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By Gerry Hassan, The Scotsman, June 16th 2012

The times they are a changing all over the world from Greece and Spain to the USA and China.

There is unrest, voices of protest rising and authorities reacting with confusion as they cling to the wreckage of failed economic orthodoxy.

At the same time the battle of Scotland unfolds; one which isn’t life or death or black and white thankfully. But to some it seems that way.

The official independence campaign saw John Swinney this week declare his support for a ‘highly integrated UK financial services market’; Alex Salmond was sanguine at Leveson when asked about British or Scottish media solutions. This isn’t exactly the separatist fanaticism painted by some opponents.

The pro-union campaign with their ‘positive’ slogan, ‘Better Together’ are portraying a ‘Better Yesterday’ Britain, the mythical land of post-war social democratic fairness and order which never really existed and which we can’t return to.

The contours are clear. We have two significantly flawed campaigns facing each other, both of which are conservative and cautious, high on rhetoric but little substance. This is CFC Scotland: content free campaigns and we have to be wary they don’t harm irreversibly our political environment!

Neither side seemingly has much appetite to address the big challenges and issues Scotland is going to face. Much easier for each to pose an abstract vision of independence versus a complete fantasyland version of the union.

Scotland’s future should instead be about bringing to the fore the questions we face as a society. Then we could work out which kind of constitutional settlement most aids the kind of Scotland we aspire to.

These will include some of the fundamentals which are shaping our society. There are the demographic pressures building in Scotland. We have an ageing population as more of us live longer, with resulting pressures on public services which are difficult for politicians to address because elderly voters turn out more to vote. Look at once rapid right-winger Michael Forsyth defend bus passes for the affluent older voter!

There is how we nurture young people. It is true that public bodies now talk of early years intervention, but we need to address more important things, the power of emotional literacy, the issue of love, play and relationships.

We have huge strains and tensions in our democratic system for all the rhetoric of ‘new politics’ a decade ago. Scotland is a truncated democracy where the voices of ‘forgotten Scotland’ have been ignored by our political class for at least a generation.

Then there is the size and nature of our public sector and how we afford it. We will soon face the biggest public spending cuts since the war, and somehow we have to find a way to avoid the twin cul-de-sacs of the accountant-consultant mindset and the traditionalist defend everything approach.

Related to this is the question of distributional choices and consequences. The people who gain most from our public services are the middle class who know how to work the system, advocate and protect themselves; and the people who it least helps are those who most need it. We need to start revisiting this and asking if affluent Scots cannot make a contribution to the greater good.

Baby boomer Scotland is one group who are asset rich and gained from the bulge in property prices, and who could contribute something back to help young people get into the housing and job markets.

There is the question of how we want to do business. After the crashes of RBS and Rangers FC, two of the most totemic Scottish global brands can’t we at least reflect on the limits of freewheeling socially irresponsible financial bubble capitalism? These giants were lauded and beyond criticism until they fell, so might there not be an old-fashioned morality tale in all this?

What this tells us is that we need to get explicit in a debate about Scotland’s future and talk about what different futures might look like. We cannot hark back to the past. Part of Scottish opinion seems to permanently live in the world of 1945-75 and yearn for the return of the British post-war settlement and the ordered, managed society which went with it.

We cannot go back to the near past because it was a product of numerous factors one of which was the nature of the international system of global capitalism with fixed exchange rates. All of this began to fall apart in 1971 with the abandonment of the Bretton Woods world system.

We have to aim our aspirations and dreams higher than some do and their constant nostalgia about what anti-Tory Scotland or ‘civic Scotland’ did in the 1980s. Some of the leading participants in the Scottish Constitutional Convention, a talking shop of the elect (and non-elected) seem to have never stopped talking about it since.

We can’t have pseudo-participative democracy forums or the Potemkin village gathering of ‘civic Scotland’ as the answer. That is what one version of the great and good have always done: talked the peoples’ talk while hoovering up the committee places and making sure they remain centrestage.

Instead, we have to try to change and widen this debate from the 1980s frame of mind (and in some case, same personnel). It isn’t an accident that there is no pro-independence think tank, or a Scottish equivalent of Compass, the imaginative centre-left group. There were calls to set up a Scottish Citizens movement by some of the churches based on London Citizens, the powerful grass roots organisation, but the London group proved to be insensitive to Scottish interests and blocked it.

Independence and pro-union supporters have to recognise that unionism and nationalism are not enough on their own to debate and decide the future. We need different ideas: communitarianism, self-determination, new economic thinking.

Fundamental to this is the relevance of empathy, dialogue and listening, and being able to recognise that whatever your views the other side(s) have a rationale and legitimacy. Too many nationalists think there is no case for the union, and there are too many unionists who have no insight into the power and pull of the call for independence.

I think we need firstly, a campaign against CFC (content free campaign) Scotland and secondly, one for a different Scotland. That requires a real debate. One where we pose the difficult, painful choices about what kind of Scotland first and foremost, and ask ourselves what do we want to be? From that we could then explore whether we want to be independent or not. And in the process we will have positively sketched out the kind of future we want and shown a self-government of the mind which will aid us getting to where we want.


Courtesy of Gerry Hassan - http://gerryhassan.com

Comments  

 
# WRH2 2012-06-17 21:47
"Scotland’s future should instead be about bringing to the fore the questions we face as a society. Then we could work out which kind of constitutional settlement most aids the kind of Scotland we aspire to."

The answer to what kind of constitutional settlement or future we aspire to is quite simple - Independence. That in my view, has to be the starting point, then we can move on to decide how we order our society. Without being able to control our own affairs everything is going to be wishful thinking. To me that is the crucial point we need to get over to people during the next two years. No one can tell us what the future holds, but we will be able to deal with it more effectively if we govern ourselves. Anything short of independence is a waste of time.
 
 
# Davy 2012-06-17 22:52
A fair Scotland both socially and economicly, an honourable Scotland in both thought and deed, an Independent Scotland willing and able to decide its own path among the nations of this world.

A place where my son and his friends will never feel agrieved about who runs their country.

My Scotland, my dream, my hope, my country.
 
 
# call me dave 2012-06-17 23:25
Bravo Davy !

Straight from the heart.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-06-18 00:09
Gerry

There is another way to look at this issue.

You suggest that "we" should consider what we want to discuss and only then the political forum in which it should be discussed.

This seems a strange concept. If "we" don't first discuss who the "we" are that will take the decisions, then my "we" will continue to be overwhelmed by the "we" that Mundell/Lamont/Finnie consider as "we".

Complex -aint it!
 
 
# jockotheland 2012-06-18 00:27
Quoting Davy:
A fair Scotland both socially and economicly, an honourable Scotland in both thought and deed, an Independent Scotland willing and able to decide its own path among the nations of this world.

A place where my son and his friends will never feel agrieved about who runs their country.

My Scotland, my dream, my hope, my country.

More of this sentiment needed - forget the details - a broad brush is needed at this point in time.....
Can I use the quote Dave? I'm promoting Independence in a country whose people mostly think of Alba as Scotlandshire
 
 
# Davy 2012-06-18 10:18
jockotheland, feel free to use anything.
 
 
# BillCo 2012-06-18 10:52
We're just five minutes into what is going to be a long campaign and all we get is that the big issues haven't been debated, not enough information is forthcoming, nothing has been thought through, and now from Gerry 'content free campaign'.

The reason we are having a long campaign is precisely in order to allow an extensive debate on all the subjects relating to the referendum decision.

It doesn't help that most newspapers and broadcasting media are in the 'No' camp and over-dosing their articles with obfuscation, lies, phoney statistics and unbridled pro-union propaganda.
 
 
# Jamieson 2012-06-18 11:16
I've said it before, there is no point in the SNP bringing out details of any policies with 2 years still to go. All that would happen is that the unionists would nit-pick against everything ad nauseam leading eventually to utter boredom with the campaign. Keep it simple for the time being with broad brush proposals.
 
 
# Macart 2012-06-18 11:22
I'm too damned poor to care about a pension, or savings, or property. What I know about finance, economics and currency you could write on the back of a postage stamp. History? A reasonable grasp and international law? Jings, not a jot of knowledge. But I can tell you what I'd want for my country.

I'd want a Scotland where my vote counts and my kids are entitled to the education my tax pays for.

I'd want a Scotland that stands on its own two feet and isn't regarded as a sponging lodger, one that cares for its elderly and infirm.

I'd want a Scotland that doesn't house WMDs and does not participate in illegal wars.

I'd want a Scotland that is confident of itself and its place in the world offering help and friendship where it can.

I'd want a Scotland whose parliament is directly answerable to its people and represents the people under its care.

I'd want a Scotland that is forward thinking, innovative and industrious.

All these big questions Gerry that you say we need answers to. Surely the principle is that we should be doing all of the above for ourselves anyway. We just need to say yes to have a crack at it.
 
 
# BillCo 2012-06-18 13:52
I'll second that, Macart.
 
 
# Silverytay 2012-06-18 11:33
DAVY & MACART
2 very good posts .
You are both putting into words what the majority of us who frequent this site want .
 
 
# WRH2 2012-06-18 11:44
Or as my Dad would have said, "You're putting the cart before the horse, Gerry". We need to be independent before we can shape our own future.
 
 
# exel 2012-06-18 12:11
Macart 2012-06-18 11:22
“I'm too damned poor to care about a pension, or savings, or property. What I know about finance, economics and currency you could write on the back of a postage stamp. History? A reasonable grasp and international law? Jings, not a jot of knowledge. But I can tell you what I'd want for my country.”

I agree with you, that all of the above are all things that government should be responsible for. Whether we are governed from Westminster or Holyrood, bickering about who has the best policies before the referendum is a waste of time.

But your list of “wants” is a different matter. In my opinion most of the list can be addressed by a written codified constitution.

So the question the YES/NO campaigns should be answering is “What is the best route to self determination for Scotland”?

Certainly not the “PSYCHO BABBLE” reported in to-days HERALD.
 
 
# Macart 2012-06-18 13:44
@ Silverytay

Appreciated

@ exel

No arguments there exel. I think Mr Robertson's piece which you commented on showed how it was possible and even desirable to provide one ahead of the referendum. I have always put independence ahead of constitution in timing for two reasons myself.

a. I mistrust Westminster just that much, I wouldn't consider being part of a political union with it any longer than is necessary. I simply don't believe a federated and fair UK is possible whilst that blight on the Thames exists. Therefore I opt for option two - independence and the possibility of devolving powers properly to regional and community levels through discussion and consultation.

b. Top down construction of the constitution is out of the question. I'd much rather a second consultation had been launched asking the public for their views on a constitution based on various drafts or suggestions made available as example. I had not thought that the current timetable would allow for this, but am willing to be persuaded otherwise.

As you said there is still time, but one way or another I would still opt for the split from Westminster politics.
 
 
# exel 2012-06-18 14:22
Macart 2012-06-18 13:44
"a. I mistrust Westminster just that much, I wouldn't consider being part of a political union with it any longer than is necessary. I simply don't believe a federated and fair UK is possible whilst that blight on the Thames exists. Therefore I opt for option two - independence and the possibility of devolving powers properly to regional and community levels through discussion and consultation."

I understand your mistrust of the Westminster system; we all agree it is broken. But is it not the case that what you call option2 is simply more of the same from Holyrood?

A written constitution can make “the possibility of devolving powers properly to regional and community levels through discussion and consultation” A certainty.

I say again “Why must we vote for independence before we discuss what CONSTITUTES an Independent Scotland and how it is governed?

“b. Top down construction of the constitution is out of the question. I'd much rather a second consultation had been launched asking the public for their views on a constitution based on various drafts or suggestions made available as example. I had not thought that the current timetable would allow for this, but am willing to be persuaded otherwise.”

We still do not know the “analysed result” of the first consultation. I made no mention of “Top down construction of the constitution”, but since you see it as a problem, I would advocate referring the task to the Constitutional Commission for Scotland and a public debate

“As you said there is still time, but one way or another I would still opt for the split from Westminster politics.”

I say so again Macart, but long before the die is set for “the split”
 
 
# Macart 2012-06-18 15:51
@ exel

The 'top down' point was raised by Mr Robertson in his article, which I agreed with in my own post under same.

You once said to me a good while ago you'd vote for independence but not till all other avenues or options had been explored and exhausted and not at just any cost. (apologies if I have misremembered) You are a better and more thoughtful man than I exel. I would vote for independence even if it meant sticking with a similar construction of politics in the short term, simply because I feel that our own national politics is far more socially aware and community minded than that generated by Westminster.

I say again I'd be delighted to see Mr Robertson's idea and your favoured plan of progress come to fruition, but with or without it I'd vote for the split and work at it minus the shadow of Westminster.
 
 
# Angus 2012-06-18 13:22
Usual Gerry stuff, idealism with no pragmatic ability whatsoever and class, class, class.
 
 
# exel 2012-06-18 13:46
Jamieson 2012-06-18 11:16
“I've said it before, there is no point in the SNP bringing out details of any policies with 2 years still to go. All that would happen is that the unionists would nit-pick against everything ad nauseam leading eventually to utter boredom with the campaign. Keep it simple for the time being with broad brush proposals.”

Yes, much better to keep the “powder dry” and the “mushrooms in the dark”.
 
 
# Jamieson 2012-06-18 19:37
There will be a large number of weeks just before the Referendum when serious campaigning will take place. That will be the time to add details to the proposals. Your comment suggests a unionist bent as only they continually harp on and on asking for details, which is laughable when they won't (can't?) give any details about the benefits of remaining in the union.
 
 
# brusque 2012-06-18 15:30
Not at all Exel.

Much better not to stoop to the kind of lows the Unionist Parties are capable of.

If I have any criticism of the SNP, it is that they do not "appear" to be fighting back against the lies and obfuscation of the Unionists - and primarily the Labour Party in Scotland.

I understand why they don't; a campaign of negativity and abuse will never win anyone round, and Johann Lamont is the SNPs best weapon in that regard.

Scotland is not some political football, to be kicked and fouled whenever the Unionists feel like it.

It is my home. The place I was born in, that I love, and where I want our children and grandchildren to grow strong and healthy. There is no secret to why I love Scotland; it's very simple:

God mentioned to one of his angels that he was going to give Scotland beautiful mountains, magnificent scenery, healthy fertile soil, clean fresh water, seas filled with wonderful seafood, forests filled with strong sturdy trees, and the people an inbuilt sense of value, fairness & goodwill.

The angel asked " God, don't you think you're being a bit generous to the Scots"

"Not at all" God replied " Wait till you see the neighbours I'm giving them !


OK, the old ones are the best:-)
 
 
# GrassyKnollington 2012-06-18 15:52
Actually this continual call for a debate from political commentators like Gerry and Lesley Riddoch is beginning to seem a bit cynical.

Anyone with a partially functioning brain in Scotland knows that a debate cannot be had with people like Johann Lamont, Ruth Davidson or Willie Rennie.

Bringing in the London heavies like Ian Davidson or Margaret Curran to the "debate" on our constitutional future, would be equally futile as well as nastier.

The unionists don't want a debate because they don't want a referendum.

There is absolutely no equivalence between the "sides" here, none.

Can we please stop pretending there is.
 
 
# Edulis 2012-06-18 16:52
Gerry has to make a living so obfuscation is part of his way of opening out discussion. The more words are floated in the debate the more Gerry can earn his corn.

If you want a look at Unionist tactics take a look at the debate this afternoon on the £1.1 Bn expenditure on nuclear submarines in anticipation of so-called gate decision on Trident renewal in 2016. Any SNP contribution was immediately put down by Tories, Ming Campbell, the Labour front bench and yet there were real questions to address. Angus Robertson asked the perfectly legitamate question of why in the face of almost wholesale rejection by all Scottish MPs, MSPs, STUC, the Churches and civil society, the Government with the help of the Labour front bench were forging ahead.
 
 
# ttwapies 2012-06-18 17:02
A round of applause for Macart's wish list.

I am pretty much a essentialist in outlook, my primary concern being that the basics are provided for, with the rest following as a consequence. Dangerously close to the trickle-down myth touted for so many years, but then I'm a child of Thatcher.

I have looked forward to the demise of what is a long-outdated political union. One which is moraly, politicaly and ecomonicaly bankrupt. I do not wish to be subject to an establishment which protects the interests of post-colonial empire through a combination of NGOs, security services, private banks, and of course the good old BBC.

Personaly, I would not know where to start if asked to draft a new constitution. However, there are lots of examples out there to cut and paste from, as has been pointed out in posts to previous NNS articles. This would be an iterative process, developing our understanding of the issues and possabilities as we go.

I think the most fundamental question that will need to be asked, and will probably be avoided like the plague, will determine whether there is a chance for Macart. Who will control the money supply. Will it be private banks or the people?
 
 
# Macart 2012-06-18 18:38
@ttwapies

That is 'the' question. Ideally you look to strike a balance in any walk of life. I'd like to believe however that our parliament in a newly independent Scotland would favour a constitution which derives its power from the people and not the financial marketeers or social elites, a parliament and politics of consensus.

Our politics tends to be naturally left of centre with a more socially responsible and community based ethic. We potentially have the chance here to make a constitution based on the ideals of social justice and inclusion. But we need to want it, we can't sit back and think, that's a nice dream but in the real world.....

There are, as we know examples near at hand where the small financially sound, socially just model has worked. Another good question might be, could we make it work too?

I think we can if we want to.
 
 
# exel 2012-06-18 20:57
Macart 2012-06-18 15:51
“You once said to me a good while ago you'd vote for independence but not till all other avenues or options had been explored and exhausted and not at just any cost. (apologies if I have misremembered) You are a better and more thoughtful man than I exel. I would vote for independence even if it meant sticking with a similar construction of politics in the short term, simply because I feel that our own national politics is far more socially aware and community minded than that generated by Westminster.”

You have not totally misremembered Macart. You are probably referring to the post debating who was more “cynical” you or me. I do not trust any of the political parties to deliver self determination.

However I do not subscribe to the notion that the union cannot work better for the peoples of the UK. The “Political System” is the problem.

The UK unwritten constitution has been high-jacked by the UK political parties and parliament cannot be held to account by the people other than at the time of a general election. In parliament, the party leader with the most seats is appointed by convention, not elected by Parliament or the electorate, and as Prime Minister, controls and appoints the executive, and thus essentially a party controls parliament. The situation is further exacerbated and democracy diminished, by the “Whip system” on party MPs to ensure the outcome of a vote which suits the party line. The fusion of powers currently controlled by the party leader in effect results in an elective dictatorship.

The democratic accountability and citizen involvement with the present system is minimal at best, resulting in apathy and indifference and a justifiable lack of trust in government by the voters.

It is not the union, it is the political system. The thirst for power by the political parties (and their backers) can be controlled by a written codified constitution.

It is your prerogative to vote as you wish, but more people will be convinced by a new system of government which they have had a hand in formulating.
 
 
# Macart 2012-06-18 21:31
Still not so far apart exel. I remember the discussion now. Dratted memory isn't what it was. :)
 
 
# Marga B 2012-06-18 21:19
You could say what is there to debate? Surely after independence Scotland does exactly what it does now plus the bit at the top, where the decisions that Scottish Westminster MPs have made for centuries, as part of a bigger team, get made in-house instead of being farmed out.

What is "content-free" about that? It sounds pretty comprehesive, concrete and understandable to me. All this "chicken-licken" stuff is unnecessary, as is the constant nattering of this author with his incurable "sky is falling in" syndrome, however fine a brain he obviously has.
 
 
# ttwapies 2012-06-18 21:25
@ Marga B

More of the same then, but with no one else to blame but ourselves.

Do you realy want your social policy to be defined by foreign currency speculators?
 
 
# Dougthedug 2012-06-18 21:34
Voting for or against an independent Scotland based on what sort of society you would like to see is valid but there is no guarantee that your preferred society is more or less likely to happen in an independent Scotland than in the Union. The only thing you can say is that a Scottish concept of society is much more likely to come about in an independent Scotland than in the Union. Then again that Scottish concept of society may not be yours.

The SNP can and do have policies on how they would like the dissolution of the Union to take place and on how an independent Scotland can transform its economy and society after independence but they can't promise anything in the referendum because this is a referendum on independence not on policy or society in a future independent Scotland. No-one knows who will be in power in Holyrood in an independent Scotland in ten years time. In exactly the same way the Unionist parties cannot promise what policies will be in place or what society will look like in the Union ten years down the line because they don't know who's going to be in power in Westminster.

The referendum vote is on whether Scotland wants independence and with it the ability of Scots to make decisions about Scotland in Scotland. This isn't a referendum where the winning party gets to govern or dictate how Scotland's society will be set up after independence, it's a referendum purely on the question of independence and the sovereignty of the Scottish people.

The problem Gerry, is that you're late to the party and the time for debate is pretty much over. We're now into the closing speeches and the single issue vote.
 
 
# exel 2012-06-18 23:33
Dougthedug 2012-06-18 21:34
“The referendum vote is on whether Scotland wants independence and with it the ability of Scots to make decisions about Scotland in Scotland. This isn't a referendum where the winning party gets to govern or dictate how Scotland's society will be set up after independence; it's a referendum purely on the question of independence and the sovereignty of the Scottish people.”

We can all have an opinion on what this referendum is about.

All you say in your version is that the vote is on:
1. “Whether Scotland wants independence (secession from the union)
2. “With the ability of Scots”, which Scots to makes decisions about Scotland in Scotland?

It is not:
”A referendum: where the winning party gets to govern or dictate how Scotland’s society will be set up after independence”. Where did winning party come in the debate?

Finally it is: “A referendum purely on the question of independence and the sovereignty of the Scottish people”

Clear as mud, what was the single issue and can we have that debate again please?
 
 
# Dougthedug 2012-06-19 08:01
exel:

"A referendum: where the winning side gets to govern or dictate how Scotland’s society will be set up after independence"

Fixed it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Clear as mud
I can't make the language any simpler. Sorry.

can we have that debate again please?
A re-run of the last three decades of debate and argument isn't possible. You must have had a thirty year blink and missed it.
 
 
# gt-cri 2012-06-19 11:45
"Independence and pro-union supporters have to recognise that unionism and nationalism are not enough on their own to debate and decide the future. We need different ideas: communitarianis m, self-determination, new economic thinking."

Of course, the above statement seems to slant to these ideals being mutually exclusive. Can't we, the debaters, democratically choose to cherry-pick the best solutions for Scotland from all, some or none of the above?

Methinks we can!
 

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