by Ed Targett

The United Kingdom is falling apart.  And nobody seems to have really noticed.  It’s not the riots and the burning buildings, nor the stumbling stock markets.  Those fill every front page.

At a slower, less alarming pace, something more profound is happening: the United Kingdom may well be on the verge of breaking up; actually disuniting its disparate parts.

The word “secession” conjures up images of splinter groups, fringe corners of far-flung states agitating for the independence of their often imaginary fiefdoms: bomb blasts in the Basque region; guns in Grozny.

But in generally less dramatic fashion, Scotland has voted for a Scottish National Party (SNP) government, committed to an independence referendum; a long-cherished dream.  Signs of a rift were also on display when Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond complained bitterly about broadcasters heading coverage of the riots as "UK riots" when they were, in fact, English ones alone.  Claiming the footage would damage Scotland's reputation as a tourism destination, he told BBC Radio Scotland: "We know we have a different society in Scotland, and one of my frustrations was to see this being described on BBC television and Sky as riots in the UK."

But the friction and current constitutional confusion between the two countries harks back much further, to the Jacobite uprisings of the 18th century; the Culloden massacre and 1747 Act of Proscription, a law that banned the wearing of traditional dress, use of Gaelic, bearing of arms or even enjoyment of traditional music in an attempt by the British government to pacify the “unruly” Scottish clans.

It was a process that author Alastair MacIntosh describes as the final internal colonization of the British Isles; one that saw some half a million people forced off their land in what became known as the Highland Clearances, while remaining clan chiefs were incorporated into the British aristocracy, which MacIntosh characterized as “remnant symbols of ‘noble savagery’ that could safely be repackaged into a shortbread tin mélange of British identity.”

That same tin is currently being rattled.  And when it is opened it looks set to reveal as many worms as any can.  For England without the appendages of its empire – of which Scotland is in many senses the first and last part – is a curiously blank slate; a country without a memory that also, uniquely and alone in the UK, exists without its own parliament and government.

The Union, meanwhile, functions as an incoherent and unacknowledged semi-federation. With both Scotland and Wales having been gifted their own limited parliaments by Tony Blair as part of a devolutionary package intended to quell the increasingly vociferous nationalist voices in those countries, fractious separatists were meant to soften their calls for independence.

The decision by Blair’s government however raised more questions than it answered.  For with powers for education, health, agriculture and justice handed pretty much wholesale over to the Scottish parliament at Holyrood and the increasing popularity of the Scottish National Party (SNP), a taste for self-rule has turned into a rude good appetite.

Meanwhile back in England, students set to pay through the nose as university fees are "liberalized" are growing increasingly agitated at the free education gifted to Scottish higher education students by their more progressive government.  One, 19-year-old Jennifer Watts, has launched a legal challenge against a system whereby Scottish students pay nothing for their university courses, while English students, who share the same UK passport, pay the full fees – some £36,000 ($60,000) for a four year degree.

Describing the system as "fees apartheid", she told the Daily Mail that: "I’m absolutely not anti-Scottish but the system is totally unfair.  It’s wrong to create such a discriminatory regime that disadvantages English students in this way."

It’s a plaintive call likely to find an increasingly sympathetic reception from the English public, who must already accept the so-called “West Lothian Problem”, whereby MPs from constituencies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can vote on matters that only affect people living in England, while English MPs with neither their own discrete parliament, nor powers in the devolved parliaments, cannot reciprocate.

Former diplomat and ambassador Brian Barder says the answer – and perhaps the only way to save the UK – is outright federation: “Devolution has moved us half-way, but only half-way, into a federal system, with the Westminster parliament trying vainly to function both as an all-UK federal legislature and simultaneously as a parliament for England, with no definition or restriction of its powers in either capacity.

"The only durable answer to the many questions this raises is a separate second-tier parliament for England, with the Westminster parliament becoming a first-tier, all-UK federal body exercising defined and limited responsibilities, mainly for foreign-affairs, defense, human rights and regional policy, plus any other powers voluntarily ceded to the centre by the four national bodies.

"This transfer of full internal autonomy to Scotland and the other three UK nations should satisfy most Scottish and other nationalists, meet the demand for an English parliament, bring government much closer to the people, definitively answer the West Lothian Question – and, best of all, preserve the Union."

It would also raise some serious questions about what it means to be English, as opposed to British.  An increasingly splenetic English nationalism (whether represented by the violent anti-Islamic marches of the English Defence League or the anti-immigrant rhetoric of the English Democrats – who would also repeal the Human Rights Act and withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights) suggests "Englishness" as an identity or historical narrative is in danger of becoming the sole preserve of the right.

Perhaps the most important question for the English to ask is: what is the problem exactly, that Scottish independence is the answer to?  Commentator Gerry Hassan, writing for the Our Kingdom blog, says from Scotland at least, the answer is clear:

"Scots would list the fact that Britain is the fourth most unequal rich country in the world, London that splendid 'world city' the most unequal city; and the fossilised, ossified, bankrupt politics of the British state.  There is a powerful sense in Scotland that Britain doesn’t work effectively for most Scots, or indeed for most English … but that Scotland has a clear way of doing something about it."

It’s a debate, or series of questions concerning historic power, national identity and distribution of wealth that will be catapulted into motion when that independence referendum is held.  And with little grown-up discussion being held about the issue south of Hadrian’s Wall, few policy makers in Westminster seem prepared for the seismic changes that might soon be taking place to the very fabric of the UK.

This article first appeared on the American news site Nation of Change and appears here with kind permission of the author.

Ed Targett is a reporter for a series of local titles in South East England.  He has a long standing interest in international affairs and environmental issues.

Comments  

 
# clootie 2011-09-13 07:24
Thank you for the article.

I find it interesting that the issues of fees in Scotland has been presented by the media in a negative way.

Instead of "The English are charging fees and the Scots are not"

WE have the unfair headlines of a few English students being charged THE SAME as the would have at home.

Another example of spin by the MSM.

The English should not be paying fees AT HOME - focus on that.
 
 
# UpSpake 2011-09-13 07:47
All the Scottish administration articulate is what is best for Scotland. That grates with many down south when it apprears that Scots get things for free. Naw we don't. We pay our taxes and are sitting pretty thank you very much. We give more to Westminster than we ever get back. We give much more to the EU than we ever get back. We are nothing if not a generous nation.
How we choose to spend our union pocket money is entirely up to us, nobody else's business.
Problem lies in an independent Scotland. After a few years the gaps in our education, health service, social services would become so wide and stark to our neighbors down south that there will be significant unrest down there.
The establishment know this so spin and weave the dependency line in the hope that there are sufficiently large numbers of un-educated people north of the border who will believe their lies and obfuscation.
No more !. Excellent sites like Newsnet go a long way, some say not far enough, to educate and enlighten.
The Union with England has already past it's sell by date. What remains is to decide whether the whole construct is re-cycled or thrown away altogether and fres starts made by all participants.
I favor the latter proposal.
 
 
# Barontorc 2011-09-13 08:41
Here we have an "outsider" view of the British situation making understandable points and chipping in with probable outcomes, as he sees it.

What would be the SNP government's response be to it, in a fairly balanced reporting world? Would there be a proactive article set to be winging its way to this American news site 'Nation of Change'?

We, as well as "outsiders" are told what the "establishment" wants to tell us, read on their MSM and see on their EBC, is it any wonder that opinions are based on the "British" norm?

How would the SNP use a friendly press ambassador to fly the positive flag? The time's coming when the big outside world will have to be informed properly about Scottish aspirations, plans and ambitions.
 
 
# Vincent McDee 2011-09-13 08:59
I would like to point out the "americanist" perspective of the author which contemplate events in the World from afar and with obvious distortion.

No fair European reporter could name the Basque a region, it would be akin to name Scotland one and to say that " a shortbread tin mélange of British identity" is now being rattle, with or without worms, implies a profound lack of real knowledge about what's happening here.

Ed Targett is hearing bells but have no clear idea whom are they tolling for.

The English may not be happy about the difference in fees, but I would be very suprised if they are not blaming the London Tory Government for that. The west Lothian question has a very simple answer: abstention by the non implicated elected.

I would not be surprised either by the author affection to the term federation, as in America has a wholesome meaning, very different of the one intended by Barder.

Is the preserving the Union at all cost creating the conflict.

Mind me! The same "Americanism" produces a rare comprehensive description of the actual situation: "And with little grown-up discussion being held about the issue south of Hadrian’s Wall, few policy makers in Westminster seem prepared for the seismic changes that might soon be taking place to the very fabric of the UK."

I can not agree more.
 
 
# Marga B 2011-09-13 10:22
Vincent, I'd have to disagree with you on the form of what you say about the Basque Country - it is currently just that, a "region" or Autonomous Community, of Spain.

However I'd say that the author is definitely wrong in underestimating Basque progress towards independence - it is in many ways effectively independent in spite of its "regional" status in Spain.

Anyone can see how the health and wealth of its society contrasts with the mess of most of the rest of Spain, and that came with years of full fiscal autonomy and prudent governance. Bildu, the combative new progressive nationalist party, has erupted on the scene so we'll see more action soon.

Sorry to go on about these foreign issues, but living in Spain at the moment it's nice to have a positive story to tell in the midst of the general wreckage we're living in, hopefully not to become a real car crash, but people are pretty pessimistic and quite apprehensive.
 
 
# richardcain2 2011-09-13 12:33
Vince McD and Barontorc,

About your "outsider" and "americanist"[sic] comments - Ed Targett is actually a reporter for several local titles, based in southeast England. The editors here didn't quite make that clear.

This is not the only time that this article has been published in America, it can also be found at: newamericamedia.org/.../....
It's just a shame that such balanced reporting cannot get published in England.
 
 
# J Wil 2011-09-13 09:16
The UK s falling apart.

However the powers that be never fail to come up with a diversionary tactic to take the attention of the public away from the woes of the country and lift the spirits of the nation.

It could be a Royal wedding or England's Green and Pleasant Land at the first a night at the Proms.

This time they have exceeded themselves. It happens to be a heroic chap swimming through 140 miles of crap.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2011-09-13 11:16
Aye, and that's just the SNP MP's .....
 
 
# Alx1 2011-09-13 13:00
The UK s falling apart.

And WE must facilitate this in anyway we can.

May I suggest to all on here, who post on UK newspapers comments section, to keep pointing our whinging jock bashers from South of the border to start an 'e' petition on Independence for England and Scotland.

They should put up (sign) or shut up!
 
 
# J Wil 2011-09-13 15:36
I still think all the English rhetoric about independence is simply down to the fact that they cannot understand why Scots no longer wish to be part of their cherished institutions. In other words they are in the huff.
 
 
# velofello 2011-09-13 09:31
Westminster as a first tier all-UK federal body,with foreign affairs, defence,human rights etc,
No thank you. Leopards don't change their spots and so England would demand representation proportionate to its population and therefore dominance in this first tier federal parliament.
The Supreme Court issue demonstrates Westminster's willingness to ride roughshod over whatever it chooses, and the wiillingness of Westminsterised Scots to facillitate such behaviour..
 
 
# Training Day 2011-09-13 11:19
The interesting thing about this article from an 'outside' perspective is that its Unionist contributors offer no positive case for the Union, other than a vague notion that it is 'good'.

A bit like our own Scottish Unionists then.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2011-09-13 11:22
The Catch 22 remains the paper thin legitimacy, in constitutional terms, of the current Westminster set up.

The question that needs addressed is just how can Westminster continue to wield sovereign power over Scotland that it does not legally possess?

This is too nuanced for the US market at present but it is key to the next three years.
 
 
# truth 2011-09-13 11:41
I liked the article, but please, if you're going to talk about the West Lothian Question, you really must include London MPs too.

There is a London Assembly and London MPs are effectively in the same situation as those from Scotland, Wales and N Ireland.
 
 
# exel 2011-09-13 12:04
Brian Barder says the answer – and perhaps the only way to save the UK – is outright federation: “Devolution has moved us half-way, but only half-way, into a federal system, with the Westminster parliament trying vainly to function both as an all-UK federal legislature and simultaneously as a parliament for England, with no definition or restriction of its powers in either capacity.
The only durable answer to the many questions this raises is a separate second-tier parliament for England, with the Westminster parliament becoming a first-tier, all-UK federal body exercising defined and limited responsibilitie s, mainly for foreign-affairs, defense, human rights and regional policy, plus any other powers voluntarily ceded to the centre by the four national bodies.”

This statement I agree with almost completely. Mr. Barder obviously thinks that creating a fourth parliament in his Federal system will solve the UKs problems.
I do not; creating a Federation of the regions would be a much better way forward. By that I mean regional (not country)parliam ents, would be the solution I would try.
The regions of the UK are so disparate in aspirations, resources and in many, in culture.

The creation of such a Federation would need a written codified constitution accepted by the majority of the UK electorate.
 
 
# john__ 2011-09-13 12:16
That would only work if the federal government was operated on a senate system. i.e. one region (country) one vote. That would never happen in the UK. The centre would lose too much power. Could you imagine England's (50 million) response to be outvoted by Scotland (5 million), Wales (3 million) and NI (2 million).

It works in the US where Wyoming (1.5 million) has the same voting rights as California (35 million?), but that was set up at the start of the US and not imposed half way through.

John
 
 
# exel 2011-09-13 12:40
john__ 2011-09-13 12:16
“That would only work if the federal government was operated on a senate system. i.e. one region (country) one vote. That would never happen in the UK. The centre would lose too much power. Could you imagine England's (50 million) response to be outvoted by Scotland (5 million), Wales (3 million) and NI (2 million).”

I did not say one region (country) I said (NOT!!! Country). Call the regional parliaments senates if you will, each with roughly equal populations and under a constitution the same voting rights.
 
 
# John Souter 2011-09-13 12:16
There's no doubt, the Westminster/Establishment version of England is falling apart.

Unfortunately those who have profited the least from this crumbling deceit of
democracy will end up paying the most. But that doesn't mean the stiff upper lips of the establishment cabals are not twitching with raw fear while their sphincter is locked in the grip of Morpheus. The establishment knows it has failed big time and is only holding the act together by the skin of the peoples teeth.

While England is being submerged by the toxic soup of corruption, incompetence and apathy, Scotland has the bedrock of aspiration to anchor on to and let the drag of apathy slide from her.

Change is better handled when you still have a degree of control - leave it until your into free-fall and your in the hands of chance and chaos. Which, with due consideration, is just about the situation this dysfunctional, blighted, burdensome, buffer of a union is wanting us to blindly support in order to preserve its executives welfare.

These are the donkey's who for too long have allegedly led the lions!

What does that say of the lions if they continue to allow donkeys to lead them?
 
 
# hiorta 2011-09-13 12:24
"While England is being submerged by the toxic soup of corruption, incompetence and apathy, Scotland has the bedrock of aspiration to anchor on to and let the drag of apathy slide from her""

Accurately observed, succinctly put ans I wish I could have said that.

The union has nothing left except to play their bogey-man card:
'What will we do without them - how will we cope'?
We're not worried in the slightest - you are!
 
 
# velofello 2011-09-13 12:25
exel : your proposed federation, to be accepted by the majority of the UK electorate. And so dominated by England. What real difference would there be comparing your federation and the current westminster situation?
The root problem is that England is dominant in population and she has no difficulty in exercising her dominance in the Mother of Parliaments "democracy".
 
 
# exel 2011-09-13 12:47
velofello 2011-09-13 12:25
exel : your proposed federation, to be accepted by the majority of the UK electorate. And so dominated by England. What real difference would there be comparing your federation and the current westminster situation?
The root problem is that England is dominant in population and she has no difficulty in exercising her dominance in the Mother of Parliaments "democracy".

Again please read the post! I said “the creation of such a Federation would need a written codified constitution accepted by the majority of the UK electorate.”
 
 
# clootie 2011-09-13 12:40
No federation / no increased powers.

INDEPENDENCE - focus

If they can delay independence with these distractions they can continue to strip mine every resource of our nation.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2011-09-13 12:51
This article is fair, for what it's worth.
Its audience in America is very very small and not exactly crying out to be read. It may have perhaps interested people over there with some Scottish connection, but that's about all.
I cant get too excited by it myself. Saying that at least it gives its US readers a better perspective of Scotland than shortbread tins, and a more balanced report than our MSM and BBC feed to the masses here.
 
 
# velofello 2011-09-13 13:40
exel: Whether voting by country or region the majority of the UK electorate are English so the construct and operation of your federation would be English determined and English dominated.
No thanks.
 
 
# exel 2011-09-13 14:00
velofello 2011-09-13 13:40
"exel: Whether voting by country or region the majority of the UK electorate are English so the construct and operation of your federation would be English determined and English dominated.
No thanks."

None so blind as will not see, comes to mind. Race has nothing to do with it “fello”

In the 2010 GE the UK electorate showed that they were just as fed up with the present top down Westminster system as we Scots are. They wanted more autonomy for their local government they had seen what devolution could do.

The only problem was the Lib/Dems wanted a bit of power and agreed to a coalition.

The political parties have seen the writing on the wall and know the present system is dead and they have to give more control of the daily lives of their followers or end up like the Tories Lib/Dems and Labour in Scotland.

In other words party dictatorships are coming to an end throughout the UK and that includes the SNP one
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2011-09-13 16:57
Hi exel,
You may turn out to be the last LibDem standing.
 
 
# exel 2011-09-13 18:53
Jim Johnston 2011-09-13 16:57
“Hi exel,
You may turn out to be the last LibDem standing.”

Thank you Jim (I think). I am certainly a democrat, but of the social variety. I have never joined the Lib/Dem party, but voted for them continuously until 2011.

They sold their Scottish supporters down the river in 2010 for the sake of power.
 
 
# Ed Targett 2011-09-13 14:57
Hi everyone. Thanks for all the comments and glad the article has sparked some interesting debate. First things first, a caveat: I bashed the story up inbetween slaving away for a group of local papers in Kent -- pubs burning down, council meeting, the odd stabbing, flower shows -- so if it's a bit sloppily put together, that's why!

On the Federal idea, which strikes me as a very good one, bar the dubious acronym ("Federal United Kingdom"?) it's worth having a good trawl of Brian Barder' (a Labour List stalwart, forgive him)'s blog at www.barder.com/3309, where he's written plenty of lucid and intelligent -- even where we don't agree -- posts on this constitutional suggestion.

Ed
 
 
# Caadfael 2011-09-13 16:31
Thanks Ed, but we've been "Federal United Kingdomed for far too long already!
So its no thanks and the famous "You're fired" to wastemonster!
Interesting article by the way!
 
 
# oldnat 2011-09-13 15:31
Thanks for the article Ed.

" And with little grown-up discussion being held about the issue south of Hadrian’s Wall, few policy makers in Westminster seem prepared for the seismic changes that might soon be taking place to the very fabric of the UK."

How much consciousness would you say there is in SE England, that a "grown-up discussion" is needed down there long before the referendum? I have to judge from rabid posters on blogs (not a pretty sight!)

Not that I want the English to grow up yet! I'm fine pleased with the complete blanking of the issue, or Blimpish rants, being the voice of England. :-)
 
 
# Ed Targett 2011-09-13 16:32
Thanks Oldnat.

I think there's next to none, if I'm going to be brutally honest, or at least not in my fairly diverse milieu.

When I've tried to bring this discussion up with colleagues/acquaintances, there are two responses: Either "Well they can sod off, we don't bloody need them anyway" type-ranting or just incredulous: "They couldn't manage without our subsidies anyhow... Are they going to have their own army?" guff. (I paraphrase crudely, but you get the idea...)

One of your contributors here has written to me in a personal capacity saying: "The big problem from a Scottish perspective of federalism is that the arrangement would break down the moment Westminster decided to embark upon some new foreign adventure, and the Scots would say “naw, ye cannae”.

For me that would be one of the key attractions of a federal arrangement. With a senate managing affairs such as foreign policy weighted equally between the constituent parts of the federation that anti-imperial Scottish voice could ideally rein in some of the excesses of Westminster. (If we can't stop them, could you, please?!)

The big question from my end is what it means to be English, as opposed to British. I think there is a real need for a reclamation/exploration of an English history that is not associated with the British establishment.

To that end I've been dipping into Christopher Hill's excellent "The World Turned Upside Down: Radical Ideas During the English Revolution" for inspiration. But with two toddlers to take care of and a demanding job in a true blue area, it's a labour of love I can tell you...
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2011-09-13 19:35
Ed - I posted a fuller response on the article at the Nation of Change site (under my proper name) as far as a federal UK my own view is:

"The time for a considered response for a federated UK was from 2007 onwards. Sadly the UK Government sought the opposite track to restrict and attempt to turn back the devolution process with respect to Scotland by bringing forward the current Scotland Act Amendment Bill going through Westminster.In its current form this will fail, not because Westminster will not pass the bill but because the sovereign Scottish Government will vote to block the bill, with out major alterations. The Crown will not give the Bill Royal Assent because to do so breeches the Crown's relationship and separate agreement with the sovereign Scottish people."

The horse is well and truly gone, the federal solution is not likely - not because the Scots would not go along with it (it is the majority choice in most polls) but an English Parliament would remove the last tawdry veneer of Westminster's claimed over all sovereignty. To create a federation would require both the Scottish and English 'Claim of Right' statutes to be repealed because currently the UK is a Union of nation states each with their unique Law and constitutional practice.

For Westminster to take a federal path to prevent the break up is akin to turkey's voting for Christmas.
 
 
# oldnat 2011-09-13 22:22
I'm a fan of Christopher Hill. Having been given the role of advocating his view in a debate with him chairing the tutorial, I was quite chuffed to have him tell me to desist from ardent argument, to allow the other side a word in.

Not only have I not changed over the years, but having been told to shut up by the great man, I happily ignore all lesser beings telling me to do the same.
 
 
# Fungus 2011-09-13 16:52
Why are we talking federations? Why should we not have full control of everything our country does? I don't care if it's regional, countrywide or whatever, it's nothing more than the re-branding of the United Kingdom. What sort of powers would such a federation have? How far would these powers creep in the future?

We have had over 300 years of going cap in hand to Westminster do we want another 300 years of asking some federation if they minded whether we did this or that? Me, I want an fully independent Scottish republic making our own way in the world according to our laws, our standards and behoven to no one.

I don't see these ideas coming from Scottish writers mind you, maybe it's just separation anxiety. My dog gets it, she pulls the coats off the coat rack and hides her head under them. Sound familiar?
 
 
# exel 2011-09-13 19:22
Fungus 2011-09-13 16:52
“Why are we talking federations? Why should we not have full control of everything our country does? I don't care if it's regional, countrywide or whatever, it's nothing more than the re-branding of the United Kingdom. What sort of powers would such a federation have? How far would these powers creep in the future?”

What is your version of the future system of government of Scotland then?

As I see it, everyone who advocates Independence first and then sort out a written codified constitution is also advocating rebranding.

The only difference will be we will have a unicameral parliament in Holyrood, operating under the same flawed party dictatorships. It will be top down dictatorial rule (as now) with no way of the will of the sovereignty of the people being upheld once they have put one of the parties in power.

In the Federal System the senates’ (regional parliaments) would have fiscal powers then the people would have more say in how their taxes were spent.

If Scotland was independent under such a set up money could be approved on request by Holyrood (Congress?) from the regional parliaments, for such things as defence, foreign policy etc.
 
 
# Fungus 2011-09-14 00:21
Quoting exel:
As I see it, everyone who advocates Independence first and then sort out a written codified constitution is also advocating rebranding.


The way I see it is that without independence you have nothing. You may wish to sit down for a few years and hammer out the minutiae of a written codified constitution and have the Judean's People's Front v the People's Front of Judea argument but it will get you nowhere without independence. Indeed Westminster would love to see it I would imagine.

Meanwhile we have the greatest opportunity in 307 years for Scotland to become a free nation again. What's more a free nation under a democratically elected parliament, elected by proportional representation, which the people of many a country wish for.

As Horace said ...carpe diem. Once we solve the big problem then we can start tinkering with the details.
 
 
# exel 2011-09-14 00:57
Fungus 2011-09-14 00:21
“Meanwhile we have the greatest opportunity in 307 years for Scotland to become a free nation again. What's more a free nation under a democratically elected parliament, elected by proportional representation, which the people of many a country wish for.”

But what is it that you wish to be free of? The union I presume.

Because the political system used in the union has been corrupted by the existing political classes (the political parties) does not mean that simply leaving the union will make us any freer.

The reason the present system is not working is that we do not have a set of rules by which we can control the excesses of those who govern.
 
 
# Fungus 2011-09-14 09:32
Exel I agree wholeheartedly that we need a proper, written constitution, but this is for after independence not before. Indeed I would be open to a senatorial type of parliament allowing all regions of the country an equal say and share in our riches. But after we are independent when we have the time and powers to do so properly and without outside interference.

You make it sound as if we are blindly marching into some facist state but it is not so.
 
 
# exel 2011-09-14 10:30
Fungus 2011-09-14 09:32
“Exel I agree wholeheartedly that we need a proper, written constitution, but this is for after independence not before. Indeed I would be open to a senatorial type of parliament allowing all regions of the country an equal say and share in our riches. But after we are independent when we have the time and powers to do so properly and without outside interference.
You make it sound as if we are blindly marching into some facist state but it is not so.”

We are really not so far apart Fungus. I think our only real difference is: the way to achieve Independence.

If the nationalist supporters here are correct, I very much doubt they are, the Scottish electorate will vote for Independence without first being given a voice on how we are to be governed in the future.
I do not think they are that stupid. The present SNP government have the floor. They can initiate a constitutional convention to produce a written codified constitution for the approval of the people of Scotland in the 2 years minimum, before they ask the question. Why do they not do so?

I do not say we are heading for a “Fascist State” but we are in grave danger of being sold a pup.
By that I mean the single house (unicameral) parliament at Holyrood encourages the party in power to act exactly like Westminster, a party dictatorship.
 
 
# velofello 2011-09-13 17:28
fungus : We are discussing federation and most of us are dismissing the concept, as you state, as a re-branding of the UK.
In a TV play some years back a young woman asked her boyfriend "How many sausages do you want? Don't care, as long as its more than my share". he replied..
That is how I feel about Scotland's relationship with England. England will take more than its share and dress the situation up as a United Kingdom.
 
 
# Saltire Groppenslosh 2011-09-13 18:36
My take on the West Lothian question is simple.

They interfere in our country.

So that gives us a straightforward right to meddle in theirs.

Simples...
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2011-09-13 20:07
Every time I read or hear the West Lothian Question mentioned, I remember the man who raised the question. Without ever realizing it, he taught a lesson I never forgot.

Tam was my form teacher for two years. One day in class he walked in when there was a usual teenagers rammy in progress. He must have recognised my voice and singled me out. "Were you shouting ?" he wanted to know. "No Sir" I said. I lied.

Someone was going to get belted and I didn't fancy it, so I denied it a few times. Tam seldom belted pupils, and then, only when necessary to control his charges. I got it only a couple of times in the four years he taught me. Well deserved I can add.

Now, I knew and Tam knew, that I was being ecconomical with the truth as they call lies in Westminster, because I wasn't the only culprit.

"Get back to your seat" he told me, and that was the end of it, for Tam.
For me it was a lesson in life I've never forgot. It was up to me to learn the lesson.

Say and do what you like, believe in what you like, but be honest and live with your words and actions. Don't lie your way out of anything. It will haunt your conscience forever.

Tam was I believe one of the very few MP's who conducted himself with absolute honour as an MP. Now I don't agree with all of Tams political views, but he will always have my sincere respect. He taught me a real lesson, and he lives by his word.

Thank you Sir.
 
 
# Kinghob 2011-09-14 00:47
"The west lothian PROBLEM" eh?

The poor English lass has the wrong target in sight over the actual concept of paying for university tuition over not paying and having the Government reserve a sum of money (taxes) to prioritise education.

She should have been advocating free university education from her government, benefitting all rather than doing a folks and demanding that people living in Scotland (and that includes English Welsh and NI born folk) PAYING so we are as backward as westminster with our education policies!

I despair the students of today, or at least those that are too often quoted on news sites.........
 
 
# Kinghob 2011-09-14 00:55
Enoch Powell coined the term West Lothian Question did he not after hearing the Tam Dalyell speech mate?

Dalyell's predisposition to not use S and M on his pupils (most of the time) doesn't impress me as I wouldn't lay a finger on my own child let alone believe I had the right to assault someone else's child.

I got caned (in England) and belted (in Scotland) plenty of times....taught me naff all as anybody can see, and we have moved on by banning it as a useless preventative measure....I laughed out loud on getting the belt and said 'thank you sir-please may I have another?" on occasion as a tribute to "IF" from the early seventies, plenty of kids saw that movie.

When you got to 14 and had the testosterone and 'baws' are applied, the belt or cane wasnae scary enough bar a few minutes of acute pain, like when you walked into a lamppost or something, I preferred the teachers gaining the respect of the pupils in other ways.

The good teachers always managed to do that one important thing.

The futility of punishment in schools is obvious and thankfully in the past.

The West Lothian question is one that Labour, least of all, can justify since they are the most guilty party of Scottish MP's consistently implementing it against England and Wales, tuition fees being an infamous example of its misuse.

Yet the SNP get the media spotlight, that persistent negative spotlight on WLQ and almost any issue..........

Not quite right is it?
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2011-09-14 08:06
Hi Kingbob,
You sound like a real hardman....mmmm I wonder.
BTW the SNP members never vote at Westminster on England only questions.

TD certainly asked the question and pointed out the problem, a few others including Ennoch P have been attributed with puttung the lable on on it.
 
 
# mealer 2011-09-14 07:28
I think the majority of Scots would choose federation,if given the choice.But I dont think Westminster will offer it,unless it was so biased towards England as to be unacceptable to the Scots.In which case the Scots would soon want to move on to full independence.
I'm all for federation if Holyrood gets a veto on everything,incl uding defence and foreign affairs and all federal budgets.I cant see the English going for that,and nor should they.I'd also need repeal of the act of settlement,a new national anthem and a redesign of the union flag.
 
 
# Fungus 2011-09-14 09:39
Why would you want federation? What advantages to Scotland would there be in a federation over being independent?

For instance you say Holyrood should have a veto on defence. Imagine the scenario where the Scottish government tells the rest of the federation to get Trident out of the Gareloch. They discuss it, decide that they still need a nuclear capability but England, NI and Wales don't want it in their waters so Scotland is voted down.

What use is that?. We need to make our own decisions about how our country is run without deference to anyone else. Only full independence will give us that.
 
 
# RaboRuglen 2011-09-15 10:09
Hi there,

I cannot conceive any purpose in discussing "federation" of any sort within the UK. Because, quite simply those self-serving, greedy, corrupt, barstedwards in Westminster (and many of them are Scots "representing" Scottish constituencies) will never cede one iota, not one morsel, of power that is not seized from them - be it by referendum (Independence or otherwise) or UDI. It's just not in their nature.

We only have Devolution because they conceived it as a means of stopping the Independence movement while at the same time remaining in control.

Only they can cede further powers, which they wont. Only we can take Independence, which I hope fervently we will - and soon.

Regards,
 
 
# sneckedagain 2011-09-16 15:30
mealer

What you describe is independence.

What might be useful is a confederal British Isles - like the Nordic union and including Ireland - which means that INDEPENDENT countries freely agree to sensibly share some functions
 

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