General
Monday, 16 July 2012 10:31
47 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter
A Labour MSP has been accused of making false claims against Scottish Government Officials in a row over a report that compared the wealth of an independent Scotland with that of other nations.
Ken Macintosh has refused to accept an official report showing an independent Scotland would be ranked six places higher than the UK, when comparing its GDP per-capita with that of 27 other European nations.
Labour’s finance spokesperson also claimed earlier reports published by the same Government officials had been “written by the SNP press office”.
The accusation by the Labour MSP prompted the Convener of the Scottish Parliament Finance Committee, SNP MSP Kenneth Gibson, to write to Mr Macintosh asking him to drop his accusation and to clarify where he believed an independent Scotland would be ranked.
In a letter to the Labour MSP, Mr Gibson wrote: “I wish to take issue regarding your claims reported on the BBC regarding the Scottish Government’s figures showing where an independent Scotland would have been in the Eurostat rankings had its appropriate share of the Extra-Regio been allocated.
“Firstly, you claim that of previous figures on Scotland’s rankings in the OECD: ‘in fact they were written by the SNP press office.’ This is incorrect as this link to the Scottish Government website shows: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0039/00390896.pdf
“In fact they were produced by Scottish Government officials. Would you now accept that your ‘fact’ is not true?
“Secondly, you would appear not to accept the work of Scottish Government officials in terms of the March 2012 Eurostat figures on where Scotland would rank in terms of wealth per head.
“Could you therefore tell me where you believe Scotland would rank on such a table when its appropriate and geographic share of the Extra-Region has been allocated?”
However, in response Mr Macintosh described his previous comments as “gentle mocking” and went on to imply that Government Ministers may have been guilty of “manipulation or misuse” of official statistics.
Mr Macintosh wrote: “I was not sure whether to be baffled or amused by your letter on the subject of Scotland’s supposed rankings in the OECD. The point I was making and which you clearly accept is that Scotland is not ranked by the OECD, these are rankings produced by the SNP. Scottish Government officials have never made these claims before and therefore I believe we can only assume they were instructed to do so by SNP Ministers.
“I am sure you are aware of the level of concern that exists over the level of manipulation or misuse of supposedly official statistics to make party political points. The SNP are sailing pretty close to the wind on this issue and gentle mocking from me is the least you should be prepared to accept.”
Mr Gibson described the contents of the Labour MSP’s letter as bizarre and said:
“Ken’s letter is quite bizarre and suggests a creeping arrogance is developing amongst the anti-independence parties that they don’t have to answer questions about their claims.
“Not only does he make no attempt to say where he thinks an independent Scotland would be placed in the Eurostat league table but he repeats a charge about the work of Scottish Government officials which is provably wrong.”
The Cunninghame North MSP insisted the time had come for anti-independence politicians to start producing facts when challenging figures instead of attacking public servants.
He added:
"These official figures show the wealth of Scotland and demolish the credibility of his unsupported attempt to talk down Scotland's economy, and ability to make decisions for ourselves.
"The example of other successful small independent European nations is an overwhelming vote of confidence in the economic case for an independent Scotland.
“And a fundamental question Ken MacIntosh and Labour have to answer is why they want decisions about Scotland’s spending left to a Tory-led Westminster government making austerity cuts which Scotland rejected at the polls?”
The EU member states ranked above Scotland all have populations significantly smaller than the UK’s, and two of them have populations smaller than Scotland:
• Luxembourg - Half a million
• Austria - Eight million
• Ireland - Four and a half million
• Netherlands - Seventeen million
• Scotland – Five million
• UK – Sixty-two million
Comments
#
2012-07-16 00:47
Is there no way that this gentleman and his like can be held to account in a court of law to verify or reject these statements. The British electorate as a whole need to know if their representatives are liars!
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2012-07-16 10:07
Quoting Sannymac:
I have been wondering this too. Who can say no to those flagrant crooks so , I thought, what about that great organization whose reason for existance is the teaching of truth and morality. Yes the church, are they not duty bound to use the sword of truth and smite the enemy of the people? I think it is time the church showed the wrong-doers the error of their ways. This is a cause worthy of a battle as compared to some they have chosen to fight. So mote it be.
Is there no way that this gentleman and his like can be held to account in a court of law to verify or reject these statements. The British electorate as a whole need to know if their representatives are liars!
I have been wondering this too. Who can say no to those flagrant crooks so , I thought, what about that great organization whose reason for existance is the teaching of truth and morality. Yes the church, are they not duty bound to use the sword of truth and smite the enemy of the people? I think it is time the church showed the wrong-doers the error of their ways. This is a cause worthy of a battle as compared to some they have chosen to fight. So mote it be.
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2012-07-16 00:59
I have sent this to Macintosh
Dear Mr Macintosh
I am not sure whether to be baffled or disgusted by your continuing to claim that the “OECD rankings” “were produced by the SNP.”
I have worked with a number of the Scottish Government statisticians before, when the Government was a Lab/LD coalition.
A number of the analyses that they produced then had “never been made before”. They weren’t “claims” then, as they aren’t now.
The analyses that the statisticians conducted then were instructed by Lab/LD Ministers. That is what Government statisticians are employed to do – to analyse data in order to help the determination of policy.
If you don’t understand the mechanics of Government well enough to know that, then clearly the decision of the Scottish Labour Party not to elect you as leader was well made.
Indeed, that you continue to impugn the reputation of civil servants by implying that they will distort data to serve their political masters suggests that you don’t even qualify to be the Shadow Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment, and Sustainable Growth.
You should not assume that others share your view that civil servants will lie for the Government of the day.
In the unlikely event of your ever attaining office, you will find that they will work to professional standards – not the dubious morality that you exhibit.
Dear Mr Macintosh
I am not sure whether to be baffled or disgusted by your continuing to claim that the “OECD rankings” “were produced by the SNP.”
I have worked with a number of the Scottish Government statisticians before, when the Government was a Lab/LD coalition.
A number of the analyses that they produced then had “never been made before”. They weren’t “claims” then, as they aren’t now.
The analyses that the statisticians conducted then were instructed by Lab/LD Ministers. That is what Government statisticians are employed to do – to analyse data in order to help the determination of policy.
If you don’t understand the mechanics of Government well enough to know that, then clearly the decision of the Scottish Labour Party not to elect you as leader was well made.
Indeed, that you continue to impugn the reputation of civil servants by implying that they will distort data to serve their political masters suggests that you don’t even qualify to be the Shadow Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment, and Sustainable Growth.
You should not assume that others share your view that civil servants will lie for the Government of the day.
In the unlikely event of your ever attaining office, you will find that they will work to professional standards – not the dubious morality that you exhibit.
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2012-07-16 13:12
Quoting xyz:
Was that a polite and well ballanced and rational response to an irrational and obviously unbalanced person OR A logical response to a rather sleazy bit of propaganda spouted by a liar from labour.
It is not spin or propaganda. . . . . just more stupid anti-Scottish lies.
Excellent!
Was that a polite and well ballanced and rational response to an irrational and obviously unbalanced person OR A logical response to a rather sleazy bit of propaganda spouted by a liar from labour.
It is not spin or propaganda. . . . . just more stupid anti-Scottish lies.
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2012-07-16 02:36
I had to hold back!
I've been told (though I can't vouch for it) that back in 2007 an SNP Minister tried to "lean" on the statisticians, that it was reported to the FM who came down heavily on that Minister.
At the UK level, the head of the ONS had to go public with a statement that they would not politicise their calculations, because Cameron wouldn't keep Coalition Ministers in line.
Politicians (of any party) will try to abuse their position from time to time, but the records show that the Scottish Civil Service is much better at ensuring that their advice to Ministers is less subject to manipulation than at UK level.
I've been told (though I can't vouch for it) that back in 2007 an SNP Minister tried to "lean" on the statisticians, that it was reported to the FM who came down heavily on that Minister.
At the UK level, the head of the ONS had to go public with a statement that they would not politicise their calculations, because Cameron wouldn't keep Coalition Ministers in line.
Politicians (of any party) will try to abuse their position from time to time, but the records show that the Scottish Civil Service is much better at ensuring that their advice to Ministers is less subject to manipulation than at UK level.
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2012-07-16 06:28
Quote:
Dont mess with the statisticians ! Are they like a modern day version of wizards ?
I've been told (though I can't vouch for it) that back in 2007 an SNP Minister tried to "lean" on the statisticians, that it was reported to the FM who came down heavily on that Minister.
Dont mess with the statisticians ! Are they like a modern day version of wizards ?
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2012-07-16 08:31
I also have written to MSPs and am still waiting for a reply so I would not hold out much hope of MacIntosh replying but if he does it will just be some waffle they just don't like to be proved wrong.
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2012-07-16 18:55
You should be banned from this site for cruelty to numpties........oh I don't know though, on second thoughts you've been far too kind. ;=)
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2012-07-16 01:40
Union pollies cannot admit that Scotland would be far better off financially a san independent country.
Muddy the waters.
but if true, then it needs to be inthe headlines, on billboard and in leaflets.
Emphasising that these are official and proven figures.
When the BBC and the MSM are forced to admit Scotland would be better off outside the UK with far more money for each Scot then the issue of bias can be lessened.
we alls aw the poll daying scots would vote for independnec if they were better off, so this is an achilles heel for Westminster and needs to be rammed home.
Will it be reported? I think not unless the opposite outcome was the result!
Muddy the waters.
but if true, then it needs to be inthe headlines, on billboard and in leaflets.
Emphasising that these are official and proven figures.
When the BBC and the MSM are forced to admit Scotland would be better off outside the UK with far more money for each Scot then the issue of bias can be lessened.
we alls aw the poll daying scots would vote for independnec if they were better off, so this is an achilles heel for Westminster and needs to be rammed home.
Will it be reported? I think not unless the opposite outcome was the result!
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2012-07-16 07:04
It is about time these people were held accountable for slanderis remarks of unfalse claims they think they can say what they like and it wont be questioned if that is his idea of mocking then he needs to go to mocking school xick, does this clown just out of interest tell me and my fellow Scots why we should stay in the union, just that ive heard plenty of why we should vote Independance, FREEDOM
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2012-07-16 07:07
I had thought better of Mr Macintosh, but apparently I was wrong. Not only is he as tribal as the rest of the Labour leadership, he is just as ready to throw muck with no care to the damage caused as his Westminster masters.
Semantics aside, his claim was that the SNP 'produced' these figures. This is clearly not the case. The SG may have instigated the study, but the figures were produced by the civil service. In one stroke he not only slanders the SNP but also implies that the civil service (who have now all 'gone native'), are now in total thrall to the SG.
Well done Mr Macintosh, you have proven your tribal street creds to your Labour colleagues. We won't mistake you for the voice of reason within Labour again. Our mistake, do accept our apologies for mis-reading your televised speech when running for party leadership.
Semantics aside, his claim was that the SNP 'produced' these figures. This is clearly not the case. The SG may have instigated the study, but the figures were produced by the civil service. In one stroke he not only slanders the SNP but also implies that the civil service (who have now all 'gone native'), are now in total thrall to the SG.
Well done Mr Macintosh, you have proven your tribal street creds to your Labour colleagues. We won't mistake you for the voice of reason within Labour again. Our mistake, do accept our apologies for mis-reading your televised speech when running for party leadership.
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2012-07-16 08:01
Regrettably, thse types of 'problems' are now firmly rooted inside the dependency parties DNA, in particular Labour.
They seem pathelogically incapable of accepting anything that might show Scotland in a good light and absolutely nothing that comes out of the SNP.
That is the nature of the beast we are dealing with and the sunken level of intellect that also has to be addressed.
Despite analysis that clearly shows that Scotland has been in fiscal surplus for a great many years, this ingrained negativity needs to be aggressively countered. It might be, for whatever reason, that the SNP cannot rise to the challenge by themselves, hampered as they are by the unionist bias of the MSM and BBC Scotland (Mr. Jenkins).
It might therefore be up to others to provide overt support to the SNP who, depsite being aware of much of the facts seem incapable of expousing them ?.
They seem pathelogically incapable of accepting anything that might show Scotland in a good light and absolutely nothing that comes out of the SNP.
That is the nature of the beast we are dealing with and the sunken level of intellect that also has to be addressed.
Despite analysis that clearly shows that Scotland has been in fiscal surplus for a great many years, this ingrained negativity needs to be aggressively countered. It might be, for whatever reason, that the SNP cannot rise to the challenge by themselves, hampered as they are by the unionist bias of the MSM and BBC Scotland (Mr. Jenkins).
It might therefore be up to others to provide overt support to the SNP who, depsite being aware of much of the facts seem incapable of expousing them ?.
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2012-07-16 08:39
Trying latterly to suggest that his accusations were only "gentle mocking" is weasely in extreme and cowardly.
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2012-07-16 09:53
Was front runner in some people's opinion for the labour leadership but was beaten by the much superior Ms Lamont.
He is certainly living up to our expectations and now will be trying to live down this latest faux pas
Remember this one!
newsnetscotland.com/.../...
Ken Macintosh, the Labour MSP for Eastwood, attacked what he called “suspect behaviour” after the Dundee Lord Provost, Bob Duncan, was forced to pull out of a planned meeting with the spiritual leader in order to attend a family funeral.
Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland’s ‘Brian Taylor’s Big Debate’ the Labour MSP attacked the SNP who he claimed had been pressurised by the Chinese Government into downgrading the visit from the Tibetan Buddhist leader.
He is certainly living up to our expectations and now will be trying to live down this latest faux pas
Remember this one!
newsnetscotland.com/.../...
Ken Macintosh, the Labour MSP for Eastwood, attacked what he called “suspect behaviour” after the Dundee Lord Provost, Bob Duncan, was forced to pull out of a planned meeting with the spiritual leader in order to attend a family funeral.
Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland’s ‘Brian Taylor’s Big Debate’ the Labour MSP attacked the SNP who he claimed had been pressurised by the Chinese Government into downgrading the visit from the Tibetan Buddhist leader.
#
2012-07-16 12:01
"SNP who he claimed had been pressurised by the Chinese Government into downgrading the visit from the Tibetan Buddhist leader."
I CANNOT in a month of Sundays imagine Alex Salmond being pressurised by ANYONE!
Believe me.
Grasping at straws comes to mind.
Has Ken Macintosh lost all common sense?
I CANNOT in a month of Sundays imagine Alex Salmond being pressurised by ANYONE!
Believe me.
Grasping at straws comes to mind.
Has Ken Macintosh lost all common sense?
#
2012-07-16 20:47
I'm sorry for being pedantic but this useage of the word 'pressurised' is driving me round the twist!!
The word to use in this situation is 'pressured' or 'pressed'.
To be pressurised is to have an airline inserted where the sun don't shine!
(And I don't mean RyanAir, I mean an air-line like you get in a garage - I'm away for a wee lie-down...)
The word to use in this situation is 'pressured' or 'pressed'.
To be pressurised is to have an airline inserted where the sun don't shine!
(And I don't mean RyanAir, I mean an air-line like you get in a garage - I'm away for a wee lie-down...)
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2012-07-16 08:50
Labour would attempt it e.g. Jim Murphy at the Scottish office.
I don't like it but understand it when it is for the promotion of party or self interest (That's you Jim).
What I don't accept is when it is used to misrepresent a nations potential. If the arguement was that Scotland would be 9th not 6th. that's OK as an interpretation of data. However the general slur is to imply that the concept of Scotland being stronger is nonsense.
Crossing the line from party spin to union spin offends me greatly as a Scot.
I don't like it but understand it when it is for the promotion of party or self interest (That's you Jim).
What I don't accept is when it is used to misrepresent a nations potential. If the arguement was that Scotland would be 9th not 6th. that's OK as an interpretation of data. However the general slur is to imply that the concept of Scotland being stronger is nonsense.
Crossing the line from party spin to union spin offends me greatly as a Scot.
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2012-07-16 09:30
Although it is an interesting report, some of the placings or rankings look a little odd to me. Ok, I know sweet sod all about national economics or the compiling of statistical data, but then I dont think that I am unique in that so I would guess that this report would be viewed with suspicion by many people.
However, if this Labour MSP as spotted that this report is factually wrong or is a misrepresentati on of the facts, then as an opposition MSP it is duty to inform the electorate of those factual errors or misleading claims and I am surprised he has not done this.
However, if this Labour MSP as spotted that this report is factually wrong or is a misrepresentati on of the facts, then as an opposition MSP it is duty to inform the electorate of those factual errors or misleading claims and I am surprised he has not done this.
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2012-07-16 09:35
Off topic but has anyone else noticed the Scotsman on line opinion poll has been gerrymandered (again). The question is whether the fuss surrounding the olympics makes people less likely to vote for independence. Yesterday it was running roughly 70/30 in favour of 'no'. This morning it's the other way round!
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2012-07-16 21:32
Yup, noticed this too. ‘No’ vote all last week was around 73% with around 5000+ votes. All of a sudden the votes have been switched.
There’s a new poll on Scotsman tonight about NATO.
There’s a new poll on Scotsman tonight about NATO.
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2012-07-16 10:01
The "creeping arrogance" of the Westminster unionist establishment in making claims like this is because they know that their poodle BBC and MSM newspapers will accept without question and not investigate and challenge any of the claims they make - no matter how unfounded and outrageous they are.
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2012-07-16 10:24
Mr Macintosh has at least altered the usual phrase to 'Statistics, lies and damned lies' whilst no doubt wearing his tin foil bunnet.
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2012-07-16 10:25
Just read this story that Westminster is looking to privatise blood transfusion services
news.sky.com/.../...
news.sky.com/.../...
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2012-07-16 12:54
I wouldn't be surprised if it was in England only. Sky has in the past been unable to differentiate between Uk and devolved matters. No sign of it on the BBCs website though.
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2012-07-16 10:41
OT, but now "SCOTLAND'S salmon fishing industry could be damaged by independence, a new survey has claimed".
According to the Herald, among other "Salmond accused" stories. Can you really all stand another 2 years of this?
According to the Herald, among other "Salmond accused" stories. Can you really all stand another 2 years of this?
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2012-07-16 10:41
"Creeping arrogance" is probably being a wee bit to kind to the Unionist arrogance that is born from hegemony and the culture of entitlement and ennoblement that goes with it as these creatures scrabble for their place on the escalator to the hallowed chamber of greed and avarice where they are awarded for their lies and propaganda with an ermine goonie.
Remember Nicolas skewering of the lies spluttered by Lord Jim Wallace of Tankerness on the Big Debate? He was incandescent with rage that Nicola had the temerity to expose him as the charlatan he clearly is.
Lord George Foulkes is another who regularly uses the compliant MSM to belch lies and propaganda. Because in the past 400 or so years they have grown up with the fact that the MSM bends with them and will validate their lies by repeating them unchallenged, provided that is copious amounts of government money is tossed to their papers in local authority advertising and that their editors and lackeys are wined and dined and showered with gifts and allowed access to certain ministers and information. The SNP put a stop to most of that hence the propaganda war.
It also causes the out burst from these politicians who were so used to the old way of doing thing who now howl at the cybernats as Lord George Foulkes has named us for having the temerity to rise up and challenge their vile lies and slurs. He also wails that we and we alone are responsible for the hate posts on the internet. However it is widely known that he is a prolific user of public forums and spends a lot of time posting anti SNP/ Alex Salmond poison on them.
Kenny Gibson is an excellent foil for their lies and can make them look what they are. He does tend to speak to rapidly as his passion takes over but I think he should be used much more by the SNP, for example to take the heat of Nicola who seems to be the first choice for QT and other programmes. She is becoming over exposed. I would also like to see Alex Neil more.
Remember Nicolas skewering of the lies spluttered by Lord Jim Wallace of Tankerness on the Big Debate? He was incandescent with rage that Nicola had the temerity to expose him as the charlatan he clearly is.
Lord George Foulkes is another who regularly uses the compliant MSM to belch lies and propaganda. Because in the past 400 or so years they have grown up with the fact that the MSM bends with them and will validate their lies by repeating them unchallenged, provided that is copious amounts of government money is tossed to their papers in local authority advertising and that their editors and lackeys are wined and dined and showered with gifts and allowed access to certain ministers and information. The SNP put a stop to most of that hence the propaganda war.
It also causes the out burst from these politicians who were so used to the old way of doing thing who now howl at the cybernats as Lord George Foulkes has named us for having the temerity to rise up and challenge their vile lies and slurs. He also wails that we and we alone are responsible for the hate posts on the internet. However it is widely known that he is a prolific user of public forums and spends a lot of time posting anti SNP/ Alex Salmond poison on them.
Kenny Gibson is an excellent foil for their lies and can make them look what they are. He does tend to speak to rapidly as his passion takes over but I think he should be used much more by the SNP, for example to take the heat of Nicola who seems to be the first choice for QT and other programmes. She is becoming over exposed. I would also like to see Alex Neil more.
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2012-07-16 10:44
Folks should remember that the GERS Report was first dreamed up by John Major's Government to prove that Scotland could not stand on its own. I remember the headlines at the time- 'black hole' etc. It wasn't until SNP came to power that the economy was more forensically examined and stiffer tests applied, applying some of the methodologies of Neil Aslen that a more realistc basis was used. All this was done with some assumption since guesswork still has to be applied and he was using a conservative approach, which suggests that in a truly independent Scotland with our own priorities things may be even brighter than he suggested.
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2012-07-16 10:55
Hearing Cameron on TV at the moment and all the money going to be spent on the railways in England and Wales why can't Scotland not be allowed to spend on future infrastructure, now we have the dogs tail"Clegg" speaking I'm not going to swear but I feel like it.
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2012-07-17 18:02
Barnett consequentials.?
It seems not, as it's all going to be paid for through fare increases!
Another devious ruse to deny Scotland its due, like the giant sewage project for London to sweep away the giant sewage problem they have in those parts.
It seems not, as it's all going to be paid for through fare increases!
Another devious ruse to deny Scotland its due, like the giant sewage project for London to sweep away the giant sewage problem they have in those parts.
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2012-07-16 11:14
The problem with ken Macintosh and Labour politicians is that they are compairing the Scottish Government and Civil Service morals to their own, therefor what Macintosh is realy saying is that if in power they would be gerrymandering the figures to suit their own agenda.
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2012-07-16 11:38
Labour Ken Macintosh MSP:---“I am sure you are aware of the level of concern that exists over the level of manipulation or misuse of supposedly official statistics to make party political points."From Main article.
We are not going to be duped again by Labour politicos:---
The McCrone Report on oil and the change in Scotland's territorial waters are but two examples of Labour's duplicity when it comes to all matters affecting the people in Scotland.
independent.co.uk/.../...
"It revealed how North Sea oil could have made an independent Scotland as prosperous as Switzerland."
They are at heart, Westminstercent ric, and shudder at Scotland becoming an independent country.
It is a mindset which they cannot break.
We are not going to be duped again by Labour politicos:---
The McCrone Report on oil and the change in Scotland's territorial waters are but two examples of Labour's duplicity when it comes to all matters affecting the people in Scotland.
independent.co.uk/.../...
"It revealed how North Sea oil could have made an independent Scotland as prosperous as Switzerland."
They are at heart, Westminstercent ric, and shudder at Scotland becoming an independent country.
It is a mindset which they cannot break.
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2012-07-16 11:46
Even as a non-member of the SNP, although I support independence, I am growing increasingly angry at the Unionist parties tactics... of which this is just "another" baleful example.... so....text of email sent to Mr Mcintosh earlier:
"Dear Mr Macintosh,
As an expat Scot living in England, I've been following the referendum debate with interest. I note from reading one of the posts on Newsnet Scotland that you recently (as reported on the BBC website dated 10th June 2012) made a false claim that the SNP Press Office "wrote" OECD figures. It appears that you have since compunded your error by not only refusing to withdraw your false allegation, but have responded with a petulant and unconvincing letter in response to SNP MSP Ken Gibson.
It behoves you to clarify your position on this matter, accept that your claim was false and to apologise in public.
I'm not an SNP member or supporter, but rather than throw ill-advised accusations around about the "manipulation or misuse of official statistics", it might help your case more if you actually engaged with the issue, and came up with a positive case for the Union which has been so signally lacking from the pro-Union parties thus far.
Whilst you may characterise your intervention as "gentle mocking", it looks very much to me like a continuation of the "yah boo" negativity which characterises those who oppose independence. I for one have come to the conclusion that independence would be the best option both for Scotland AND the rest of the UK, and have been surprised at the inability of those who oppose independence to come up with a coherent, positive case against it. The Scottish Labour party certainly isn't doing itself any favours by getting into bed with the Tories and the LD's. The strategy of insisting on a "yes/no" referendum is high risk; by failing to flesh out and champion the devo-max / full fiscal autonomy alternative that most Scots appear to want, your party is simply playing into the hands of the SNP.
Even if the vote is "no" in 2014, the issue is not going to disappear, and the "jam tomorrow" approach presented of possible further devolution on condition the Scots vote no to independence may come back to haunt Unionist parties when they realise they can't make good on their promises and steer greater devolution through Westminster.
You may think that the exercise of analysing the figures to estimate where an independent Scotland would lie in the OECD tables is futile, or even somehow dishonest, but it is a legitimate part of the debate. What have you to be scared of? If you disagree with the analysis presented by the SNP, then let's hear it; bring on these experts you talk of and demonstrate the strength you see in the alternative view.
Sitting on the sidelines throwing rocks, and then protesting that it was "gentle mocking" when your original claim is exposed as untrue does you no credit, it simply reinforces the feeling that tub-thumping Labour particularism is more important to you than genuine debate.
Yours sincerely, etc."
It will be interesting to see if anything other than a "stock response" emerges!
"Dear Mr Macintosh,
As an expat Scot living in England, I've been following the referendum debate with interest. I note from reading one of the posts on Newsnet Scotland that you recently (as reported on the BBC website dated 10th June 2012) made a false claim that the SNP Press Office "wrote" OECD figures. It appears that you have since compunded your error by not only refusing to withdraw your false allegation, but have responded with a petulant and unconvincing letter in response to SNP MSP Ken Gibson.
It behoves you to clarify your position on this matter, accept that your claim was false and to apologise in public.
I'm not an SNP member or supporter, but rather than throw ill-advised accusations around about the "manipulation or misuse of official statistics", it might help your case more if you actually engaged with the issue, and came up with a positive case for the Union which has been so signally lacking from the pro-Union parties thus far.
Whilst you may characterise your intervention as "gentle mocking", it looks very much to me like a continuation of the "yah boo" negativity which characterises those who oppose independence. I for one have come to the conclusion that independence would be the best option both for Scotland AND the rest of the UK, and have been surprised at the inability of those who oppose independence to come up with a coherent, positive case against it. The Scottish Labour party certainly isn't doing itself any favours by getting into bed with the Tories and the LD's. The strategy of insisting on a "yes/no" referendum is high risk; by failing to flesh out and champion the devo-max / full fiscal autonomy alternative that most Scots appear to want, your party is simply playing into the hands of the SNP.
Even if the vote is "no" in 2014, the issue is not going to disappear, and the "jam tomorrow" approach presented of possible further devolution on condition the Scots vote no to independence may come back to haunt Unionist parties when they realise they can't make good on their promises and steer greater devolution through Westminster.
You may think that the exercise of analysing the figures to estimate where an independent Scotland would lie in the OECD tables is futile, or even somehow dishonest, but it is a legitimate part of the debate. What have you to be scared of? If you disagree with the analysis presented by the SNP, then let's hear it; bring on these experts you talk of and demonstrate the strength you see in the alternative view.
Sitting on the sidelines throwing rocks, and then protesting that it was "gentle mocking" when your original claim is exposed as untrue does you no credit, it simply reinforces the feeling that tub-thumping Labour particularism is more important to you than genuine debate.
Yours sincerely, etc."
It will be interesting to see if anything other than a "stock response" emerges!
#
2012-07-16 12:28
Well said Galen. As you point out, throwing rocks and sniping from the sidelines is not engaging in debate.
Hope you do get a response. It would be interesting to see what Mr Macintosh has to say in reply to yourself or oldnat.
Hope you do get a response. It would be interesting to see what Mr Macintosh has to say in reply to yourself or oldnat.
#
2012-07-16 11:52
Marga B
If you google " Salmond accused" you will find there is 413,000 plus entries. We should perhaps be running a sweepstake (profits to the Yes campaign) guessing when it will hit the half million mark.
If you google " Salmond accused" you will find there is 413,000 plus entries. We should perhaps be running a sweepstake (profits to the Yes campaign) guessing when it will hit the half million mark.
#
2012-07-16 12:15
Try this:
SNP accused.
www.google.co.uk/.../
About 583,000 results (0.24 seconds)
# Galen10 2012-07-16 11:46 above:
Well said.
SNP accused.
www.google.co.uk/.../
About 583,000 results (0.24 seconds)
# Galen10 2012-07-16 11:46 above:
Well said.
#
2012-07-16 12:18
Is this not just typical of the Unionists. They are not prepared to accept or allow a full and proper debate on the real issues such as the economy because they know that these figures are correct. Just as in the past they suppressed the facts to prevent the Scottish people seeing them.
What is even more unacceptable is that the BBC should spread this nonsense and thereby lend support to this attempt to mislead the Scottish people again. Who takes responsibility for this? Is this not against the BBC charter?
What is even more unacceptable is that the BBC should spread this nonsense and thereby lend support to this attempt to mislead the Scottish people again. Who takes responsibility for this? Is this not against the BBC charter?
#
2012-07-16 17:04
Interesting facebook site folks,labour voters for independence give it a look its very good.
#
2012-07-17 15:10
I saw it,and there's also a recent Scottish LibDeb one for independence.
Small in number,but this does show there are people in these two parties who actually STOP and THINK despite their respective leaderships and policies.
That's all it takes---STOP and take a LONG THINK !
Don't be fairt.We're not going to row off into mid-Atlantic on Independence day!
It's Curran,Darling, Milliband Lamont etc who put on the frighteners.
They are incapable or unwilling of thinking outside of the NO box.
Small in number,but this does show there are people in these two parties who actually STOP and THINK despite their respective leaderships and policies.
That's all it takes---STOP and take a LONG THINK !
Don't be fairt.We're not going to row off into mid-Atlantic on Independence day!
It's Curran,Darling, Milliband Lamont etc who put on the frighteners.
They are incapable or unwilling of thinking outside of the NO box.
#
2012-07-18 15:00
Andy Anderson. The BBC will start listening the day we stop paying. Until that great day, nothing will change, they are omnipotent and a law uoto themselves. Go figure !.
#
2012-07-19 14:28
The depth and range of distortions re Scots and Scotland fostered by those of a Unionist mindset, opposing what is simply taken for granted in England, must be at epidemic proportions.
They know full well that these are lies, yet will lie and lie again to try to achieve their imagined 'holy land'.
What they dont seem to understand is that weaving a web of lies can only bring them a place in the Guiness Book of Records, perhaps a new one: ' Disgusting Political Liars of Our Time'
How can such folk allow themselve to get so scared - or is it something else that motivates them?
They know full well that these are lies, yet will lie and lie again to try to achieve their imagined 'holy land'.
What they dont seem to understand is that weaving a web of lies can only bring them a place in the Guiness Book of Records, perhaps a new one: ' Disgusting Political Liars of Our Time'
How can such folk allow themselve to get so scared - or is it something else that motivates them?
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