against independence. Listening to the pair of them on telly last night cuddling up to one another clearly stating that in effect they have still to come up with a positive case for the union. Here's a hint lads if you have to make a case up you've already lost. There either is a case or there isn't one and we really don't need to be hearing some upper class doorknob tell us in his most patronising tone that we're stronger together and that we built an empire together.

I'm going for a lie down!

 

 

# Suomi 2012-01-12 10:20

What is happening now and what exactly is Milliband agreeing to? Since the SNP have rejected Cameron's offer of a referendum with strings attached,and since Alec Salmond has anounced a date for the referendum,does London still plan to introduce its own referendum? I do wonder whether they realise that this interference will increase support for the SNP and/or support for independence.That is fine with me.

I am also confused about the legality issue.Lallands Peat Worrier some time back provided a convincing argument that only London could legally sanction a referendum.Peat Worrier is an SNP supporter so what he has to say merits detailed examinination.It is possible that the devolution act reserved the powers to hold a referendum,with Westminster.However,people on this site have talked about sovereignty being held by the people,internat ional law,Vienna conventions and moral arguments etc.Could someone on this site kindly clarify and summarise the various perspectives around this very confusing topic.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 10:43

Suomi. There are people with an understanding of this that is better than mine, but I urge you to read this article: journalonline.co.uk/.../...

In the current consultative paper issued by Moore this week, the Westminster Government (WG) claims that the referendum (even though advisory in nature) is ultimately about a "reserved matter". WG therefore claims that the SG has no legal authority to run a referendum which would be open to challenge in the courts.

However, referring to the article I quoted, the WG is probably in a similar position. The union was made by a treaty under international law. WG has no authority to change this treaty (as distinct from the two Acts of Union in domestic law) because it is part of international law. Any referendum run by WG on a matter over which it ultimately has no legal authority could likewise be challenged under international law.

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 10:52

This may help suomi.

scotsman.com/.../...

Dr Qvortrup is a well respected expert in the field of referenda.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 11:16

Thanks, Macart. I love this sentence: "So unless London wants to follow the Soviet Union in 1990, it cannot block Scottish independence".

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 11:46

Yep, its all about the type referendum at the end of the day. It doesn't have to be legally binding in terms of the constitution only politically binding.

 

 

# clootie 2012-01-12 11:54

Thanks for the link - common sense arguement and makes perfect sense.

 

 

# Blanco 2012-01-12 12:09

I think everyone knows that only Westminster can sanction a legally binding referendum, due to the limitations on the powers of the Scottish Executive as laid out by the Scotland Act of 1998. But law sometimes lags behind political reality. If a majority of people vote for independence then the game is up for the unionists, whatever the legal niceties.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 18:42

Blanco. There are limitations to the power of Westminster in relation to the treaty of union. The treaty was drafted by commissioners and was ratified by the Scottish and English Parliaments. So the treaty was in existence before the UK Parliament existed and remains a treaty under international law. The UK Parliament has no legal authority to amend the treaty. Therefore it can be argued that a legally binding referendum that ultimately leads to repeal of the treaty cannot be administered by Westminster.

 

 

# nchanter 2012-01-12 12:34

Quoting Suomi:

What is happening now and what exactly is Milliband agreeing to? Since the SNP have rejected Cameron's offer of a referendum with strings attached,and since Alec Salmond has anounced a date for the referendum,does London still plan to introduce its own referendum? I do wonder whether they realise that this interference will increase support for the SNP and/or support for independence.That is fine with me.

I am also confused about the legality issue.Lallands Peat Worrier some time back provided a convincing argument that only London could legally sanction a referendum.Peat Worrier is an SNP supporter so what he has to say merits detailed examinination.It is possible that the devolution act reserved the powers to hold a referendum,with Westminster.However,people on this site have talked about sovereignty being held by the people,internat ional law,Vienna conventions and moral arguments etc.Could someone on this site kindly clarify and summarise the various perspectives around this very confusing topic.

Thanks for that Boika I would also like to. know

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 13:01

Check out my link to a Scotsman article above! Here tae Help.

 

 

# SaltireAboveAll 2012-01-12 12:38

Robbie the pict ...any ideas where he is these days and if he has anything to say on the matter of the legality fo the referndum.

 

 

# govanite 2012-01-12 10:33

use the word independent as often as you can, in as many positive ways as you can - not necessarily political situations:

I bought it at an independent retailer
We are travelling independently
The elderly value their independence

 

 

# Blanco 2012-01-12 12:11

A good point govanite, I will try to remember it!

 

 

# Blanco 2012-01-12 12:24

Perhaps we should also preface the word 'unionists' with 'Lab-Con' to sow in people's minds the idea of the anti-Scottish forces of Cameron and Milliband working in concert...

 

 

# Mei 2012-01-12 10:36

Surely this story should read Davidson and Lamont unite ! They are the Scottish Leaders aren't they?

 

 

# MAcandroid 2012-01-12 16:34

Er - no, they would love us all to think that though wouldn't they?

 

 

# Marga B 2012-01-12 10:38

Has anyone seen this closing sentence in the guardian report by Owen Bowcott:

"Many suspect the Scottish National party has attempted to undermine the authority of the court's justices." (talking about the UK Supreme Court)

guardian.co.uk/.../...

Does it mean Salmond's remarks on its invasion of Scottish law?

Incidentally if England likes wars it's found a cheap one on its doorstep - see wartime vocabulary and closing of ranks. Frightening.

 

 

# Mac 2012-01-12 10:38

The anti-independence parties have already conceded the date. Look to concede on 16/17 year olds voting, and both Labour and Lib Dems are are moving towards conceding more powers for the Scottish parliament.

All that remains is(are) the referendum question(s) .

 

 

# The_Duke 2012-01-12 10:39

Heres a question I have for Camoron: Dave, you have been in power for coming up to 2 years now (approx 600 days)..... now we are 10% of the UK pop and you believe passionately in Scotland and the Scottish people (alledgedly)... have many visits have you made up here? 60? 50? 40?

Lucky if it has been 6.

 

 

# Keep UTG 2012-01-12 10:46

The "Economical Uncertainty" is another cracker,i noticed on the news that the FM had been at the opening of a Barclays office in Glasgow,i didn`t hear everything but thought i`d Google to find more info.....this is from THEIR website..........................In recent years we have seen a significant increase in both thenumbers of wealthy individuals around the world and the amount ofwealth that they hold. This presents a huge opportunity for BarclaysWealth, particularly as we work towards our goal of becoming thePremier European Wealth Manager. There has never been a more excitingtime to join Barclays Wealth in Glasgow and grow your career.

Scotland’sthriv ing economy has helped Glasgow establish itself as a major UKfinancial centre. Inward investment over the last five years has seenexcellent Financial Services industry growth of over 34%. Glasgow’sexpans ion continues at pace and the city continues to attract worldleading Financial Services firms.

This puts our presence inGlasgow at the hub of a hugely successful and growing market; careeropportuni ties and quality of life are comparable with other major UKand European cities and the concentration of leading firms has resultedin the City being able to offer superb career progression opportunitiesac ross the industry.

Barclays Wealth has committed to make asignificant investment in growing the Glasgow hub, building on thefoundations of our history as an employer for over 20 years. This is anexciting time for us, and we are delighted to be committing to asustainable and long-term future in the City.


We`re doomed i tell you!

 

 

# Marga B 2012-01-12 10:52

What do people think about the appearance of the "population share" of oil reserves which is starting to be mentioned. Is there any possibility of this being legal?

I should say it's quoted in the Severin Carroll article in the Guardian today (for a Scottish correspondent he seems to have surprisingly little sympathy with or knowledge of his subject sometimes):

London is likely to argue, however, that oil revenues belong to the UK as a whole, giving an independent Scotland about 8% of the revenues, in line with its portion of the UK population. This would amount to about £545m, according to Channel 4 News.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 10:58

Scotland will have an Exclusive Economic Zone, as will England & Wales. Within the EEZ, Scotland will have ownership of the resources, including natural resources (fisheries, hydrocarbons, minerals, gravel, etc). It is not a matter of population size and is a matter for international law.

 

 

# Blanco 2012-01-12 12:33

They will have no more territorial claim to it than they would to the waters around the Falklands should the Falklands declare independence. If an oil field was found off Devon, should an independent Scotland have a claim to it? Of course not, and vice versa.

 

 

# Old Smokey 2012-01-12 18:01

More of that guff on the Channel 4 News blog (you can add comment)
blogs.channel4.com/.../...

 

 

# cirsium 2012-01-13 00:33

Marga B - no possibility. Have a look at this craigmurray.org.uk/.../...

 

 

# dundie 2012-01-12 10:55

Now that there are more nuclear submarines than Tory MP's in Scotland - do they propose to remove the rusting hulks from Rosyth to Devonport? I think we should be told...

 

 

# govanite 2012-01-12 10:58

I don't want Labour and the LibDems getting in the way with some ill-defined 3rd option and trying to claim media time.

Make them stand with the tories in the No camp.

 

 

# Independista 2012-01-12 10:58

It is patently clear now, if it wasnt before, that Scottish Labour would rather sit in permanent opposition in Westminster, than form a Labour administration in an independent Scotland.
We need to get this message across to Scottish Labour on a daily basis.

 

 

# Marga B 2012-01-12 11:06

There's a heartfelt comment on a Guardian thread:

"I sometimes wish that London would become independent, so that people don't associate the dribble coming out of Westminster with England".

 

 

# Blanco 2012-01-12 12:34

They could team up with Shetland and form a new country, Shetdon. All the banks and all the oil ;)

 

 

# ubinworryinmasheep 2012-01-12 11:07

Its gonna be an interesting time in 2014/15. If we manage te win the referendum negotiations will start for pulling Scotland oot o the UK. It winna happen within a year and the UK elections will kick in the following year. The whole UK will be in turmoil as Labour winna hae te field candidates for Scottish seats that are shortly te disappear. Peer Ed wi his 'winning Scotland is the key te gettin back inte power at Westminster' nae that I thought Labour will get back in next time onywye.

 

 

# Hirta 2012-01-12 11:16

mark.thompsonbbc.co.uk

Email the BBC Director General. Time to bombard them with complaints. Enough is enough.

 

 

# Stevie Cosmic 2012-01-12 11:24

I think the answer to the BBC conundrum might lie in Europe. I'm trawling through some stuff on the EU parliament's site and, at least initially, it's showing up a few gems.

europarl.europa.eu/.../...

europarl.europa.eu/.../...

From the European Charter:
Quote:

Article 11

Freedom of expression and information

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of
expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions
and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless
of frontiers.

2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.

I'm still hammering away at this, but even a cursory glance at the legislation would seem to have the BBC in contravention of EU legislation. I don't think we should be seeking recourse to UK law or indeed any solution within the UK.

 

 

# creag an tuirc 2012-01-12 14:05

Stevie, someone on another thread said that Cameron coming up to Scotland to campaign to stay in the union could be deemed illegal by the UN as a state interfering with another states sovereignty.

Now, could this not be applied to the BBC, meaning they cannot broadcast pro union information from England and BBC Scotland monitored as they are British after all and have a vested interest in keeping the union.

Bit of a waffle, but it may give you another avenue to investigate.

 

 

# Stevie Cosmic 2012-01-13 10:39

The UN Covenant on Civil and Political Rights prevents Cameron (aka the UK government) from actively opposing Scottish independence, but the UK does have reservations about this clause, in the signatures section, where there may be conflict of interest for the UK. The reservation states that in this case, it would nonetheless uphold the relevant articles of the UN Charter instead. But the UN Charter more or less says the same thing, at least that is the take of the UN in their companion document to the Charter.

Like the rest of the constitutional blunders currently being committed by the UK, I feel this has to play out a little more before the blunders are of any use to the independence movement.

I'm not sure if the Covenant would apply directly to the BBC though. It is not the government, nor is it run by the government, but an organisation appointed by Royal Charter and ultimately answerable to HM government. I'm sure a case could be made for the BBC being an instrument of HM government's interference, but I can't see it being a compelling one outside Scotland.

I'm trying to find solid EU legislation on political broadcasting, with respect to political freedoms, but have been unsuccessful so far. I have a gut feeling that it must be there somewhere.

 

 

# AstroJuan 2012-01-12 11:30

O/T 'Scotland's Future' debate live here: news.bbc.co.uk/.../default.stm

Labour's Lewis McDonald: "A 'yes' vote to independence is a 'no' vote to devolution of any kind"
Errr, he's a bit confused, isn't he? The point of independence is we'll have control of our own destiny without the need for Westminster's approval. It is beyond me how they can consider this to be a credible stance given that 75%+ of people now want Devo-max AT LEAST.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 11:57

If McDonald means a return to Westminster rule then his comment ranks alongside George Robertson's 1995 statement that "Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead".

 

 

# Exile 2012-01-12 15:15

Looks like a thinly veiled threat to me. The leopard cannae change its spots.

 

 

# velofello 2012-01-12 11:31

EH: I couldn't describe myself as a longtime supporter of the BBC, more an unquestioning listener/viewer in my early adult life. However overseas assignments in a number of countries where BBC World Service was my media source soon demonstrated to me that the BBC is a means to promote England. And has been mentioned here on Newsnet many times, to the Brits England and Britain are synonymous words.
So I see no prospect of fair reporting from the BBC. The BBC will defend England.
No publicity is bad publicity its said, and likely the best that the SNP can hope from the BBC

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 11:59

The penny finally dropped with me when I was living in NL. The BBC TV World News ran an advert with the strapline "We'll tell you what you need to know".

 

 

# Barbazenzero 2012-01-12 11:32

As the US author Don DeLillo put it:
Never underestimate the power of the State to act out its own massive fantasies.

All three unionist tweedles seem to be suffering from a surfeit of that just now.

 

 

# Robert Louis 2012-01-12 11:34

Slightly off topic.

According to the SNP, in the 24 hours following David Cameron getting involved, they were signing up new members of the SNP at a rate of one every nine minutes.

109 new members since 6pm last night.

Read it and weep, 'Scottish' Labour.

 

 

# scottish_skier 2012-01-12 12:47

Was telling two of my work colleagues about this.

They are both currently signing up....

My Heartfelt thanks to Dave, Ed, Mike, Johann and the team!

 

 

# Lupus Incomitatus 2012-01-12 11:35

Camerooned and Millideid united to thwart Scotland.

It just gets better and better.

Scotland Five, United Toffs nil

 

 

# uilleam_beag 2012-01-12 11:38

Really enjoying the motion debate in Holyrood at the moment. Mark McDonald just put in a decent contribution, describing Moore's flip-flopping over the referendum as "constitutional hokey-cokey".

 

 

# Robert Louis 2012-01-12 11:44

I really like that phrase 'constitutional hokey cokey'.

It kind of sums the unionists up.

 

 

# Keep UTG 2012-01-12 11:48

www.scottish.parliament.uk/

 

 

# Mad Jock McMad 2012-01-12 11:38

In simple terms all Westminster is left with is throwing its toys out the pram which it is currently doing with its increasing utterances along the lines of 'its no fair', 'no goanna tae dae that' or 'we're goan tae tak oor ba awa'.

Across the Independent and Guardian threads more and more posters are starting to smell Westminster's fear and focus on its insularity and self serving nature.

The rabid anti-Scots posts are now receiving opprobrium from more and more English posters. Most of the pro-independence posters are making the definition between the people of England, the louts at Westminster and this is clearly striking a chord.

Westminster is now far behind the electorate on this issue and with its tame media, increasingly looking strident, desperate and out of sorts.

 

 

# Wee-Scamp 2012-01-12 11:44

As fellow posters will know BP recently announced the development of a major oil field west of Shetland which will require two platforms to be built.

Now one would think that being within the UK Sector of the N Sea that the UK including Scotland would be bidding for this work.

Sadly one platform build has been awarded to S Korea and the other is going to a small independent country on the other side of the N Sea namely, Norway. The reason for this is of course that we don't have a platform building facility nor indeed do we build ships of any type for the offshore industry whilst of course Norway does.

Similarly, Scotland doesn't have an offshore drilling company, a seismic exploration company or a company that manufacturers subsea production hardware. Norway does.

That Scotland and indeed the UK was let down badly by the Westminster Govt and the City in terms of developing an indigenous industry is well understood within the oil and gas sector and we are already seeing the same thing happening with the renewables industry.

Scotland - in fact the entire UK - can no longer afford to put up with the behaviour of the financial services sector or the UK Govt - notably the Treasury - who between them have failed to support not just Scottish industry but industry right across the UK.

So much for "broadening the economy". It won't happen. We all know it won't happen yet when Scotland decides its had enough of this situation and wants out the unionists object.

Why? What exactly is the economic case for the union when we all know full well that the chances of it ever becoming the sort of broad based economy we'd all like is absolutely zero!

 

 

# CapnAndy 2012-01-12 12:10

Wee Scamp.
I agree whole heartedly. Couldn't have put that better myself.
The crazy thing is, that many of the people providing essential expertise to Norwegian companies are from the UK.

 

 

# Wee-Scamp 2012-01-12 12:45

I know. I used to run one :-)

 

 

# Thee Forsaken One 2012-01-12 11:45

The behaviour of the past week by the UK Government (and Labour) has made me so frustrated that I've finally joined the SNP.

I've voted for them all my life, but now I feel that I need to officially affiliate myself with them for the time being.

 

 

# uilleam_beag 2012-01-12 12:00

Welcome to the fold, Forsaken One, and the same to all the other new members, and posters/readers on here as well! ; )

I really feel that the momentum is picking up towards a substantial critical mass. Hopefully Cameron, Moore et al keep up their efforts towards the recruitment drive.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 12:00

Welcome to the party! Now your job is to get another recruit. Good luck.

 

 

# Corriedug 2012-01-12 12:46

I signed up yesterday.

I WANT NO PART of this non-democracy called the UK any longer.

I am embarrassed to live in a country where the politics are so far removed from the general populace. Whatever happened to electing representatives of the people?

 

 

# shackled to a corpse 2012-01-12 12:48

TFS

I did the same just before Christmas. I decided that voting SNP wasnt enough - if I wanted to see change I had to get off my arse and do something about it. I'm now a card carrying member and intend to become active as the referendum campaign gets underway.

Oh, and I've never joined a political party or been active before. But this is just too important to sit back and hope. It reminds me of one of my favourite sayings:

If not you, who?
If not now, when?

 

 

# X_Sticks 2012-01-12 14:41

Well done TFO! Last night Mrs X_Sticks, who has long been a union supporter on the basis of "stronger together" announced to me that she had just joined the SNP too! I was flabberghasted!

Now, anyone know where I can get some tartan flowers?

 

 

# MAcandroid 2012-01-12 18:02

No but buy some white flowers and use tartan spray paint!

 

 

# Independista 2012-01-12 11:48

OT.
Good article in Craig Murray blog, with equally good comments.
English Tory Interference
craigmurray.org.uk/.../...

I know Craig quite well and perhaps helped to persuade him to join the SNP.
As the man who negotiated the international boundaries with the Faeroes and Ireland, he has an invaluable insight on our stolen 3000sq miles of sea off our Scottish coast.

 

 

# Aikenheed 2012-01-12 12:05

Thanks Ind. Very powerful piece. Have archived it
Just watched a little of the Holyrood debate - conclusions? - By no means is the SNP a one man band and IMO Labour missed a trick by not giving Kezia Dugdale Dalek 1's job

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 11:55

If you want a laugh check out the latest Team Scotland line up. :0D

guardian.co.uk/.../...

 

 

# Blanco 2012-01-12 12:49

Kennedy, Darling and Goldie are much better figures to lead the no campaign than Milliband, Cameron or Curran/Lamont. They are out of power so can't be blamed for any of the current Westminster pash and all have a measure of personal respect. I personally think Darling did as well as he could given the office he inherited from Brown, and Kennedy always strikes me as someone I'd happily have a drink with (provided he still drinks these days). Goldie got the sack for keeping the Tories poll ratings flatlining but flatlining will in retrospect be a major achievement for the Tories in Scotland as I am sure Ruth Davidson is about to find out.

However these are all nostalgia figures from the past, well respected, but who risk tarnishing their past reputation if they associate too closely with the no campaign. I think David Cameron will not be able to resist taking a high profile and that will negatively affect all associated with the no campaign. Mind you perhaps that is Cameron's plan all along. Read this piece from the Caledonian Mercury to get a possible insight into Cameron's thinking:

.../i-for-one-welcome-the-intervention-of-our-westminster-overlords

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 13:23

He makes a good point, but an unlikely one. Cicero or not his only gain would be politically. What he has to lose is far greater, namely his means of underwriting UK debt, which is running at 1.4 or 1.7 Trll at the moment? That's a small gain for a big loss. Also he would/will be seen as the PM who presided of the break up of the UK. He'd be willing to lose a lot just to be PM forevermore of Londonshire and the SE? I'm sure DC will see political gain as we go our own way, but I'm also sure his first choice would be to retain the tartan piggy bank.

Mr Darling is only the very recent past and while he may have disagreed with Brown and Blair, he quite conspicuously did nothing about it and kept taking the wage packet till they were booted out whereby he instantly hit the book writing trail. I have a sneaking respect for both Charlie and Auntie Bella, but they are who they are and they won't change their empire ideal any more than DC. I had hoped they would steer clear of this because it will get noisy and dirty in the next couple of years. IMHO they should have taken up the commentators chairs which the media will be handing out soon enough and stayed away from the carnage about to hit.

 

 

# FREEDOM1 2012-01-12 16:34

Was it true that Darling flipped his house four times?? If it is true can you trust a man like that?

 

 

# Alba4ever 2012-01-12 11:57

Well done Thee Forsaken One, even if your membership of the SNP is only "for the time being" !

As I've mentioned on an other thread, you don't have to live in Scotland to become a member of the SNP and, obviously, every new member plus the additional membership fee income helps the cause.

Let's hit that 40,000 membership target in 2012.

 

 

# Alba4Eva 2012-01-12 12:55

I couldn't agree more with all you say, but I hope our forum names do not get confused with each other?

 

 

# Alba4ever 2012-01-12 14:46

Quoting Alba4Eva:

I couldn't agree more with all you say, but I hope our forum names do not get confused with each other?

I'm sure there's no confusion, but - if there is - perhaps we could ask that nice Mr Cameron to sort out whether Alba4Eva (who no doubt lives in Scotland) has precedence over this England-based SNP member. We could always ask Alex to put another question on the referendum ballot paper!

 

 

# Alba4Eva 2012-01-12 14:57

I'm more than sure it's not a question of precedence, as opposed to the equal rights of all to individuality.

However, this SNP member would now conclude that further confusion is highly unlikely. *;o)

 

 

# Thee Forsaken One 2012-01-12 15:44

Quoting Alba4ever:

Well done Thee Forsaken One, even if your membership of the SNP is only "for the time being"!

Well I'm not the most comfortable with joining a political party but I feel that at this critical point in time, all hands are needed.

 

 

# RJBH 2012-01-12 12:01

telegraph.co.uk/.../...

I think the above from the Telegraph shows just how desperate the unionist are.. It reveals just how fragile, vain and insecure the Westminster bullies of yeatserday really are.

 

 

# uilleam_beag 2012-01-12 12:08

Aye, I read that before and - having watched the session it purportedly describes - could hardly believe my eyes. The SNP members were far from the worst offenders for shouting and jeering (thought that was a much-loved Westminster tradition, anyway); Angus Robertson had to attempt three times afore he was able to make his question heard above the rabble!

 

 

# hiorta 2012-01-12 12:08

Isn't it only just and decent that before Westminster can contemplate interfering in Scottish affairs, they must achieve a clear 40 per cent approval from the Scottish electorate?

 

 

# uilleam_beag 2012-01-12 12:09

Haha, nice one.

 

 

# snowthistle 2012-01-12 12:50

lol, can I use that one?

 

 

# hiorta 2012-01-12 19:11

Of Course, snow thistle

 

 

# rhymer 2012-01-12 12:11

"Team Scotland" ?
I wonder what position Bela plays in ?
No tartan army following this lot. More like "never were" than "has beens".

 

 

# Edna Caine 2012-01-12 22:14

Bella Goldie vs. Bella Caledonia?

Nae chance!

 

 

# AstroJuan 2012-01-12 12:13

O/T Scotland's Future debate - Sarah Boyack seems to be advocating a single question referendum with a choice between YES and... YES! Yes to Independence or Yes to further devolution. Wouldn't that make the question a little bit confusing?

 

 

# Robert Louis 2012-01-12 12:26

Indeed, that is what she actually said.

Labour want a YES/YES vote. The choice being YES to independence or YES to more powers.

Did she mean to say that???

 

 

# AstroJuan 2012-01-12 12:39

Good show from Mr Swinney.

Patricia Ferguson (Maryhill and Springburn) now waxing lyrical about the needs of the Scottish people. She clearly knows all about looking after the needs of her constituents, given the high levels of poverty, particularly child poverty, in her constituency. What is it she's doing so right? \end{sarcasm}

 

 

# Alba4Eva 2012-01-12 13:53

This comment highlights a previous post I made, where I pointed out that the most obvious question over the isssue, is what will voting 'No' actually mean?

Does it mean "No further powers"

Does it mean "An end to devolution as a process"

Does it mean "Further powers to be devolved"

If so; "What further powers?"


The unionists cannot keep saying that they have a positive vision of a Scotland remaining within the UK, without actually saying what that vision is... and as such allowing the Scottish people their democratic say on whatever these proposals may be.

The Scottish people cannot be asked to vote "Yes for Independence" or "No for something else - pot luck"

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 18:27

That's a good point "What does a NO vote mean". The unionists have never explained it!

 

 

# Clarinda 2012-01-12 12:19

We do know that a camel or this latest chimeric product of political procreation the 'Camil' - is supposed to be a horse designed by committee.

 

 

# SaltireAboveAll 2012-01-12 12:25

'For where the very safety of the country depends upon the resolution to be taken, no considerations of justice or injustice, humanity or cruelty, nor of glory or of shame, should be allowed to prevail. But putting all other considerations aside, the only question should be, What course will save the life and liberty of the country?' --

Machiavelli

 

 

# bagonails 2012-01-12 12:33

From Wikipedia
Ed,s auld man says
He wrote in his diary shortly after arriving in England:

The Englishman is a rabid nationalist. They are perhaps the most nationalist people in the world...When you hear the English talk of this war you sometimes almost want them to lose it to show them how things are. They have the greatest contempt for the continent in general and for the French in particular...England first. This slogan is taken for granted by the English people as a whole
their auld man wisnae to keen oan the labour party.

 

 

# mato21 2012-01-12 17:24

He doesn't sound too keen on England either

 

 

# rhymer 2012-01-12 12:37

Funny article by some english chap on "labour hame".
he says "we shouldn't leave as England bought us fair and square". Yup he actually said that and labour hame positioned it as their main article.
They REALLY do not understand Scotland.

 

 

# Taldor83 2012-01-12 12:41

Off topic but here's a pic from The Independant today...

tinyurl.com/7jcd5tf

 

 

# shackled to a corpse 2012-01-12 12:50

ROFLMAO!

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 13:26

OFFS! That's absolutely brilliant! :0D

 

 

# Auld Bob 2012-01-12 12:43

I hope this comment gets through as I an recognized and logged in but have not seen any of my posts published.

There are only two rock solid facts that need to be stated.
Since the, "Declaration of Arbroath", The People of Scotland have been sovereign and the monarch has not. Hence the monarch is King/Queen of Scots but King/Queen of England. Furthermore, as Wales was an English principality at the time of the Treaty Of Union and all Ireland was already under the English crown, they did not figure in signing the Treaty Of Union. Thus there are only two signatories to the Treaty Of Union.
So actually the signatory for England signed on behalf of the English sovereign. That sovereignty had passed to the English parliament but the Scottish soverenty remained with the peoples elected representatives in the Scottish Parliament.

Proof that the Scots people remain sovereign to this day is reflected in the independent Scots law. That is why there is no English type of Trespass law in Scotland and not even Queen Elizabeth could prevent the people from access to paths across her Balmoral Estate. We have the right to roam as we, the people, are sovereign. Further evidence is that, in Scotland, no one can clamp a vehicle parked on private land or they risk being arrested and charged with, "Demanding money with menace".

As both the Scottish and English legal sysyem have accepted this fact then there is no way that Cameron can claim either English or UK law can rule out the right of the sovereign people of Scotland's parliamentary representatives to hold a referendum on behalf of the sovereign people of Scotland.

 

 

# the wallace 2012-01-12 12:44

Our unionists enemys are in disaray,reason.They stand for lies,and fear and subjugation they have hung ike a big black malevolant presence over scotland for 700 houndred years.FREEDOM well that is the light that more and more scots like moths are starting to head for,and which they will not stop until they reach their goal,because the light of FREEDOM can not be extinguished.

 

 

# jim288 2012-01-12 12:46

I have been following Newsnet for several months and enjoying the alternative to the mainstream media particularly the BBC. Since the attempt by the Westminster parliament to seize control and impose conditions on the independence referendum earlier this week I have joined the SNP, registered on the BBC to be able to comment on blogs etc and registered for Newsnet.

I'm sure this week's intervention, an opening skirmish, will have galvanised many others like me.

I intend to spend as much time as I can correcting the wrong thinking apparent on many of the comments on BBC blogs such as the idea that the rest of the UK should vote in a referendum on Scotland's independence.

Glad to join you.

 

 

# mato21 2012-01-12 12:47

Todays Offering

Stronger together, weaker apart
This spews oot o' their mooth,like a ne'er ending fart
Noo jined at the hip we've got Labour and Tory
And this is jist the stert o' the story
We've got Ruthie and Johann,(noo whar has she gaun?)
Is she off looking for Gordy,tae haud oan tae her haun
A son o' the manse, wha pauchled an troughed
An error he claimed, trust that ye'll trust ocht
But back tae oor gals, the unlikely chancers
Haudin' oan tae each ither as they practice the Lancers
For the maisters in London are calling the tune
An like pups they'll roll over, staun up or sit doon
Depending oan orders that come
fae the sooth
Maybe they'll speak or maybe they'll jist shut their mooth
The voters will no be chuffed wi this news
Tae sign up wi the Nats lets hope they form queues
For the Doolie o' Thatcher still hings in the air
In the west o' the country wha suffered their share
An it's startin again for Westminster are saying
We'll mak the rules, but you'll dae the paying
Tae sell her soul tae the Deil noo that wis some feat
In less than a month fae takin her seat
She's managed tae turn the Labour tae Tories
We're jist at the stert,there will be mair o' these stories

 

 

# J Wil 2012-01-12 12:54

I have similar thoughts to many above.

That Scottish Government is being told
that it has no rights to do anything without permission from the UK government, let alone the ability to find out what its people thinks through a referendum.

This must surely be against our human rights and what any fair minded person would expect.

The Unionists in Scotland should think again. They are throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this single issue and it will come back to haunt them.

 

 

# Barbazenzero 2012-01-12 13:30

Spot on.

The Scottish Review have a good article on this in "An open letter to David Cameron telling him why he is mistaken" - www.scottishreview.net/.../ - concentrating on the Claim of Right.

 

 

# Jimbo 2012-01-12 14:31

Yes, I read this, I doubt if Cameron will though.

I wonder if Kenneth Roy would consent to having it published here?

 

 

# Angus 2012-01-12 13:17

Only one word for Westminster and their media, BULLYS.

 

 

# Jimbo 2012-01-12 15:57

Classic!!!

This reply was meant for Hirta's post.

 

 

# Hirta 2012-01-12 13:25

i6.photobucket.com/.../...

 

 

# westie7 2012-01-12 13:29

Pure Quality, Who's got copyright cos that really needs to go on my facebook?

 

 

# Barbazenzero 2012-01-12 13:39

Presumably the Indy. Just realised it's the same pic as the Indy pic above.

 

 

# Barbazenzero 2012-01-12 13:35

You should put a health warning on that!

Ensure no liquids near keyboard before clicking on the link.

 

 

# gregalach 2012-01-12 14:14

ROTFLMAO,Thanks for this link, the one above didnt work - pure dead brilliant!!
I've printed it out and will be framing it to hang for posterity.

 

 

# Training Day 2012-01-12 13:49

Slightly O/T but check this out on Labour Hame:

www.labourhame.com/.../2788

Good to see Labour's blue sky thinkers in action.

This really is all they have to offer.

 

 

# pa_broon74 2012-01-12 13:56

There's 4 minutes of my life I won't get back.

;-)

 

 

# shackled to a corpse 2012-01-12 13:57

Where is the debate they have all been asking for since Tuesday? Where is the positive case for the Union? If anyone is trying to trick the people of Scotland this article suggests it is the Labour Party.

 

 

# west_lothian_questioner 2012-01-12 14:15

Incredible! The poor laddie is actually touting FOR negative campaigning and doesn't even try to hide it with warm fuzzy wording. Was he asleep last spring when we rejected that kind of nonsense in no uncertain fashion?

I'd say.. go for it laddie.. we know how it worked last time out even if you and your compadres in the coalition of dependence have managed to forget

 

 

# Alba4ever 2012-01-12 14:48

Quoting Training Day:

Slightly O/T but check this out on Labour Hame:

www.labourhame.com/.../2788

Good to see Labour's blue sky thinkers in action.

This really is all they have to offer.

Incredible - and this is the first post on Labour Hame since last Thursday. Young Stewart should stick to the day job!

 

 

# shackled to a corpse 2012-01-12 14:53

This is his day job - he works for a Labour MSP.

 

 

# Jimmy The Pict 2012-01-12 16:17

They must use the same thinkers as the Cons, Ruth Davidson rambling on about a Separation Referendum.

 

 

# Holebender 2012-01-12 20:12

Is that title for real? What a gift; Labour, the dependence party!

 

 

# Tom Pullings 2012-01-12 14:17

The Mainstream Meeja may be the least of our worries. I just read the wee bit about how Quebec turned to a no vote in the face of economic troubles. Now those troubles can be engineered and with Cabbage Patch Cameron backed by his bottom buddies in the City, you can be sure that the financial rumour mill will be going full steam ahead to derail our independence, (sorry for the mixed metaphors). Look up 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' to see the frightening reality about how bullies like the US and UK governments always get their own way in the world.
Saor Alba!

 

 

# clootie 2012-01-12 15:19

Tom,

I fully agree that they will do all they can to prevent any attempt to form a fair society.
The Americans at the start of their life had a chance but the "federal bank" ensured this was a short lived experience.

Although difficult we have to draw a line in the sand somewhere!

 

 

# shackled to a corpse 2012-01-12 15:00

Another positive case for the union:

dailymail.co.uk/.../...

 

 

# cynicalHighlander 2012-01-12 15:03

BBC Pacific Quay bias update alert.

BBC Scotland blogs: bbc.co.uk/.../...

Quote:

All looking good for me being on this week's programme. Recording is tomorrow so please comment on the latest ammunition you may have in your keeping. Will be interesting to see if anyone from Pacific Quay shows up to defend their decision and position.

Edit: I am just the messenger to avoid confusion.

 

 

# X_Sticks 2012-01-12 16:10

Hi CH,

My battle with the beeb goes on, I have my MSP on the case, but no response from Daniel Maxwell. She (my MSP) did speak to a beeb representative at Holyrood, and was told by them that the reasons for stopping comments was:
"Apparently the decision was taken following a recent legal action where the owner of another blog was successfully sued over the content of another individual’s comment on their site. A significant number of comments were being posted to Brian’s blog but not making it out of moderation which were of a pretty vile nature, but there were others that while more moderate in tone were potentially actionable. Because the moderators of the blog do not have the legal expertise to be confident about whether a comment falls into that category and the time and expense of hiring somebody who does for such an active blog would be considerable, the decision was apparently taken to prevent any future legal liability."

This is at odds to Daniel Maxwell and the ACS responses, I'm sure you know the DM response, but her is the ACS response:

Your recent correspondence, noting your concerns about the decision to close the BBC Scotland online correspondent pages of Political Editor Brian Taylor and Business Editor Douglas Fraser, has been passed to me for response.


The decision was taken on editorial grounds and with the full intent of allowing BBC Scotland greater flexibility in the management of its online news pages and resources. Consequently I’m afraid we do not agree with your assessment that the decision was arbitrary, undemocratic, discriminatory or that it constitutes censorship.


The correspondent pages will, on occasions, be opened for comment; this will allow us better to utilise our resources and respond to particular stories in a way that more closely links with audience needs and interests.


The direction of development that we envisage will take us increasingly towards the regular provision of more live pages, such as, for example, our approach to online coverage of the weather story on Thursday 8 December - at bbc.co.uk/.../... - where such pages offer a comment facility.


This story also serves to highlight the rationale of such focus, where the clear audience need is reflected in the fact that 2.5million unique users came to the site, in one day, to access this information and to interact with it - that is more than we would normally receive during an average week and provides a clear link between audience need and, for BBC Scotland, appropriate resource utilisation. We envisage that we will continue to develop this approach to enable our audiences to interact with us in various ways, including via social media, text, email and so on.


I am sorry that you do not agree with our decision to reduce the number of occasions on which comments to the two correspondent pages can be offered, but we do hope that the decision will result in a better service to Licence payers in Scotland.


Should you wish to pursue this complaint further, you may wish to contact the BBC Trust. The Trust can be contacted at: BBC Trust, 180 Great Portland Street, London W1W 5QZ or you can e-mail them at: trust.enquiriesbbc.co.uk

-------------
I await the response from DM via my MSP before going on to the Trust. I intend to pursue this all the way as it is pure discrimination.

Sorry this is so long, and I hope it helps. Will continue to keep NNS up to date as things develop. Good luck with the POV!

 

 

# cynicalHighlander 2012-01-12 16:29

Quote:

Good luck with the POV!

Argh! its not me as I am just a messenger I'll put an edit in my post above. Good luck with your dogged endeavours.

 

 

# A_Scottish_Voice 2012-01-12 18:14

If that is the real reason that the comments were stopped then I do not understand why that would not apply to the English blogs given the amount of viscous and potential racist comments many of the posters have direct at Scotland and the people of Scotland.

I believe the real reason for removing the comments on the Scottish blogs is no more that a blatant attempt to suppress Scottish opinion while allowing the BBC to fashion news and events with their own personal touch knowing they cannot be easily challenged.

I would also like to thank you and everyone else for all the hard work and effort you put in for the benefit of us all.

 

 

# J Wil 2012-01-12 15:04

Apsrt from the fact that an SNP spokes person said yesterday that the Electoral Commission are not politically neutral, both Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmonfd are not prepared to say this openly and we will now have to wait to see what the SG's consultation document says in 2 weeks time. There is room however for someone to state who the members of the EC are and what their political affiliations, past and present, are so that it can be openly discussed in the media. It is far too important a subject to just accept what the Coalition are trying to foist on Scotland.

 

 

# Jim1320 2012-01-12 15:05

Flashman and the Anodyne Adenoid

What a combination!

 

 

# proudscot 2012-01-12 18:32

Quoting Jim1320:

Flashman and the Anodyne Adenoid

What a combination!

Brilliant! They're the Commons version of the Forsyth/Foulkes Ugly Sisters act in the Vermin In Ermine Lair.

 

 

# J Wil 2012-01-12 15:18

About 5 minutes into FMQs we lost the sound and picture transmission on our TV. We are supplied by Virgin Media. It looked like an attempt to stop people hearing the proceedings in parliament, as the signal was restored half an hour later, but it could have been an arbitrary failure.

Has anyone had a similar experience?

My initial reaction is to terminate my contract with Virgin Media.

 

 

# rhymer 2012-01-12 18:08

Quoting J Wil:

About 5 minutes into FMQs we lost the sound and picture transmission on our TV. We are supplied by Virgin Media. It looked like an attempt to stop people hearing the proceedings in parliament, as the signal was restored half an hour later, but it could have been an arbitrary failure.

Has anyone had a similar experience?

My initial reaction is to terminate my contract with Virgin Media.

I had no problemswith Virginmedia whilw watching FMQs

 

 

# Teri 2012-01-12 15:26

When Cameron keeps saying 'We're all in this together' I dint realise he was referring to the CoLaDem alliance. There will be no need for any further General Elections now. This, they call Democracy. It's another reason we want out.

As for their positive statements why we should remain part of the Union, so far we have had;

We're stronger together

The longest and most successful partnership in the world

The Queen

The BBC

The Olympics

The NHS?????? (Miliband says, with a nodding Maggie Curran agreeing)

Our shared history and culture

Defence

Who are they kidding. If this is their defence of the Union, they might as well sign on the dotted line now.

 

 

# Jim1320 2012-01-12 15:53

Utterly bizarre - is the barrel that empty?

We have our own NHS

Queenie would still be Queenie

We haven't got the Olympics, London has

and I'd rather not invade any more countries no matter how desperate Ed is to do so.

 

 

# hiorta 2012-01-12 19:18

""The longest and most successful partnership in the world"" - A Unionist.

Their problem is that they saw it as a conquest - a master/ servant partnership.
No bloody way, Cecil.

 

 

# sneckedagain 2012-01-12 15:36

Training day

"We must get information to every household in Scotland direct. The briefing the SNP have prepared for members for the independence roadshows is a start, but a form of this MUST be delivered to every person in Scotland.. and very soon!"

An eight page tabloid newspaper can be produced for about 6p. It can be posted to every home inany constituency at a productiona and posting combined cost of about 11p.
In my constituency we have done this 9 times withadverts and donations covering most and sometimes all of the cost.

An internet radio can be set up for a little more that £2000. This broadcasts to anybody on broadband anywhere in the world without any reception problems whatsoever

 

 

# Jim1320 2012-01-12 15:57

I agree that information is vital but not overkill or people will turn off. The key thing is to kill the lies (and God are there some whoppers out there) stone dead with simple clear facts that everyone can understand.

 

 

# bigbuachaille 2012-01-12 16:37

I agree with you Sneckedagain. A tabloid style 'newspaper' which concentrates on clear, concise explanation of the facts and which outlines all the benefits of independence is a must in order to reach uncommitted voters. There are a lot of people out there who will vote against independence simply on the basis of personalities. This is unfortunately where we are, and a lot of people think it is quite normal. However, this can be turned to our advantage and a tabloid style newspaper which includes a focus on independence-minded 'personalities' would bring significant rewards amongst this crucial sector of the electorate. I am committed, like many others, and I am sure that the kind of academic presentation of the facts which I received by email from the party this week would not make any headway into getting the message over to habitual tabloid readers. The medium is the message. Last year's election campaign which made excellent use of 'personalities' who support independence was a significant success.
I agree also that the time is NOW for this initiative. The Unionists, now in apparent alliance against Scotland, can be held up as obstructors of progress and of positive politics.

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-12 20:37

The SI and Liberate are a good start but its one paper competing against mainstream rags. The more independence titles you can get out there the better. I've been in the print biz for 20yrs and its no easy task to get people to pick up a new title. Your best option is a free sheet on a postal delivery probably selectively targeted by area over the period of the next two years. This will curb excessive costs and keep your print runs managable. As news of the sheet spreads you will gain a certain amount of forward advertising which will help you on your way. But most importantly get you sheets advertising arranged well ahead of the game. Lists of SG backed businesses appear on here from time to time, including some big names. Maybe they could be approached to contribute ads?

Its all possible with a little bit of thought at a reasonable budget.

 

 

# sneckedagain 2012-01-12 15:39

O/T

Labour Hame has wakened up and contributed to this great debate with a piece which is about as negative as it is risible.
we have nothing to worry about from Scottish Labour.

 

 

# scottish_skier 2012-01-12 15:57

I've just made a wee comment in response. Doubt it will get posted though....

 

 

# shackled to a corpse 2012-01-12 16:08

As an aside, taking those statistics at face value it would appear that if a political party can be accused of having an obsession with the constitution it isnt the SNP!

 

 

# rhymer 2012-01-12 18:10

Quoting scottish_skier:

I've just made a wee comment in response. Doubt it will get posted though....

They posted my comment
(I used an alias)

 

 

# Angus 2012-01-12 16:28

Quoting sneckedagain:

O/T

Labour Hame has wakened up and contributed to this great debate with a piece which is about as negative as it is risible.
we have nothing to worry about from Scottish Labour.

Check this out + the comments are great crack www.labourhame.com/.../2754

 

 

# cokynutjoe 2012-01-12 18:08

Thanks Angus, couldn't agree more with Duncan MacNiven.

 

 

# EdinScot 2012-01-12 15:41

What an odious sight to see Cameron and Ed Milliband teaming up as a double act in their panic stricken pursuit to thwart the democratic rights of people to see their country become a normal independent nation. The day is coming closer when the international spotlight will shine right through their hypocrisy.

It would be great to see a video or pic of their facial features turning into each others like the one of Gordon Brown turning into Thatcher. This would get the message out to the dont knows and the Labour voters who will surely be disillusioned with their party disgracefully siding with the Tories against Scotland. That message is the equivilant of a thousand words, its a Godsend and could help totally collapse the Unionist parties votes. We must take advantage of the open goals and make sure we score every time.

 

 

# mountaincadre 2012-01-12 16:12

Edinscot in the last 24 hours i have joined the party,"S.N.P." and had a rather interesting conversation with 2 people who by any standard would be called," Die hard Labour Supporters" both of these people spoke with such unadulterated venom,such utter contempt that to be honest i was quite taken aback as i know them well and have never even heard them swearing before. The object of there disdain? the Labour Party.

 

 

# EdinScot 2012-01-12 16:53

Quoting mountaincadre:

Edinscot in the last 24 hours i have joined the party,"S.N.P." and had a rather interesting conversation with 2 people who by any standard would be called," Die hard Labour Supporters" both of these people spoke with such unadulterated venom,such utter contempt that to be honest i was quite taken aback as i know them well and have never even heard them swearing before. The object of there disdain? the Labour Party.

_______________ _______________ _________

This could be one of 'the' pivotal moments in the whole campaign, the sight of the Tory and Labour parties standing side by side supporting one another as they pit theirselves against Scottish independence. The Labour supporters in some cases have been duped and lied to some for almost a lifetime. No wonder theyre angry! Their anger is understandable. Its time to put that anger to good use and broadcast this new Tory/Labour pact to the masses. That will undo their stitch up of a Union. Revenge is best served frozen eh mountaincadre.

Now Youve got me seriously considering joining the SNP as one of their members...I work so not got huge amount of time to spare but would help where and when i could.

 

 

# nottooweeorstupid 2012-01-12 17:27

EdinScot, even if you've got no time to spare, your membership will count. Go for it! I have never been a member of a political party until last year, when I realised that it was the only way to show my contempt for all the scaremongers - it was the alleged 'Nazi' Christmas card that did it for me! A strong membership helps make a strong party, and sends a signal to others who may be 'seriously considering.' Come on in, it doesn't hurt at all!

 

 

# creag an tuirc 2012-01-12 16:23

The difference between a unionist and a nationlist:

If the unionists win the NO vote there will be smug smiles.

If the nationalists win the YES vote there will be genuine tears of joy.

Saor Alba

 

 

# Alba4Eva 2012-01-12 17:04

If the unionist win the 'No' vote, it will be the end of Scotland moving forward.

If the Nationalists win the 'Yes' vote, it will be the start of Scotland moving forward.

 

 

# Soixante-neuf 2012-01-12 17:30

Quoting creag an tuirc:

If the unionists win the NO vote there will be smug smiles.

If the nationalists win the YES vote there will be genuine tears of joy.

That is an extremely powerful image. If people actually thought about what their own reaction would be, and the general reaction both in Scotland and abroad, to a yes or a no victory, it might concentrate the mind.

People who voted no in 1979, did they later regret that? I suspect so.

 

 

# Angus 2012-01-12 16:29

Quoting mountaincadre:

Edinscot in the last 24 hours i have joined the party,"S.N.P." and had a rather interesting conversation with 2 people who by any standard would be called," Die hard Labour Supporters" both of these people spoke with such unadulterated venom,such utter contempt that to be honest i was quite taken aback as i know them well and have never even heard them swearing before. The object of there disdain? the Labour Party.

Welcome Mountaincadre, great that you joined us.
Have a look at Labour hame site if you want a laugh. The last blog by Mr Duncan Hothersall reveals a lot about the state of the Labour party, the comments are very entertaining too and really the blog is about a thick as the gravy train that the party heirarchy is clinging to. I personally think the venom is driven from above, they are under threat of being voted off the gravy train.
www.labourhame.com/.../2754

 

 

# raisethegame 2012-01-12 16:39

Lesley Riddoch nails it in the Huffington Post:
huffingtonpost.co.uk/.../...

 

 

# balbeggie 2012-01-12 17:18

liked the comment from Mark

'Excellent article Lesley, unfortunat­ely relatively few of the commentato­rs will actually make much in the way of reference to it, preferring instead to spew out their own little bit of Daily Mail infused bile.

Every point you make about the scaremonge­ring can be backed up with hard facts, yet your facts will be twisted, distorted, partially reported or taken out of context. By the end of today this thread will be full of dribbling comments about: Porridge, whisky, shortbread­, Braveheart­, Ginger, Scotch, Jock, tartan, Loch Ness, subsidy junkies, Shetland's oil, England's Oil, Darien, 'never was a country', Celts, Picts, 'Stronger together weaker apart' , Albania, the Euro, EU, Brussels, chips, chips on shoulders, Banks, 'we bailed them out', Scottish MPs, West Lothian Question, Anglophobi­a, Bigotry, Celtic-Ran­gers, Iceland, Ireland, Brown, Darling, Blair, Thatcher and every other time worn ill thought out cliché you would take care to avoid treading in.

'The reality is, that there will be a referendum put to the people in Scotland who are registered on the electoral roll in Autumn 2014 and Scotland will with similar numbers as voted in this year’s Holyrood election return Scotland to its natural state of Independen­ce.'

 

 

# chicmac 2012-01-12 16:44

I would appreciate it if, when describing pro-independence Scots, the term 'nationalists' with a small 'n' is used.
The other word 'Nationalists' with a capital 'N' applies to the likes of BritNats who are quite a different beastie.

If I might suggest two Chictionary definitions to illustrate the difference:

(1) 'Nationalist': One who fundamentally believes in the innate superiority of their nation and culture. As such, they believe that those unfortunate enough not to share their national identity and culture are to be pitied and, if possible, corrected. This last requirement may require direct interjection and thus imperialist adventuring can become a 'moral duty'. Of course, to pay for this process, the natives of the nation undergoing correction will have to tender resource or work force. In extreme cases, where the native obdurately refuses to be 'corrected' some degree of extermination might be contemplated, especially by those Nationalists who believe that there is an underlying genetic basis to their superiority.
The ultimate dream of the Nationalist is one World nation and culture (i.e. THEIRS).

(2) 'nationalist': One whose concept of national identities and intrinsic worth thereof, is fundamentally egalitarian. They are thus totally against the concept of imperialism and in fact want to see as many different national identities and cultures in the World, existing and developing on an egalitarian basis, as possible. They do not believe that there is any kind of genetic background requirement for someone to become a full and functioning member of their nation/culture or any others. It therefore goes without saying that nationalists have no imperialistic ambitions whatsoever and indeed will support opposition to imperialism wherever it exists.


It is, to me, a great shame that the same word is used to mean two entirely different things. Things which are largely opposite in meaning.

However, given that what we have is what we have, I suggest the above convention re 'N' and 'n',is adopted so that some indication of meaning is available.

 

 

# Alba4Eva 2012-01-12 17:13

No one in Scotland (even the arch-unionists) honestly believes that the SNP brand of nationalism can in any way or means be compared to say; the Nazis form of Nationalism.

I hear what you say, but I don't think there is too much to be overly concerned about.

 

 

# Angus 2012-01-12 17:03

Aye, agreed with that Chicmac, like I say to people, there are 2 types of nationalism, the Domineering, supremist kind, of the Brit Nats and the one of survival of the Scot nats.

 

 

# scottish_skier 2012-01-12 17:16

heraldscotland.com/.../...

Cameron to lead charge of ministers to Scotland
DAVID Cameron is to lead a charge of Westminster Cabinet ministers to Scotland in a fight to save the United Kingdom in what is already being dubbed the Battle for Britain.

This is priceless stuff!

 

 

# scottish_skier 2012-01-12 17:17

"Johann Lamont, the Scottish Labour leader, told The Herald she would be willing to share an anti- independence platform with Mr Cameron, unlike Jim Murphy, the Shadow Defence Secretary."

Excellent!

 

 

# Teri 2012-01-12 19:57

Good God, when elected leader on 17 December she stated there was no way she would share a platform with DC. I take it orders were issued by her boss in London.

 

 

# Clanky 2012-01-12 17:32

Hope the SNP have reinforced their new member joining website. It actually crashed under the weight of new members this week.

(Over 500 new SNP members since Tuesday)

 

 

# Legerwood 2012-01-12 18:45

Quote:

Cameron to lead charge of ministers to Scotland
DAVID Cameron is to lead a charge of Westminster Cabinet ministers to Scotland in a fight to save the United Kingdom in what is already being dubbed the Battle for Britain.

maybe Chris Huhne will be driving them as they speed up the M1.

 

 

# Embradon 2012-01-12 17:30

There is a good open letter to Cameron from Kenyon Wright in the Scottish Review:
www.scottishreview.net/.../

 

 

# raisethegame 2012-01-12 17:39

This certainly worth a listen (it was on about an hour ago : It's a 'Politics Weekly' podcast on The Guardian with Polly Toynbee, Martin Kettle and the SNP's chief whip Stewart Hosie discuss the plans for a referendum on Scottish independence.
guardian.co.uk/.../...

 

 

# creag an tuirc 2012-01-12 19:47

This was a refreshing change. People sitting down having an adult discussion without shouting over each other. It shows me that the Scottish unionist MP's are rattled by their current behavior. Thanks for the link.

 

 

# iReferee 2012-01-12 17:45

I am a little bit concerned by the wording of the First Minister's amendment to the debate in the Parliament today:

"achieve a parliament with the powers and responsibilitie s of independence"

What does this mean? To me it does not say an independent country but a parliament with more powers. Am I reading too much in to this?

 

 

# balbeggie 2012-01-12 17:49

I am fairly relaxed with his amendment. Without an independent Parliament you don't have an independent country.

 

 

# clootie 2012-01-12 20:42

I trust him and the team. This wording would not have been chosen without good reason!

 

 

# D_A_N 2012-01-12 17:53

The BBC must be stopped NOW! I've just watched today's daily politics.

It had 1 member of SNP talk and get constantly interrupted and then 4 anti-independence folk from the media straight afterwards in a row. And that's not even including the two presenters.

We're so outnumbered, for the first time I'm actually starting to worry a little. What can we do to stop this?

I mean. Salmond's a genius, but this is getting dirty and we're not even anywhere near referendum time.

 

 

# pa_broon74 2012-01-12 18:05

Their web site is even worse.

It has to be responsible for much of the nonsense propagated about the ins and outs.

The way the BBC plan their news pieces (with an SNP person speaking on tape then 3 or 4 speaking afterwards in the studio) is definitely unfair. But I think it'll actually look worse for the unionists who'll be seen as 'ganging up' and 'hectoring' and not giving the independence spokesperson a fair time of it.

Apparently Nicola Sturgeon will be on Question Time tonight along with Kelvin McKenzie. I anticipate a few more people moving over to our side during the show.

 

 

# D_A_N 2012-01-12 18:21

let's hope.. but what we should also do is next time Question Time are in Scotland. Lots of folk here should apply to be on the show. To apply you have to write down two questions on the application.. Just write some union loving thing that they'll want to hear and then if any of us get on accuse the BBC. If your question is chosen ignore it, if it's not, sit their patiently with ur hand up.. But it'd have to be a well planned out question to avoid booing reactions etc.. Because people still trust the BBC in general.

 

 

# Clarinda 2012-01-12 18:16

D_A_N 1653 - It wasn't so different before the election in May 2010 and look what happened then and since. It will also be revealing to see this May's local council election results despite the massed prejudice of the MSM.

It appears that the Scottish electorate are now reacting with remarkable scepticism and not a little righteous scoffing at some of the imperialist diatribe spewing from the mouths of many unionists and their lickspittles.

They may refer to as a "charge" on his arrival but what will be the descriptor of his being sent homeward to think again?

 

 

# Clarinda 2012-01-12 18:23

I forgot to add the phrase from the motto of Scotland and the Order of The Thistle
"Nemo me impune lacessit"

 

 

# D_A_N 2012-01-12 18:36

You're right. I've just been reading so much recently I'm going a bit crazy. haha. Might go for a wee jog to clear my mind.

Going to an independence roadshow on Sunday. That should brighten my mood :)

Yeah. Council elections.. Well, being at an SNP council meeting the other day I can tell we shall be well organised and will take Glasgow.

 

 

# Alba4Eva 2012-01-12 19:11

If its in Maryhill, I'll see you there.

 

 

# Teri 2012-01-12 19:59

I'll see you there too.

 

 

# roboftheburnawn 2012-01-12 20:24

I'll see you there too

 

 

# D_A_N 2012-01-12 21:24

yup. That's the one.. see you all there.

 

 

# Alx1 2012-01-12 18:03

Don'y know if this has been said so sorry if I'm repeating.

Saw Glegg behind interviewed on Sky news this morning and he was let off with spouting the usual lies.
He mentioned how would Scotland handled their banks seems that there is a lot.
How are we supposed to have a proper debate if their only argument is to spread lies and fear.

 

 

# govanite 2012-01-12 18:35

Dear blubber, is it a measure of the strength of the SNP case that the BBC feels the need to interview half a dozen unionists for every nationalist they talk to.

 

 

# D_A_N 2012-01-12 18:44

^ this is the question that needs to be asked of David Dimbelby when one of us get on QT.

 

 

# jafurn 2012-01-12 18:38

Maybe O/T but no apology this time..

I am watching the debate on Scotland's Future which I had missed earlier...

watch here if you missed it..

news.bbc.co.uk/.../9674325.stm

The subject of Mr Moore came up ( at about 35 mins in )so I thought I would remind myself of what he had to say about referendum earlier...

Watch Mr Moore and ask yourself
Can this man be trusted?

watch from around 3-35-00 in

scottish.parliament.uk/.../...

 

 

# J Wil 2012-01-12 18:42

Joan McAlpine under attack for calling the Unionists anti-Scottish.

Well they are aren't they?

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 18:48

Scottish sovereignty belongs to the people of Scotland and cannot be given away. The readiness of Labour politicians to congratulate the Westminster Government on attempting to take charge of the referendum is ample evidence that the unionists are anti-Scottish in a very fundamental way. No apology needed, Joan. I think it is Labour that needs to apologise to the people of Scotland who's interests they so willingly give up to Westminster.

 

 

# Robert Louis 2012-01-12 18:58

I wouldn't say all unionists are per se anti Scottish, as to say that is to generalise matters too much.

Having said that when I see Labour politicians cheering on a Tory prime minister who wishes to interfere in the democratic process in Scotland, then I think it is appropriate. It give me the dry boaks.

Labour in Scotland need to have a good long look at themselves. Here they are in 2011, cooing about the way in which they support David Cameron the London Tory prime minister. It is obscene. Instead of LEADING, Labour is just riding on the tails of Eton Toff Cameron's coat.

It is pathetic. Can they not formulate a policy of their own?? ALL the polls which ask indicate the vast majority of Scots do want the Scottish parliament to have REAL NEW substantial powers. It is an easy, easy ticket. Yet in their forelock tugging deference to London, Labour refuse to even contemplate a policy direction which is unique and all their own.

Nick Clegg was rightly described as a 'sheep in sheep's clothing. The same term applies to Milband, and his unionista coterie in Scotland.

 

 

# bramley 2012-01-12 18:55

Reading some of these posts is like listening to football fans talking themselves into hysteria. I'm not a football fan but I remember people getting carried away with themselves at the time of Ally Macleod. Most people couldn't give a damn.

 

 

# Keep UTG 2012-01-12 18:59

So the Labour Party have sided with the party that was prepared (and still is) to cut the benefits of Cancer Sufferers and Young Disabled People

Cameron should be told to sling his hook when he comes North.........http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/16034 Baroness Lister pointed out that 15,000 sick and disabled young people will be affected by the removal of eligibility for ESA. The average cut to their income will be £25 a week.

Lord McKenzie called the government's proposed abolition of the youth condition "spiteful".

Lord Low hit out at the "draconian" nature of the ESA limits being proposed and called on Lib Dems peers (who had been given a non-whipped vote) to "search their consciences" when it came to voting.

On exempting cancer patients, Lord Patel pointed out that the issue was a reduction in savings, not extra funding. His amendment, he said,was not about adding to expenditure but refusing to take £1.3 billion from the most vulnerable.

He declared: "If you are going to rob the poor to pay the rich we have entered a different form of morality", adding that cancer patients are not "not skivers, not benefit cheats".

 

 

# J Wil 2012-01-12 19:14

This is a link to a supposedly exclusive interview by MSN, with Nick Clegg who describes the first Minister as 'slippery'. He should look in the mirror, or ask English students about being slippery.

uk.msn.com/?rd=1

 

 

# Legerwood 2012-01-12 19:36

BBC Reporting Scotland this evening. Johann Lamont reported as saying it was cynical of the FM to name the date of the referendum without asking the other parties!!!!!

This is the same Johann Lamont who has been berating the FM for for weeks to name the date.

When he does she... Oh I cannot be bothered going on with this. You get the picture.

There is a blog on the Daily Telegraph about the Shambles that is the Scottish Labour Party. Worth a read and a comment.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/.../...
Also Iain McWhirter's column in the Herald today was a very reasoned one.

 

 

# Robert Louis 2012-01-12 19:39

I see brian Taylor of the blatantly propagandist BBC, is YET AGAIN telling us all that there will 'need to be negotiations' with the other parties AND the UK Government.

Quite interesting approach, for a supposedly unbiased journalist. Telling us what MUST happen, rather than reporting facts. Serious questions need asked over the blatantly biased BBC coverage over the issue of Scottish independence.

 

 

# J Wil 2012-01-12 20:38

It will be worth listening to Brian's Big [impartial?] Debate tomorrow to hear what other accusations are being thrown.

 

 

# rob4i 2012-01-12 19:43

Yes, that common self-serving Unionist phrase the "THREAT of Independence" used also by the BBC Unionist media, and as one poster earlier questioned "A threat to whom" certainly NOT to Scotland and her people, only to the self-serving duplicitous Scottish Unionists who will lose their jobs and English Unionists in Westminster who will lose the lovely Scottish revenues pouring into the Treasury coffers!!

 

 

# roboftheburnawn 2012-01-12 19:44

With regards Nicola Sturgeon on QT tonight, the unionists have two options

1. Be polite, listen to the arguements and don't gang up on her.

2. Ridicule her, be nasty, be very anti-Scottish.

Either way we win

 

 

# silvermcg 2012-01-12 19:47

I have been reading newsnet for some months now and I have now joined not only this sight but have also joined the snp last night along with my partner.
I have also been speaking to many regarding all the info that is available here.
You may now count another five votes and a willing body in the fight ahead.
My thanks to you all,a very intresting
bunch indeed.

 

 

# Kinghob 2012-01-12 19:49

I see that the bbc scotland (small 's') decided to invent the news, showing a load of shite invented by their own feeble minds and trying to make the weak unionist parties look like they are there to oversee things and keep the referendum 'fair'-although the labourtorylibde ms have an appalling precedence on 'fairness' seeing as how they constantly lie.

The bbc felt compelled to separately cite Joan mcAlpine as having insulted the labourtorylibde ms by telling the truth about them............and that pleasantly plumb bloke the bbc drag on felt obliged to paraphrase any SNP reply in the main while the shout 'opposition' were left to rant away.

I mean it is ok for labour to actually tell lies about say the MRSA stats which the woman Baillie lied about and was much reported by the bbc-but tell the truth and it is wrong.

Being anti Scottish appears to be something the unionists think is a winning formula, telling lies about the Scottish Government is also apparently the way forward.

I detest the bbc.

If the 'opposition' want to know what ordinary Scots think of their pathetic antics then I would tell them anytime they like.

 

 

# cjmjr 2012-01-12 20:11

The Royal Bank Of Scotland is owned by its Share Holders and not by the Scottish Nation.The Uk goverment under Gorden Brown decided to bail the Banks out.Westminster now owns 85% of the Royal Bank Of Scotland. Scotland as a Nation owns 8.6% of that share holding.That is the extent of Scotlands indebtedness.!! Vote For Independence Vote Snp..!!

 

 

# Caledonian Lass 2012-01-13 15:24

Quoting cjmjr:

The Royal Bank Of Scotland is owned by its Share Holders and not by the Scottish Nation.The Uk goverment under Gorden Brown decided to bail the Banks out.Westminster now owns 85% of the Royal Bank Of Scotland. Scotland as a Nation owns 8.6% of that share holding.That is the extent of Scotlands indebtedness.!! Vote For Independence Vote Snp..!!

Hear, Hear, cjmjr. The unionists also seem to think that we'd be entitled to about 8% of revenue from North Sea Oil, too. They obviously don't know a thing about International Law. The public should be made aware of the false figures the unionists quote. As for our share of the National Debt, there is such a thing as odious debt and Trident could go under that heading, i.e. if the debt wasn't contracted by the Scottish people, we're not responsible for it.

Surely now that Labour supporters in Scotland see their party standing shoulder to shoulder with the Tories against Scotland, they'll come to their senses.

 

 

# Taysider 2012-01-12 20:14

O/T but I would urge everyone to look at the Scotland's constitutional future document on the Scotland Office website and take part in the consultation process by answering the questions that are posed. The deadline is Friday 9 March. I suppose it isn't surprising that it is described as "A consultation on facilitating a legal, fair and decisive referendum on whether Scotland should leave the United Kingdom" negative spin not the positive spin of "...on whether Scotland should become an independent country". Later in the year people should be asking Freedom of Information Act questions if the answers to the consultation questions do not seem to be being fully and transparently released.

 

 

# gus1940 2012-01-12 20:24

After all the huffing and puffing and jumping up and down by the Unionists this week we are still anxiously waiting for them to come up with a single good reason why Scotland should remain in The Union of so-called equals.

 

 

# farrochie 2012-01-12 20:30

gus1940
You must have blinked and missed it; see posts above.

According to Ed Milliband yesterday in his grovelling question at PMQ it's:
The NHS - run from Scotland
Defence - Iraq, Trident and 35bn black hole notwithstanding
The BBC - no comment needed

 

 

# TOHILL 2012-01-12 20:38

E.H.
I would like to take the liberty of giving you my mail address to discuss some matters of importance that I believe may be mutually beneficial. I have been asking the NNS team in recent times to make a facility available for those of us who would like to be able to liase more closely, but this has not been forthcoming. I would be obliged if you would contact me bth1888hotmail.com

 

 

# Davy 2012-01-12 20:39

Hello to one and all, I am a new member to both this site and the SNP party (joined yesterday 09.37). My reasons are simple , no-one but the people of Scotland are going to decide my countrys future and thats it.
Did you notice during todays First Minsters question time that their was not a smile on the faces of the labour msp's, compared to the grins on the labour mp's faces during the PM's question time at Westminster when both houses were discussing the referendum. Is it possible that the penny had dropped for the labour MSP's that their great leader down south had just stuffed them by making them into a " CON-LAB-LIBDEM "coalition party. Just a thought ???.
Cheers Davy.

PS. I have tried to post a few replys on the CON-LAB hoose & hame sites, but they dont seem to like my sense of humour, some can give it, but can't take it.

 

 

# roboftheburnawn 2012-01-12 22:21

Welcome aboard Davy

 

 

# Barbazenzero 2012-01-13 00:51

Welcome, and yes I noticed few smiles from Lab MSPs even when La Mont was on her feet and on air.

However, CON-LAB-LIBDEM doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. I suggest that calling them the CONDEM-LABOUR coalition is somewhat more apposite.

 

 

# govanite 2012-01-12 20:42

Let us start openly calling the BBC what it is - the British Broadcasting Corporation. The implication will sink in gradually.

 

 

# EdinScot 2012-01-12 20:50

Aye and they extort money from us to use their vile propaganda against Scotland and its people. Shameless, that they sit there looking us in the eye as they do this feeding us the line we are too wee and too poor when in fact they are the real spongers. And they wonder why we want away from their joke of a democracy. I beleive protests will happen against this organisation, its a matter of when the dam breaks.

 

 

# Edna Caine 2012-01-12 23:35

EdinScot -

It's not just in the news and the political dross that the BBC displays its Unionist bias.

Earlier this week, Monday or Tuesday, I was watching a programme featuring two moderately competent cooks known as "The Hairy Bikers" who were presenting a show called "The Best of British Food", or something similar. [I am a bit of a foody - oh, and a drinky(?) too]. The presenters are a pair of fat people who claim to hail from the North East of England and effect cod "Geordie" accents.

I caught a bit of a comment concerning, I believe, potted shrimps. [Please read with a stereotyped North East England accent] -

"....by appointment to Her Majesty. It makes you proud to call these British Isles home. Let's hope we keep at it for another 300 years".

Way aye, man, that'll be reet!

 

 

# Caadfael 2012-01-13 16:17

Brainwashing/Bulldusting any better?

 

 

# Saltire Groppenslosh 2012-01-12 20:45

O/T
Hello peeps, went on a flying visit to Bristol. Oldham and Bolton over the last two days. The people that I spoke to were very curious and I simply told them "The people in Scotland have discovered that they're actually doing very well and can't understand why the country is doing so badly as a direct consequence and so have decided that they can't afford to give the UK treasury any more money, the simple way to stop doing that is to reinstate Scotland as an independent nation and take control of their own money and resources". Or words to that effect.

Some were happy enough with that and some asked about the liklihood of it happening given that the BBC and westminster are using the 29% in favour of independence and I simply replied that they shouldn't trust anything that comes out of the BBC or westminster. That raised a few smiles. Don't forget, these are the normal English people that don't go on websites and spout anti-Scottish vitriol. I believe that the silent majority are like that and are quite surprised by the turn of events.

Just thought I'd let you know.

 

 

# TOHILL 2012-01-12 21:25

O/T
this message was originally aimed at Electric Hermit, but I guess I am just downright impatient.I would like to take the liberty of giving you all my mail address to hopefully discuss some matters of importance that I believe may be beneficial to all in the long run. I have been asking the NNS team in recent times to make a facility available for those of us who would like to be able to liase more closely, but this has not been forthcoming. I would be obliged if any of my fellow NNS posters would contact me @ bth1888hotmail.com

Thanks !
Tohill.

 

 

# Soixante-neuf 2012-01-13 15:20

Why not join Electric Hermit's referendumdebat e.com blog, and use the private messaging facility?

 

 

# Angus 2012-01-12 21:31

Thanks for that Saltire G.
There is a backlash against the Scots, its a disgrace that the media allow this, almost like war time hysteria.
But like you say there are so many decent English that will not participate or will even back the Scottish, I also have met many that wish us well.

 

 

# Legerwood 2012-01-12 22:04

At some point, hopefully sooner than later, it is going to dawn on people that whatever the result of the referendum we will still be sharing this island and allowing rampant anti-scottish rants will make that difficult especially in the event of a 'No' vote.

In fact people may realise in the light of these ant-Scottish comments that there is no option but to vote 'Yes' because there would be no way we could remain in such a union.

 

 

# cynicalHighlander 2012-01-12 21:42

: telegraph.co.uk/.../...

Quote:

“I think the people of Scotland would lose out in terms of the Scottish economy,” Osborne said. “I don’t think Scotland would be as prosperous as it would be as part of the UK. I think there are businesses that are nervous about investing in Scotland when they don’t know about its constitutional future.”

So it has gone from 'know' to 'think' now.

 

 

# Dunnichen685 2012-01-12 21:45

In the last few days we have had much hysterical ranting from the pro-unionist press. Much anti-scottish bile from the Torygraph (Telegraph), Daily Wail (Mail), Daily Distress (Express) and the Daily Record, Sun et al Even the Morning Star is, for some bizarre reason, advocating keeping the union. All of the Scottish Press appears to be pro-union. If there is a pro-independance scottish newspaper out there someone please tell me as I will start purchasing it right away.
Two and a half years to freedom and the mother of all party's on St Andrews Day 2014.
Saor Alba

 

 

# Macart 2012-01-13 15:40

Google Scots Independent. Here tae help! :0)

 

 

# stonefaction 2012-01-12 23:21

A thought on the 3 v 1 make-up of panels etc on the BBC. As not all SNP voters are for independence, and not all Labour/Conservative/Lib-Dem voters are against independence, the make-up should be one YES v one NO representative. Anything else is clearly biased against Independence, when Independence is not actually a party specific question.

The thing about the businesses nervous about investing in Scotland, I read somebody saying that they had been asked "Should we invest in Scotland?". As Scotland is STILL part of the UK, the answer should be a clear and resounding "YES", otherwise they are discriminating against a part of the UK. It would be interesting to ask how they have answered that question when it has (apparently) been asked.

 

 

# Hamish100 2012-01-13 00:25

BBC Question Time --what a disgrace- as biased a programme and condescending to Scotland as you can get- ably assisted by Douglas Alexander. It should be ade clear that any future programme on this should be 50/50 for or against independence. Dimbledorf sooking up to Paddy Ashdown who quotes bosnia as an example of independence -ridiculous

 

 

# J Wil 2012-01-13 11:48

Question Time is toxic. I do not see what possible advantage there is for the SNP to be on it. They are only invited onto it to be shouted down. It is another manifestation of the bullying British establishment dictating to the Scots. Sick too that they use another Scot to weild the hammer. It would be in keeping with what Salmond has said about Cameron interfering in Scottish matters for the SNP not to pander to them and not to accept any more invitations.

 

 

# rhymer 2012-01-13 17:35

I still think Joan is right - anybody who thinks that somebody else in another country - who we never voted for - should control us and our country's future is definately anti-Scottish.

(Or would self-interest and greed
be a more apt explanation)

 

 

# rhymer 2012-01-18 00:15

Aberdeen is having a referendum on the design of the "gardens".
Do Davie and Ed know they are doing this without asking for their permission ?

 

Refresh comments list
RSS feed for comments to this post.

You must be logged-in in order to post a comment.

JComments