General
Monday, 18 June 2012 06:39
27 Comments
By Martin Kelly 
Labour members of Strathclyde Fire Board have been criticised after banding together in order to block a one million pound contract from going to a Cumnock based company.
Instead of awarding the contract for the procurement of fire engines to Emergency One (UK) Ltd, Labour members instead opted to award the contract to a Surrey based firm.
The SNP has criticised the move by the Labour board members to vote to award the £1m contract for ten 18 tonne bodybuilds to John Dennis Coachbuilders Ltd, who are based in Surrey.
Labour members voted en masse against awarding the Emergency One (UK) Ltd the contract despite the fact that this would guarantee new and sustained employment in the area.
SNP plans to award the contract to Emergency One was defeated by 19 votes to 8, with the vote breaking down on Party lines.
Commenting on the decision, SNP MSP Adam Ingram said:
"It is outrageous that due to the actions of Labour members Cumnock and the surrounding area have lost out on this £1,051,550 contract.
"I am very disappointed that a local company has lost out, particularly since the margin between Emergency One (UK) and the firm in the south of England was less than 3% in the Fire Board’s scoring process.
"Such a minimal difference should have outweighed the obvious gains to be made in community benefits and, indeed, reducing the carbon footprint of appliance and other movements between Scotland and Surrey."
Tenders were received from four firms, with Emergency One being the only Scottish based firm.
The tender process adopted a points scoring system weighted along financial assessment, specification compliance, supply chain and contract management and Corporate and Social responsibilities.
The Surrey based firm obtained a ‘score’ just 3% higher than the Scottish firm, with the other rivals well behind.
Mr Ingram, The MSP for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley, said he would appeal the decision and fight to bring jobs to Scotland.
He added:
"This is a decision I don’t intend to let lie. I am writing to Audit Scotland requesting an investigation into the scoring of the tender bids and the conduct of Labour members of the Fire Board."
Details of the scoring system can be found on page 35 of this document.
Comments
#
2012-06-17 23:13
Absolute disgrace, i suppose its too much to ask that these people be named and shamed for letting this contract go to an English firm at the expense of the Ayrshire workforce.
#
2012-06-17 23:16
I sincerely hope this comes up at FMQs on Thursday. Not that the BBC will report on it.
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2012-06-17 23:34
A deeply disappointing decision. However, before we make a final judgement, I'd like to know the detail of the scoring system.
For example, if the Ayrshire bid scored massively higher on "Corporate and Social responsibilitie s", but very weak on "specification compliance" then the decision may be justifiable.
Adam Ingram's call for an Audit explanation seems the most sensible way to resolve the issue.
For example, if the Ayrshire bid scored massively higher on "Corporate and Social responsibilitie s", but very weak on "specification compliance" then the decision may be justifiable.
Adam Ingram's call for an Audit explanation seems the most sensible way to resolve the issue.
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2012-06-18 22:01
oldnat
Wise words
The caution of wisdom based on the full facts is well advised. I would prefer contracts to Scottish companies but what rules are we working too.
Wise words
The caution of wisdom based on the full facts is well advised. I would prefer contracts to Scottish companies but what rules are we working too.
#
2012-06-18 00:44
I'd be a bit wary of criticizing this also as when you think of fire engines they are generally made by Dennis so this may be just a decision made on past form. Whilst Labour are always harping on about keeping jobs in Scotland I suppose the fire board has to think of their professional reputation as well.
#
2012-06-18 08:23
Dennis may be the name we all grew up with, but, if I remember correctly, Irvine based Fulton & Wylie put some innovative designs on the market some years ago, and it was their name that was emblazoned on much of Strathclyde's fleet.
I know not if there is any connection between F&W of yesterday and Emergecny One today.
I know not if there is any connection between F&W of yesterday and Emergecny One today.
#
2012-06-18 08:29
Quoting ubinworryinmash eep:
Emergency One is a very significant player in the specialist body building market. They have produced fire engines for Scottish services for many years and are very highly regarded. Part of the problem is that Strathclyde can attract value through scale of purchase and the other 7 services can piggy-back onto that price. A concern for next year is that with one service buying purely on price a manufacturer might be vulnerable if they do not win the contract.
There is an argument to be had as to whether "best value" extends beyond the price? Is it the place of a public service to protect local jobs? Probably not if you have a narrow definition of best value. I feel the supply market (in any such specialist product) needs to have multiple suppliers otherwise you can end up at the mercy of the monopoly holder.
The question is how do you balance the needs to save on spending with the wider social and economic consequences of a public bodies activities?
I'd be a bit wary of criticizing this also as when you think of fire engines they are generally made by Dennis so this may be just a decision made on past form. Whilst Labour are always harping on about keeping jobs in Scotland I suppose the fire board has to think of their professional reputation as well.
Emergency One is a very significant player in the specialist body building market. They have produced fire engines for Scottish services for many years and are very highly regarded. Part of the problem is that Strathclyde can attract value through scale of purchase and the other 7 services can piggy-back onto that price. A concern for next year is that with one service buying purely on price a manufacturer might be vulnerable if they do not win the contract.
There is an argument to be had as to whether "best value" extends beyond the price? Is it the place of a public service to protect local jobs? Probably not if you have a narrow definition of best value. I feel the supply market (in any such specialist product) needs to have multiple suppliers otherwise you can end up at the mercy of the monopoly holder.
The question is how do you balance the needs to save on spending with the wider social and economic consequences of a public bodies activities?
#
2012-06-18 08:50
Emergency one have been supplying the Bodywork and coachbuilding to SFB and nearly all the other brigades since 1990/1991. depending on the brigade and the economy we are talking about somewhere between 6 and 10 motors every year. Nowadays the likes of Grampian only buy two new every year!!
The Scottish Brigades have been using Emergency one since Fulton and Wylie disappeared in the late 80s and used English companies Mountain Range, Reliance Mercury, Angloco and Saxon in the interim.
Strathclyde have already used JDC as far back as 2010 for both the traditional pump Appliance and the newer "White Elephant" combined Pump/Aerial machines.
Did anyone raise this back then?
Tayside changed to JDC some years ago too citing the links between JDC and Dundee but continue to use Emergency one also.
DId anyone moan back then?
The Scottish Brigades have been using Emergency one since Fulton and Wylie disappeared in the late 80s and used English companies Mountain Range, Reliance Mercury, Angloco and Saxon in the interim.
Strathclyde have already used JDC as far back as 2010 for both the traditional pump Appliance and the newer "White Elephant" combined Pump/Aerial machines.
Did anyone raise this back then?
Tayside changed to JDC some years ago too citing the links between JDC and Dundee but continue to use Emergency one also.
DId anyone moan back then?
#
2012-06-18 01:19
Emergency One is not some mickey mouse company, have a look at their website www.emergencyone.co.uk/ Customers include the MOD, Grampian, Fife, Hampshire, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire Dorset, Essex, Merseyside and Norfolk fire services to name a few
#
2012-06-18 09:38
A significant point is made in this post; that Emergency One win contracts from south of the border. Trade must always be a two-way street as long as contracts are decided fairly. That keeps the competing companies on their toes ensuring that they tender competitively and with a quality product.
Sounds like a bit of political ,mischief making here, particularly as the Government have just sanctioned the award of a CalMac new-build contract to a German shipyard.
Sounds like a bit of political ,mischief making here, particularly as the Government have just sanctioned the award of a CalMac new-build contract to a German shipyard.
#
2012-06-18 16:44
Since 2005 three Cal Mac ferries have been built in Poland. I believe the reason for the newest ship being built in Germany (or outside of Scotland) is because it's 116m long. Ferguson's, the only ferry boat builder in Scotland, can only build ships up to 105m.
#
2012-06-18 07:00
Yes, have to be very careful here. If the Surrey firm scored the highest, then tendering rules will say it has to be offered to them. Does seem strange that the vote was split along party lines - it really should not be a political process.
#
2012-06-18 07:49
I have to agree with others on this forum . We would not want to become like the hypocritical labour party and their false concerns over the awarding of steel contracts . It is important that the full facts of this contract are checked out before jumping to any conclusions .
#
2012-06-18 11:26
Quoting Silverytay:
Agreed Silverytay. At least in this case, the firm in question actually did tender a bid. In the bogus row raised by Mr.McMahon MSP, backed by Johann Lamont, it was questioned whether Dalzell Steel had actually put in a bid at all, as I recall.
I have to agree with others on this forum . We would not want to become like the hypocritical labour party and their false concerns over the awarding of steel contracts . It is important that the full facts of this contract are checked out before jumping to any conclusions .
Agreed Silverytay. At least in this case, the firm in question actually did tender a bid. In the bogus row raised by Mr.McMahon MSP, backed by Johann Lamont, it was questioned whether Dalzell Steel had actually put in a bid at all, as I recall.
#
2012-06-18 08:37
The issue reminds me of the great hulabaloo generated by Labour about steel being bought from China for the new Forth crossing, even although there is no indigenous steel industry in Scotland that can supply the type of steel required.
#
2012-06-18 13:16
Quoting J Wil:
I was thinking along the same line and wonder what Ken MacKintosh Lab and his cohorts have to say or will it be all very quite from them and BBC.
The issue reminds me of the great hulabaloo generated by Labour about steel being bought from China for the new Forth crossing, even although there is no indigenous steel industry in Scotland that can supply the type of steel required.
I was thinking along the same line and wonder what Ken MacKintosh Lab and his cohorts have to say or will it be all very quite from them and BBC.
#
2012-06-18 08:42
I have been on many evaluation committees for different projects etc. and I have never seen anyone gain 100%. Am I misreading these figures in the evaluation summary table on page 35 of the report mentioned in the article above?
I also see that Emergency One had 97.97% I would like to see the actual scoring grid before commenting further, as I do not understand what method was used to come to such a specific percentage. the other losers also have scores to 2 decimal places. Very odd.
Was the final score of the Surrey firm recalculated to 100% and the other scores proportionally increased according to this calculation? If so, then the actual difference between the two main contenders might have been less than 2%.
To clarify: let us suppose that the Surrey firm had a final score of, say, 92, and Emergency One had 90. Recalculating John Dennis to 100% would require a pro-rata increase of Emergency One by a similar margin (increase) this would correspond to a new calculation of Emergency One to 97.82% Not far off the figures quoted.
More information required, but depending on the evaluation statistical method employed, the 100% score would appear to be a reconfiguration , which in turn means the differences between the bids was even lower.
In passing, I am rather surprised that "Chain supply management" is only valued at 20% of the bids. I would have thought that maintenance for a Fire service vehicle would be better served closer to the home base, assuming all other things are equal. It would seem clear to me that any increase, even a modest one, in this weighting would almost certainly push the Local bid over any other.
Who designed the scoring criteria? As anyone who has been involved in this knows, the scoring 'criteria' can influence the "Objectively based" outcome quite considerably!
I also see that Emergency One had 97.97% I would like to see the actual scoring grid before commenting further, as I do not understand what method was used to come to such a specific percentage. the other losers also have scores to 2 decimal places. Very odd.
Was the final score of the Surrey firm recalculated to 100% and the other scores proportionally increased according to this calculation? If so, then the actual difference between the two main contenders might have been less than 2%.
To clarify: let us suppose that the Surrey firm had a final score of, say, 92, and Emergency One had 90. Recalculating John Dennis to 100% would require a pro-rata increase of Emergency One by a similar margin (increase) this would correspond to a new calculation of Emergency One to 97.82% Not far off the figures quoted.
More information required, but depending on the evaluation statistical method employed, the 100% score would appear to be a reconfiguration , which in turn means the differences between the bids was even lower.
In passing, I am rather surprised that "Chain supply management" is only valued at 20% of the bids. I would have thought that maintenance for a Fire service vehicle would be better served closer to the home base, assuming all other things are equal. It would seem clear to me that any increase, even a modest one, in this weighting would almost certainly push the Local bid over any other.
Who designed the scoring criteria? As anyone who has been involved in this knows, the scoring 'criteria' can influence the "Objectively based" outcome quite considerably!
#
2012-06-18 08:47
Totally agree with Oldnat on this. If it has been down to pure financial reasons then it is only make the job of the crews harder. An independent look at how the tender was awarded needs to be seen before passing judgement. But the split in the vote down party lines looks political rather than what is best for the crews to do their job.
First hand experience of this, the Scottish Ambulance Service in their infinite wisdom have gone down this route. Putting price before vehicle suitability with the new fleet of approx 150 ambulances. Over a year on and these vehicles are still being tweaked. This is down to going from a traditional coach built vehicle to a straight van conversion. Giving us limited room to work in the back, not good if you have two or more crew in the back trying to help someone. And of course steering like a boat in the wet thanks to front wheel drive, the list goes on and on of what is wrong with these vehicles.
First hand experience of this, the Scottish Ambulance Service in their infinite wisdom have gone down this route. Putting price before vehicle suitability with the new fleet of approx 150 ambulances. Over a year on and these vehicles are still being tweaked. This is down to going from a traditional coach built vehicle to a straight van conversion. Giving us limited room to work in the back, not good if you have two or more crew in the back trying to help someone. And of course steering like a boat in the wet thanks to front wheel drive, the list goes on and on of what is wrong with these vehicles.
#
2012-06-18 09:11
Having done a bit of scoring now and again, the thing that strikes me as odd is that the percentage difference is actually only 2.13% Ordinarily, you lop off the top and bottom bids and favour those in the middle looking for track record on deliverables. Emergency One were the only contractor based in Scotland, and have an excellent track record. The others bids were from Surrey, Bristol and Chorley.
I note that not one Scottish company bid for the provision of Financial System Software for the new Unitary Fire Service authority. A rather sizeable contract.
I wonder how many Scottish companies are bidding for and receiving work in the South of England...
I suspect Ms Cunningham as Minister responsible might be calling this in for further investigation.
I note that not one Scottish company bid for the provision of Financial System Software for the new Unitary Fire Service authority. A rather sizeable contract.
I wonder how many Scottish companies are bidding for and receiving work in the South of England...
I suspect Ms Cunningham as Minister responsible might be calling this in for further investigation.
#
2012-06-18 14:46
I hope the auditor for Scotland is on the job. It would be criminal to give this work away to a separate foreign country when it could be kept in Scotland.
I would like to know what Emergency One (UK) Ltd, is making of it? Of course they may be inclined to say nothing in case they jeopardise future contracts with the Council.
I would like to know what Emergency One (UK) Ltd, is making of it? Of course they may be inclined to say nothing in case they jeopardise future contracts with the Council.
#
2012-06-18 14:51
I might be wrong but isn't John Dennis Coachbuilders Ltd a subsidiary of Scottish company Alexander-Dennis of Falkirk? With a major shareholder being Brian Souter.
The Scottish plant's expertise is in buses (brand Alexander-Dennis) and the English-based plant builds emergency vehicles (brand John Dennis).
I don't think the argument is clear cut when John Dennis may actually owned by a Scots firm. Sure we would like to see things manufactured in Scotland but hey-ho sometimes it doesn't work that way because a Scots firm has factories across the UK.
The Scottish plant's expertise is in buses (brand Alexander-Dennis) and the English-based plant builds emergency vehicles (brand John Dennis).
I don't think the argument is clear cut when John Dennis may actually owned by a Scots firm. Sure we would like to see things manufactured in Scotland but hey-ho sometimes it doesn't work that way because a Scots firm has factories across the UK.
#
2012-06-18 16:52
For those interested
Board Meeting Papers for Thursday 14 June 2012 can be accessed at: strathclydefireboard.org/.../...
Board Meeting Papers for Thursday 14 June 2012 can be accessed at: strathclydefireboard.org/.../...
#
2012-06-18 18:43
This seems to be something bred in the phsycic of labour supporters in Scotland.
their view seems to be that if the jobs go down South this is acceptable if the jobs go to likeminded labour supporters a view in my opinion not shared by their Southern Colleagues.
I seem to recollect a number of jobs being lost in Fife following a vote there
which meant the jobs went South. A good case of cutting of your nose to spite your face.
their view seems to be that if the jobs go down South this is acceptable if the jobs go to likeminded labour supporters a view in my opinion not shared by their Southern Colleagues.
I seem to recollect a number of jobs being lost in Fife following a vote there
which meant the jobs went South. A good case of cutting of your nose to spite your face.
#
2012-06-18 19:08
Sorry drumsmudden, but if we aspire to be a grown-up independent country then we must eschew protectionism and be OK with some contracts going to foreign suppliers, and with foreign buyers coming to Scotland to fulfil their needs. That's what International Trade is all about; it can't be a one way street.
#
2012-06-18 20:35
I agree with alasdairmac.
Scotland exports more to other countries than we import. why would anyone else buy from us, if we don't buy from them?
International trade is to Scotland's benefit.
Scotland exports more to other countries than we import. why would anyone else buy from us, if we don't buy from them?
International trade is to Scotland's benefit.
#
2012-06-18 22:18
AandO i was not referring to international trade but to the mindset of,mainly, labour politicians who personify what has been the lack of give and take with our Southern neighbours. We give and they take, is this not evident in the majority of comments on these pages?.
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