Banner

By a Newsnet reader
 
One of the original sins of our species is its inability to live in peace. The result is that much of what is written in human history is simply a history of warfare. 
 
The disdain for war was held by our great intellectual predecessors, yet for such a supposed abomination we sure do seem to be obsessed with war. 

Furthermore, warfare appears in many more guises than the destruction and waste of human talent as we know it, and it has granted credit for all sorts of great social change and then depicted as immoral. 

Humanity has always found out-clauses to explain its necessity and celebration and this paradox continues, as it always has, in American and British politics today.  If humanity’s fascination comes down to how war somehow reveals its best and worst qualities, this friendly letter touches upon Scotland’s need for adequate security in the event of independence. 

It does so to promote greater interest in the various defence and security issues that often come with an independent state.  Now that I have established myself as a brilliant critical thinker (that is sarcasm my friends), one will notice that the following is purely an opinion piece. Sent from southwest Asia, it is delivered with the best of intent.

From an economic perspective Unionists often maintain that Scotland is incapable of standing on its own two feet.  However, if we apply this questionable sentiment to the context of national defence and security, they just might have a case.  I base my current opinion purely on what I have seen, and not seen, from the SNP. 

It has been argued that independence for Scotland could leave the remainder of the UK (RUK) more vulnerable to terrorist attack due to the risk of communication failure between the network of UK and international intelligence services.  Furthermore, according to a 24 June article in The Herald, Tom Gordon wrote that,"Ministers explained 'National Security' was an area reserved to the UK Government ... [and] therefore, there had been no need to create documentation”.

Moreover, Gordon states that it was only last year when the SNP's majority win "necessitated the consideration of policies in a number of reserved areas" for the first time. 

Various criticisms continue to surface.  In defence of the SNP Angus Robertson, SNP Leader in Westminster and Scottish Shadow Minister for Defence and Foreign Affairs, has been a longstanding watchdog over the UK defence footprint in Scotland. His attention to detail is well noted and his record speaks for itself. 

However, with an autumn 2014 Scottish independence referendum on the foreseeable horizon, and the SNP restrained by limitations reinforced by the Scotland Act, Schedule 5, Part I, Paragraph 9 (1), a definitive and all-encompassing defence and national security policy for Scotland has failed to surface. 

When considering the independent state’s future security requirements one might place blame on Scotland’s current constitutional status in regards to the lack of groundwork, but that, as we all know, is ridiculous.  Various party manifestos have delved into the subject matter to a disturbingly limited extent, and while these documents are intended to provide general views of the perceived future, my highly limited experience with the SNP “defence working group”, and with others within the party structure, has lead to serious questions and concerns. 

I also would argue that, given my own experience, the current SNP government does not yet understand American, British or NATO military structure and/or protocol given its more recent request to visit Ramstein Air Base.  I will provide no further description about these assertions unless forced to do so.  

The vast majority of the Scottish electorate is well aware of the SNP’s staunch opposition to nuclear weapons on the Clyde and its increasing flirtation (if national media outlets are to be trusted) with NATO.  Arguably the Trident and Trident replacement nuclear issue, as well as ongoing UK military defence spending reductions, have distracted party leadership from addressing Scotland’s future security commitments, its relationship with the remainder of the United Kingdom (RUK) and the international community as well. 

With a massive plate of political issues set before the party, one could argue that non-security/defence related interests have allowed for the survival of the SNP’s dated, self-centred and incomplete defence theories.  Ultimately, the perceived "enslavement" to British nuclear defence policy and Scottish submission to distant NATO/American masters must be reconsidered, while realistic designs for Scottish defence and international cooperation are brought to the fore.
 
For whatever reasons a fool argues that Scotland is unworthy of independence, but the SNP does itself no favours when it has not yet mended together a coherent and sensible defence policy that not only caters to the needs of an independent Scotland, but to the wider security needs of the international community. 

Taking a moment to set aside the overarching economic issue of constructing a Scottish Defence Service (SDS), perhaps this void also stems from the lack of input from current or former military leadership.  A Scottish service member I have spoken with regarding the security issue expressed concern about what the SDS might actually represent: “my uniform is not for parades”. 

This statement, of course, stems from the pride one takes in his or her UK/NATO based responsibilities, though a skeptic might argue that such resentment stems from career preservation.  Yet one must understand that these individuals give their respect, service and lives to their country and they do not take this commitment lightly. 

This is not something easily dismissed.  Given its aspirations the SNP is currently responsible for providing a service where Scottish officers and enlisted are willing to serve with dedication and pride.  The SNP is responsible for providing a service that will allow Scottish officers and enlisted to perform their responsibilities to perfection. 

The SNP also is responsible for providing a service that Scottish officers and enlisted are willing to fight and die for.  Given Scotland’s vastly impressive military history and tradition, it is easy for one to assume that the SNP simply does not understand the military mindset, and has dragged its feet on this issue. 

In another conversation with a Scottish pilot downrange it was stated: “the graves of Scottish soldiers and sailors span the world, and I for one (nor my children), will not be part of some inferior product”.  I am paraphrasing here, and while the quote is not completely accurate the message I relay to you is flawless and clear.

Scottish academia’s contribution to the formation of national defence can be of immense value to the cause but these offerings do not replace, nor overshadow, the credentials earned through military leadership, deployments, diplomacy and decision-making processes.  As a former academic educated in Glasgow, deployed on several occasions and as many locations, stationed in Germany and working closely with command-based leadership (all while currently at the centre of various military operations within southwest Asia)…this thought never rang more true. 

The university is the academic’s bubble kingdom, whereas the AOR belongs to the air or battle field commander.  Furthermore, the defence laboratory where the academic works to develop new “toys” for the military is often run by a former battlefield commander.  And while it is certain that an independent Scotland will not seek to establish an excessive military capability, this does not absolve the government of its responsibility to provide security coverage for its citizens (home or abroad), maintain national sovereignty, defend national economic interests or assist with international security developments.  

We all know that Scotland is not Ireland and Scotland has its own unique considerations.  If an independent Scotland is to be considered an oil producing nation, and national wealth is largely attributed to this endeavour, someone from beneath the Mason-Dixon line might ask what kind of stupid do you have to be to leave the barn door open? 

Taking another impressive maxim from the library of US southern heritage, one might describe current SNP preparations as “shootin’ pool with a rope”.  That adage applies to a number of situations but I am sure you understand.  Nevertheless, previous offerings by the SNP, including cooperation with the Organisation for Security Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) or the Partnership for Peace Programme, did not offer influential security architecture during periods of regional or global crisis and were incapable of providing a robust military response to state-sponsored military action or terrorist activity. 

In fact, the OSCE is an international organisation that serves as a forum for political dialogue, while another previous SNP interest, the Western European Union (WEU), was a dormant European defence and security organisation with a limited Operational Rapid Reaction Force. 

On 30 June 2011 the WEU was officially declared defunct, as was the SNP’s potential for investment in this organization.  But somehow, the SNP still maintains its distance with NATO. 

So one might ask: how will an independent Scotland recover Scots being held hostage in locations across the globe when negotiations have failed?  What if the RUK does not grant an independent Scotland its “fair share” of military assets and Scotland is left deprived?

How might the NATO organisation (so long as Scotland is a member) encourage the RUK to “play fair” during negotiations over assets (or the UK nuclear deterrent) if Scotland gains independence?  How will the independent state provide humanitarian assistance without the proper airframes (C-17s or C-130s to name a couple), and who will defend/distribute these materials after these items have made their way to their appointed destinations? 

What uniquely European defence collective will readily provide KC-135s and airborne refueling operations for these airframes?  How does a newly independent Scotland meet a significant proportion of the economic requirements needed to reconstruct, refine and reinforce its own security architecture?

Given my own experience with the U.S. State Department and how it evaluates potential contributions to host-nation projects, does the SNP understand the US en-route (logistics) system and the geostrategic value Scotland may represent to NATO and the U.S.?  What should an oil-rich country previously exposed to terrorist attacks over Lockerbie and inside Glasgow International Airport consider to be the preferable security alliance option?  

While the contours of an indigenous European security capability remain painfully vague, the independent state has much to gain from full NATO membership.  I am not so sure the SNP is fully aware of this, nor am I confident that party leadership understands the far-reaching implications of its decisions when considering NATO. 

Having direct experience with anyone from the E-4 sheet metal worker to the upper echelons of NATO/USAFE leadership, the minority view of NATO and its “oppressive agenda” is based on myriad of misinformed and sometimes wildly exaggerated views. 

For the misinformed, NATO is an intergovernmental military alliance that constitutes a system of collective defence.  Its member states willingly agree to the requirements associated with mutual defense. 

To provide some additional “fun facts”, ten years ago NATO and the European Union signed a comprehensive package of arrangements under the Berlin Plus agreement in December 2002, where the EU was given the possibility to use NATO assets in case it wanted to act independently in an international crisis, on the condition that NATO itself did not want to act. 

Back to the point, I do understand that NATO’s nuclear capability represents a challenge to the SNP’s moral agenda and nuclear weapons do present serious questions.  How does working this issue from outside the NATO structure benefit the SNP?  Could the SNP establish greater influence if it worked within the NATO structure?

In all honesty, probability dictates that the SNP will have little influence over NATO nuclear status if working within the security alliance, and have NO influence if left standing outside NATO gates.  A bitter pill to swallow, but let us not rehash the same old nuclear debate yet again (years have been dedicated to this issue north of the Border), and let us not lose track of other highly important issues concerning the  independent state. 

I am under the impression the SNP fears losing a portion of its voting base (and its independent status) should it chose to join the “evil empire”. And if that is the case, and I myself cannot establish this as fact, it is, in my opinion, a simple case of schoolyard popularity over sensible citizenship. 

Given my own experience with a multitude of NATO issues I will spare you, the reader, any detailed explanation of the superficial issues covering membership or enlargement as there is a mass of general information readily available on the internet.  A certain number of the specific stumbling blocks that do arise during this process are not for the public domain (and each case is country specific), but in actuality, some of these issues may not be very interesting from either a reader or writer’s perspective. 

To go into these details merely presents something the Intel community commonly refers to as “data crush”, or an overabundance of information that simply leaves one wading in vast oceans of paper, video-feeds or both.  And while the UK nuclear deterrent and Scotland-NATO controversy serves as a barrier to the vast fields of advantage that come with NATO membership, the SNP continues to scratch its head. 

As I am currently deployed time does not grant me the opportunity to present issues such as the ongoing Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA), which has presented major shifts in the nature of warfare brought about by the innovative application of new technologies.  For those readers who have seen this phenomenon in the field, you are well aware of where this all is going and understand that the new RMA also is linked to current discussions under the label of Transformation and total systems integration in the US and NATO military structure. 

Any of Scotland’s politicos who are not aware of the robotics and technology push that is influencing current and future security environments serves as detriment to the so-called Silicon Glenn, and to the independent state’s own national security.  Moreover, information warfare is identified as another new warfare area. 

Although the critical value of information in warfare has been acknowledged since ancient times, warfare nowadays relies on information systems to an unprecedented degree.  Are the SNP defence “experts” aware of the potential for using information systems as a means of disrupting both civil and military information infrastructure, while in open warfare it includes assets employed for physically destructive means?

Does the “defence working group” consider how this might be employed against Scottish industrial, technological and/or financial interests? I myself doubt that they do, and yes, I am very familiar with Christopher Harvie’s No Gods and Precious Few Heroes, so arguing that industry died on the Clyde is missing the point. 

How might a Scottish intelligence agency interact within the NATO INTEL community, and is the SNP aware of the various responsibilities that come with collection, analysis, exploitation and dissemination of intelligence information, including human, signal, imagery, and measurement and signature intelligence? Just as important, how will the Scottish Intel community disperse its resources and allow the SDS (and/or other protective services) to execute its responsibilities of protecting its citizens, economy and sovereignty? By the way, Christopher is a brilliant fellow – just thought I would mention that.

I cannot recall who, but a journalist north of the Border recently wrote that “if the Union has been such a blessing for Scotland why do Unionists maintain that Scotland is still too weak to stand on its own two feet?

After three centuries, an answer is overdue.” I have presented my views about Scottish national security (in the event independence) to numerous forums over the past few years (some arenas placed higher than others, and sometimes in places outside what is currently referred to as the United Kingdom).  And while I myself have “no dog in this fight” I find myself continuously returning to this issue and expanding upon it for one reason or another. 

Given my experiences over the last few years, and the people I regularly engage with, the atmosphere tends to invigorate my interest in the subject.  Having lived in Scotland for many years, and still travelling to West Dumbartonshire or Argyll and Bute, given my above mentioned interests it is not uncommon for me to receive odd comments from people on both sides of the pond. 

And despite this peculiar place I often find myself in I firmly believe the SNP and its supporters have worked too hard to reach this very special point, only to fail.  Of course a “No” vote will not be primarily based on one simple issue, but failing the security interests of the Scottish collective is just another sure fire way to draw the negative response. 

Obviously, failure can take the form of numerous metrics depending on how one applies these measurements, and even if the independence referendum leads to an independent state, how successful was that referendum if the country is left vulnerable to various forms of aggression?

Broad interpretations and minimalist planning do not make for national security, and apologies to the SNP collective, but the organisation has not yet demonstrated the capability to lead the nation within an international, or even domestic military context thus far.  There are people of importance outside the United Kingdom that share this view. 

But Scotland has friends the world over and it might be time for the SNP to take in some of its Canadian, American, Australian and New Zealand friends with real world military and leadership experience.  While an efficient and effective SDS is an obvious marketing tool for the SNP, independence is a big boy’s party and achieving the free-state involves immeasurable dedication to the entire subject. 

That being said, this Fourth of July I will be eating gumbo under a boiling hot desert sun, enjoying American country music and wearing tartan shorts with my combat boots. 

I also will be wondering if Scotland will have its day too.

Comments  

 
# UpSpake 2012-06-30 18:57
It's ironic isn't it. The SNP have an excellent spokesman for Defence in Angus Robertson. He must find his role particualrly difficult when his party don't have a Defence policy. much to speak of. Neither do they have a Security policy which perhaps they see as one in the same ?. Don't know as they cannot seem to articulate one ?.

[Comment edited - We would kindly ask that you refrain from using the Newsnet Scotland comments facility to post links or repeat references to the SDA site.]
 
 
# scotknowhow 2012-07-01 13:14
Angus is good at looking back at the footprints but his skill as a guide forward is suspect until proven otherwise...
 
 
# oldnat 2012-06-30 20:00
Great article!

However, one qualification - it's not just the SNP which is "responsible for providing a service that will allow Scottish officers and enlisted to perform their responsibilitie s to perfection." It's the responsibility of every party aspiring to govern an independent Scotland.

However, I agree with your basic premise. The SNP is the lead party for independence, and it needs to have a credible defence and security policy in place, which it doesn't have at present.

Mind you, if the SDA policy is as good as Upspake says,then the SNP can simply adopt that.
 
 
# MacSenex 2012-06-30 20:16
A useful contribution to the debate, but don't assume the issues raised have not been considered and addressed. Nationalists inhabit every compartment of the British establishment. That fact poses a huge challenge to rUK.

RUK security for some time after Independence depends on mutuality as much if not more than Scotland's.

Is there any evidence of Scottish security and defence personnel being neutralised?



Is there any evidence of Scottish security and defence personnel being neutralised?
 
 
# maxstafford 2012-06-30 21:11
Whilst I share the view that we must address the issue of our defence requirements seriously and with urgency, I am somewhat uncomfortable with NATO as it currently stands. Whilst I understood its purpose during the Cold War which I accept as justifiable under the potential threat we faced then, I feel that the posture of the organisation has changed from defensive to aggressive, bearing in mind the largely 'out of theatre' operations it has conducted over the last 15 years in particular. Perceptions, of course, do not always accept the true reality of a situation as your contributor rightly states, but the somewhat reckless conduct of NeoCon administrations makes me somewhat reluctant for Scotland to join an organisation that so often seems used as a NeoCon 'tool of empire' in recent times. On the whole, however, the article does raise many excellent points. I would imagine however that Scotland's requirement for armed forces would be heavily weighted towards 'white water' naval, air, amphibious and special forces elements. We need great minds with good military experience working on this issue and fast.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-06-30 21:23
I got bored reading this. Why ?

Well not because it's not valid, nor pertinent, nor indeed factual, although not one figure or statistic is presented..
It just seems to me that the author is exactly the same type of person he rails against in his opening statements, 'One of the original sins of our species is its inability to live in peace' and The disdain for war was held by our great intellectual predecessors, yet for such a supposed abomination we sure do seem to be obsessed with war.


I think a fundamental value that has never been considered in any of the posts or articles that I have read on this site is that of looking at who and what we are. Like it or not, we are a product of this empire, of the UK, of it's history and of it's battles. It's time we realise that and take a good look in the mirror and realise we in Scotland display the same militaristic jingoism that we see elsewhere in the UK.

We do not have to have a defence force capable to take on international duties, or if we do, we can send in 50 troops and a couple of tanks. (I can already hear the screams from other posters). There's nothing wrong with that, does that make us cowards ? does that make us small ? does that lessen our standing in the international community ?

I think if some posters were to ask themselves honestly these questions, they would probably answer yes. If thats the case, then realise that and understand that the history of the UK's warmongering policies and bully boy tactics have sunk well and truly beneath your skins. You may claim to be for independence, and you probably are, but it's not just a Westminster government that we have to shake off, it's the nasty habits and ideas that have seeped into our culture that have to be addressed also.
 
 
# cadgers 2012-07-01 09:07
Hear, hear Tartanfever, You have managed to write what I was thinking very eloquently!
 
 
# scotknowhow 2012-07-03 07:00
Hello tartanfever
To an important extent you are missing miss the point...it is not the author who is railing himself, but human nature which rails against itself, a fact proven over and over throughout British and American (and HUMAN) history. It is this which necessitates the need for arms. Until that is no longer a necessity, an independent Scotland requires preperation - sad to say but "Bunnies hate fences until the wolves come round..."
 
 
# Desperate Dora 2012-06-30 22:34
I know very little about military matters,so I apologise in advance if my views seem naive or uninformed. However, I'm a little confused by this article.

It seems to me there is a world of difference between soldiers fighting in defence of their country, when that country is under direct attack, and soldiers fighting for the "interests" of that country or the allies of that country. Might it not be the case that the "interests" being fought for are those of large multinational corporations and is this is legitimate reason for servicemen to give up their lives?

Of all of the wars this country has fought in my lifetime, from the Korean War through to the current war in Afghanistan, I am not aware of Scotland ever being under direct attack.

These wars were often guided by US foreign policy rather than the UK's. And with respect to the Falklands War, Scotland is unlikely to fight a war such as this as it has no colonies to defend.

I am aware of only one deliberate terrorist attack in Scotland. I do not believe that the attack over Lockerbie was an attack on Scotland, just an unhappy matter of timing. However, the attack at Glasgow Airport was not actually prevented by the UK intelligence services, with all their knowledge.

An independent Scotland is unlikely to have a similar foreign policy to the current UK and its military services will be designed around the role we wish to play in the world.

The article above is interesting and knowledgeable, but it seems to assume that Scotland's interests and therefore defence strategy will be similar to the current UK's. I suspect it is more likely resemble those of small independent countries throughout Europe.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-07-01 06:44
Quote:
An independent Scotland is unlikely to have a similar foreign policy to the current UK and its military services will be designed around the role we wish to play in the world. The article above is interesting and knowledgeable, but it seems to assume that Scotland's interests and therefore defence strategy will be similar to the current UK's. I suspect it is more likely resemble those of small independent countries throughout Europe.


I think this is a very important point.

The article also seems to confuse the SNP and the future government of an independent Scotland. New political groupings will emerge and the SNP (+ some coalition partner(s)) may not be the government party so the SNP cannot decide in advance things like defence or written constitution, it's a job for the first parliament in an independent Scotland.

That said, as the main pro-independence party, the SNP needs to set out their vision and (broad) plans for a Scottish defence force (or constitution etc.) at some point. They've already done this in very broad terms but I'm sure voters would like a bit more detail before the referendum.
 
 
# maxstafford 2012-06-30 22:43
Defence is they key word for me, TF. I have no interest in getting involved in foreign adventures, but what I do care about is securing once and for all, that which rightly belongs to us from the grabbing hands of others. I have no desire to see the New Scotland striding the world like Caesar but I wish my country to have the strength to protect its territorial integrity from whichever direction an aggressor would approach. I only wish the ability to robustly fend off a 'bully boy'.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-06-30 22:59
While Defence (in the real meaning of that word, as opposed to the Nu-Speak of the UK - Defence = Attack) has to be the priority, this article raised related issues.

Potential attacks on Western countries won't suddenly exclude Scotland, just because we are independent. Assuming that jihadists are au fait with variations in the governance of the UK would be unwise.

Our energy installations serve more than Scotland. Western Europe needs them as well, so we need to be aware of that. The need for intelligence about potential threats seems obvious, and that will require co-operation with other countries. Being clear as to how that would happen seems a good idea.

I am less convinced by the author's wish that we have our own unique transport facilities to deliver aid to others. I can't imagine a situation where Scotland would uniquely be delivering aid to another country - we would be part of an international activity.

Of course, it might be that we have to deliver food parcels to London, when their corrupt finance industry economy collapses. In that case, we will have enough fuel to send lorries and trains to that devastated city.

I'd suggest boxes of haggis, labelled "A gift from your neighbours".
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-07-01 15:52
Very much agree with you, oldnat, especially this bit:
Quote:
I am less convinced by the author's wish that we have our own unique transport facilities to deliver aid to others. I can't imagine a situation where Scotland would uniquely be delivering aid to another country - we would be part of an international activity.


Finland, an independent, militarily non-alligned country of 5M people is active in overseas aid/peace-keeping (and some peace-'enforcing') missions through UN/EU/NATO co-operation. We have no overseas military transport capability because the purpose of our defence forces is to defend Finland. For overseas missions, the transport issue is solved by international co-operation.

Finnish defence budget is approximately 1.5% of GDP, some 2.7B euros. That gives us a standing defence force (army, navy, air force) of ~16,000, bit over half of which are actual military personnel. The rest of the peace-time defence force of some ~40,000 consists of conscripts. Military service is compulsory for all males and voluntary for females over 18 yr, for 6-9-12 months.

The war-time strength would be ~300,000 with all the trained reservists called in.

There is restructuring going on in the Finnish military at the moment, but on the whole it is felt that our military capability is adequate for our needs. Even considering who our eastern neighbour is.

UN/EU/NATO co-operation offer career opportunities for professional soldiers (like my cousin's husband, who's been deployed in Afghanistan twice with the joint Nordic peace-keeping force) and the high motivation and high-tech professionalism of the regular staff is aided by the skills and high will of the conscripts/reservists to provide adequate military defence for our country.

Once again, you have to remember who our eastern neighbour is. WWII, or Winter War and Continuation War, as it is known in Finland, created a national 'meme' that lives on to this day. I have no doubt that every Finn would defend our small, independent country, our independence, till death, if it came to that. But there’s no will to attack anybody. The majority of Finns are against NATO membership, even if one of the major political parties is (secretly, or not so secretly) flirting with the idea.

The Finnish Air Force has 50+ F-18C Hornets (actual fight aircraft) plus training and transport aircraft, the Navy and Coastal Defence have a selection of vessels - small boats by UK Navy standards, but just what we need for patrolling the Gulf of Finland, the Gulf of Bothinia and the Northern Baltic. An aircraft carrier (as if we could ever afford one!) would be very unweildly in our small seas full of tiny islands and rocks, especially in the pack-ice or solid ice we get almost every winter. The national fleet of ice-breakers is not military but civil, to assist merchant shipping. Our small Army is very mobile but has had to rethink because of the Ottawa Treaty. (AP mines along the eastern border used to be the mainstay of our defence.)

The Finnish model of defence forces is probably unpalatable to most Scots - the compulory conscript bit, which takes nearly all young men out of further/higher education for 6, 9, or 12 months (in Finland we say it gives them time to grow from boys to men). However, it’s a cultural thing. Finnish employers like '(well) done' military service on a young man's CV, it's the default. Maybe 20% are excused on health or religious/ethical grounds and later at job interviews have to explain themselves.

Most young guys are eager to do the military service, it’s a blokey thing, bit of rough camping and getting to shoot a real gun, a rite of passage – not that easy for the non-blokey young women who chose to do the military service!

Sweden used to have a similar conscript system, I’m not sure what’s the situation now. I think they're tending more to a professional army. Norway and Denmark are NATO members so they don’t compare.

Quote:
Of course, it might be that we have to deliver food parcels to London, when their corrupt finance industry economy collapses. In that case, we will have enough fuel to send lorries and trains to that devastated city. I'd suggest boxes of haggis, labelled "A gift from your neighbours".


Ha ha, love this bit! Especially as I like haggis. And the delicious mashed neeps, very similar to a traditional Finnish dish.
 
 
# Macart 2012-06-30 23:15
Literally 'War and Peace' and quite a read. The author of course has made some excellent points which do require answers. I suspect though that the SNP may have more detailed plans than are currently open to public and opposition scrutiny. They have proven reasonably well prepared and disciplined in most other areas and this is a long haul campaign. Its certainly an area I'd prefer to see some more pro active campaign detail on.
 
 
# maxstafford 2012-06-30 23:20
To use an old military term, I hope that they are simply 'keeping their powder dry' until an appropriate moment.
 
 
# bringiton 2012-06-30 23:46
The author of this piece makes the same mistake that many others do.Namely conflating the SNP political party with that of a future independent Scottish Government.
He sounds a bit like an English military advisor telling the future government of North America that because they have no plans to deal with the English or French or Spanish military that they should call it a day.
Doubt that the present day citizens of the USA would agree with his position.
A future Scottish government will take it's advice from professional advisers as to what is our best configuration and posture with regard to the rest of the world.
To demand precise answers to this question as to what the world situation will be in 2 or 3 years time is not being realistic
and would be difficult for even an established administration with it's attendant corp of advisers to answer unequivocally.
 
 
# alba 2012-07-01 02:44
I've nicked this comment from another forum;

Quote:
Although I am no fan of the Scottish National Party, I will still be voting Yes in the referendum and take some comfort in the knowledge that an independent Scotland will have no nuclear weapons. This for me is "the deal breaker". My own hope is that our armed forces will never be called upon to fight illegal foreign wars and will instead take their place in the world as a source of providing humanitarian aid wherever needed.


That would do for me.
 
 
# the wallace 2012-07-01 11:27
Where was the SDA when the yes campaign kicked off? Apart from the germans during the last war and a failed terrorist attack, the only other country to ever attack us was england would they ever do it again in the future who knows? if we as a nation do not act aggressively towards other nations then in turn we should not be attacked also,eg switzerland and others but that doesent mean that if scotland were attacked we wouldnt have the capability to vigourasly and robustly defend ourselves against anyone.
 
 
# scotknowhow 2012-07-01 12:01
Responding to the various comments, I will say that I am not one for casting stones then running. In fact I appreciate the fact that people took from their time own precius time to write. But it is difficult to put on the "big brain" when there is a helmet over it. That being stated, and doing this on my one day off over the 100 hour work week..

UpSpake - my intent was to state that while Angus (SNP Defence Spokes) is very knowledgable of Scotland's current and past experience with the UK defence structure (much more so then I), I have seen no evidence to suggest that he or his council has a complete grasp of the future in terms of defence/security.

OldNat - your point -
Our energy installations serve more than Scotland. Western Europe needs them as well, so we need to be aware of that...Is excellent and yet another topic worthy of detailed research.

Tartanfever - many thanks and your point is well noted...my only response is that, writing off the top of my head, it is tough indeed to assemble a documented work under deployed conditions. Hence, an opinion piece written in the desert:) What I find interesting is I write this in 6 hours and the SNP has had years to crush these assertions.

Bringiton - I shall:) I take the position that The SNP will be in power sometime after a successful referendum (should that be the case) I see no other party in Scotland at this time advancing the referendum cause. Also, and in a friendly manner, I would argue that the average American puts no thought into Scotland or its politics - it is a lovely place to visit - nothing more to most Americans. "Doubt that the present day citizens of the USA would agree with his position" - I doubt the citizens of the USA know about Scotland's current political climate - let alone its history. I'll take you for some JD and coke in Alabama sometime and let us see what interesting debate is sculpted from that lot:) You also are unaware of the blowback stateside I received after the First Minister released the "Libya bomber", and while I side with many Scots on this issue it was not received well within the US civil service. And while I too am very familiar with the changing global environment - I see it everyday here in the feld - and elsewhere - professional advisors from where? NATO!

..and a logistics C-17 reference was made (from another contributor)- and the misperception that I suggested a purely Scottish capability. It may very well be the case that this quick submission slipped in that I was referring to Scotland's membership within the NATO structure would allow for assisting greater humanitarian need, refuelling etc.

Nevertheless, and I think the basic premise is clear...greater dedication to this issue is in order. I think it is important to stick to the point and eyes forward. I do not have all the answers, but an informed collective does, and some of these questtions will demand a response come 2014. When I am out of the "sandbox", we all can do lunch:)

Best Wishes...
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-01 13:21
This article would have benefitted from a (great deal) of editing; it is several times too long, and could have made it's point in a fraction of the length.

Whilst I share some of the concerns, like many other areas of policy that Unionists are apt to beat the SNP or other independistas with (EU membership, keeping the punt, adopting the Euro, the monarchy, a future constitution etc., etc.... any number of Unionist scare stories we are all aware of), there is little that can, or indeed should be done in terms of detailed policy making until AFTER a yes vote in 2014.

Even if the SNP or other body came up with detailed plans, there is no guarantee that can enact them post independence, because they can't say definitively that they will be in power, or will get their plan thru, or that things won't change in the interim.

Going forward, all the SNP and "yes" movement have to do is point out we can spend less than we currently contribute to UK defence, and still be better off security wise; it's a no brainer. Add in a guarantee to get rid of Trident and nuclear bases on the Clyde, and its a powerful argument to change the mind of some undecided voters.
 
 
# cirsium 2012-07-01 14:04
“If an independent Scotland is to be considered an oil producing nation, and national wealth is largely attributed to this endeavour, someone from beneath the Mason-Dixon line might ask what kind of stupid do you have to be to leave the barn door open? ”

It is an oil producing nation and is the barn door not already open? After all, a Russian fleet could anchor in the Moray Firth without an immediate response from the UK. It took 24 hours for a frigate to come north from Portsmouth. The UK has scrapped its Nimrod patrol planes. It is in the process of closing RAF airbases in Scotland.

It is interesting that this article is appearing at the same time as the following
Malcolm Chalmers (2012): Kingdom's End?, The RUSI Journal, 157:3, 6-11. (for the URLm see CarolM's comment on the A-Z thread).

I guess we have reached "then they fight you" stage.
 
 
# Louperdowg 2012-07-01 14:36
I find it extremely ironic that it is our military 'defence' forces' presence in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan which is causing us to be attacked by 'terrorists' leaving us to be defended by civilian police.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-01 15:08
Why do so many people seem to think that the SNP not having some grandiose fully fleshed out defence policy is such a problem? I just don't get it. Of course the SNP can have a view about what the defence policy and geo-political position of an independent Scotland *might* look like.... but the finished article is not within its gift.

As has been previously discussed on this site and others, if an independent Scotland devoted the 10% of the current UK defence budget which it now contributes, it would comfortably outspend many other comparable small European states. It is relatively easy to show that a future Scottish government (whether SNP led of not) could probably reduce defence expenditure, and still have a more coherent defence policy, and be more secure, than is currently the case.

Anyone who wants to can look at the size, force structure and cost of the Danish, Norwegian and Finnish defence forces (all countries of a similar size) and see that we could quite easily promote a more agile, harder hitting defence force which actually had the ability to defend our territorial waters, fisheries, airspace etc., and be available for supporting peacekeeping and humanitarian missions abroad if desired.

Like the future constitution, this is an important area, and one which can usefully be turned against the Unionists by showing that an independent Scotland can and will do better.... but it is folly to get tied up in knots about it, or to hand Unionists a stick to beat you with when their own defence policies are so laughably inadequate.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-07-01 16:17
Quote:
Anyone who wants to can look at the size, force structure and cost of the Danish, Norwegian and Finnish defence forces (all countries of a similar size)


I'd like to point out that 'similar size' refers to population size. Denmark is more populatious but tiny compared to Norway or Finland by area. Finland is a very large and sparsely populated coutry by European standards. Very good for 'wilderness' tourism. You can wander for a week without seeing another soul.

And what that means for national defence? Finland with larger land area/airspace but less population (taxpayers) than Denmark has it tougher to patrol/defend our integrity. Also, Denmark and Norway are in NATO so they don't have to worry about it. And apparently Finland, as a fellow Nordic country, will provide air cover for Iceland. Hmm...
 
 
# Dundonian West 2012-07-01 15:17
OT.Blair Jenkins,Yes Scotland,asks for donations transparency.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
"He told BBC Scotland it should be 'the people who are taking the decision in Scotland' who contribute to the rival campaigns."
As per BBC Scotland policy(?) there doesn't seem to be a comments facility.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-01 15:24
I think this is one the "yes" campaign should play for all it is worth; if they have fully transparent donations and the "Vote No" campaign doesn't, it will be a gift for Yes Scotland and the SNP.
 
 
# Skunnered 2012-07-01 15:20
errrr..Galen10, we are contemplating the course of our history. Why would we not consider the finest details of Scotland's protections?? Yes, this article is rather lengthy, but so are the details of the subject matter at hand.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-04 16:00
Quoting Skunnered:
errrr..Galen10, we are contemplating the course of our history. Why would we not consider the finest details of Scotland's protections?? Yes, this article is rather lengthy, but so are the details of the subject matter at hand.


Considering is great, but as I've said elsewhere, the danger is that the consideration becomes akin to arguing about how many angels can dance on a pin head.

There will likely be lots of different views about how best to provide for Scotland's defence, just as there will how to write the best constitution, or how to approach economic issues. The time to thrash them out ISN'T now, because in any of these examples, detailed plans risk being hopelessly out of date by the time we achieve independence, or will be overtaken by events.

Good grief, a week is a long time in politics.... how are we supposed to finalise plans years in advance, when we don't know who will be in power, or how people will feel about these issues post independence?
 
 
# Caadfael 2012-07-01 16:08
No real reason we shouldnt be able to build a few of these ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_class_o ffshore_patrol_ vessels
1 year build time, cost just under £m120, very handy!
 
 
# Edulis 2012-07-01 16:29
IMO there is a need to have a detailed shape to a future defence profile, which should strongly reflect other similar sized countries. I take the point that it is up to a future post independent government to put the detail on this but the issue is that we need to compare a future independent Scotland with a future Scotland within the UK. Otherwise we will not be at the races.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-01 16:46
Then I ask the same question of you, as of those on other threads calling for a constitution for the future independent Scotland to be "fettled" now; who is this "we" who will not be at the races, and who is supposed to derive the potential future policy options?

I take your point that you are not saying they have to be detailed, and maybe all you are advocating is "more discussion please" which is all well and good. However, there is a danger in getting bogged down with the detail, both because we don't (and can't) know what the settled will of the Scottish people will be in 2014 and after, but also because we may simply be handing Unionists a weapon.

Unless of course we "gang canny", and point out the absurdities of the current defence situation, and win the argument, highlighting that in point of fact things could be much, much better if we had control of our own defence policy, just as for economic policy, social policy and foreign affairs generally.
 
 
# lumilumi 2012-07-01 17:47
This is all becoming so bogged down with civility, politeness, reasonabless (on the YES Scottish side). None of the unilateral declarations of independence of the past ~100 years or the past ~30-20 years. Scotland is trying to do it democratically and civilly.

The undemocratic Westmister regime don't like it a bit, b***dy uppity jocks!

The Westminster regime is probably the best argument for independence, if only the word got out despite the MSM.
 
 
# Edulis 2012-07-01 23:55
# Galen 10
You are right. I am not advocating a detailed worked out policy. That is for a future Scottish government to develop during and after negotiations for Independence. I am merely saying that when we have the status quo up against Independence and we are dealing with defence then the public inclination will be to opt for the safety of the known. That can only be countered by a vision of something better which is realistic and achievable. We need to pull in defence experts to the Yes side to show that Scottish Defence policies would knock the British Empire posture of Westminster into a cocked hat.
 
 
# scotknowhow 2012-07-02 09:01
Edulis and Galen10
"I am not advocating a detailed worked out policy"? Apologies but this type of mindset only highlights the localized, amateurish and insular perspective indivudals such as yourselves operate under. Can the SNP (or any independet government) predict the short or long term future? The answer is obvious but certain necessary planning is in order (well, not for the likes of you). So what you both are saying, effectively, is that the RUK and NATO security alliance should simply trust people such as your selves, as you meander along, and consider your options. You act as if the west and the RUK owe you something, and it is not an attractive type of behaviour. So what you both are saying is that the RUK should await Scotland's decision and deal with it? SO what you both are saying to the thousands of Scottish service members serving in the UK military services is in fact, hold on fellas, well get back to you (while some of these fellows are sitting down range and in the heat of summer?? Your careless and self-important attitudes are amazing, repulsive and terrifying all in on instance. I would suggest you seek deeper consultation and negiotiations with others, rather than spending all your time within the confines of club "me". Unbeleievable really...
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-04 16:31
Your response is as ill-thought out as it is offensive.

The planning you talk of is the work of the negotiations which will take place AFTER independence is achieved. Discussing "possible" futures is all very well, but until independence is a fact on the ground, there is little point developing grandiose plans which may lead nowhere.

It is likely the Scottish people will want Trident subs and infrastructure removed... but it obviously won't happen overnight. It is however vanishingly unlikely the Unionist establishment will admit to planning for such an eventuality, even if they are actually doing it, as it would risk being seen as defeatist.

I don't think the RUK or NATO owe us anything. It has already been amply demonstrated (here and elsewhere) that Scotland could spend less on defence than we currently contribute, and be more than adequately defended... we can probably pocket a saving in fact.

If the Scottish people decide they want to be part of NATO, it is vanishingly unlikely NATO will say no... but it is up to the people to decide AFTER independence is achieved, it's not in the gift of any one party.

As for Scottish service personnel, they will have a choice of continuing to serve in the forces of RUK (as many commonwealth nationals still do), or trnnsferring to the Scottish defence forces... hardly rocket science is it? I'd imagine many might prefer not to be involved in imperialist adventures abroad, and/or feel that their career prospects might be better in the Scottish rather than RUK forces.

Any reasonable analyst can see that it is the RUK defence policy which is "kaput".

Why you think my views are "amzing, repulsive and terrifying" frankly says more about your woo hoo tin hatted views than it does speak to the actual issues, but then it is apparent from all the emoting that factual analysis isn't your strongpoint.
 
 
# Caadfael 2012-07-03 15:08
I cant help but wonder about an old school-mate, Trevor Royle makes of this.
He used to write in the Herald, but appears to have left .. anyone know?
 
 
# scotknowhow 2012-07-05 09:22
You are a politician, or one who aspires to be, and while this opinion piece does not coddle the reader (or yourself) in that an opinion piece does not provide immediate references, perhaps one might have his/her assistants locate the information for you. What concerns me is that even if the information was handed to you in a well-placed brief, one must have the ability to assemble these materials in a way that nurtures a sensible theory. By the way, the information that assisted in developing these opinions are all within the public domain - so that should not be too difficult a task for you or your staff. Finally, I would assert that taking a "wait and plan later" policy is anything "but speaking to the actual issues". In the present, you are content with obligating yourself to the minimum in terms of defence, and your non-existent policy reflects NOTHING when considering an independent Scotland's future securty presence or its obligations to the international community. As mentioned I am not British, and whilst I "woo-hoo tin hatted views", I do so for the security interests of YOUR own country and its neighbours. Until proven otherwise, I suspect you maintain your views for convenience and electoral assurances.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-08 16:53
Why do you assume I'm a politician? You have zero evidence, so of course you have simply assumed or made up this "fact" to suit your prejudices. Neither do I aspire to be a politician.

Thus, your assertion that a "wait and plan later" strategy is somehow wrong is simply flawed. Until the Scottish people chose independence, any plans, policies and detailed planning are simply pie in the sky, as they will have no legitimacy because they are not based on any body with a mandate from the Scottish people.

Scotland, once independent, is more than capable of organising it's own defence and formulating its own strategic vision, whether inside NATO or not. I happen to be an expat Scot living in England, so it is obviously of interest and concern to me what the future defence policy of an independent Scotland might be.... but in the end, only the people of scotland can decide it, not those abroad, and certainly not people like yourself who seem to think that somehow it is "right" or even POSSIBLE to figure out what the strategic, financial, and military realities will be post a "yes" vote in 2014.

It is simply wrong- headed. WE don't yet know whether the people of Scotland will support continued membership of NATO, insist on nuclear weapons and bases being removed immediately or accept phased withdrawal, will they want to reduce our defence expenditure from current levels, or increase it?

None of these issues are clear, nor can they be clarified until AFTER 2014... it's hardly rocket science. Any political party, interest group, research body or individual can have a view of course, and try to disseminate it.... but all of that has to be seen for what it is at present, mere "whataboutery" until the goal of independence is achieved.

I maintain my views because I believe them to be correct, and backed up by common sense, not for convenience or electoral assurances at all. Your views don't appear to me to add anything to the security interests of my country (whether the UK or Scotland), and the interests of Scotland's neighbours post independence, whilst relevant and important, do not give them any rights over what the Scottish people decide to do in defence or security terms.
 
 
# Skunnered 2012-07-04 07:40
Anyone read the Herald today? Independent Scotland vulnerable to 9/11 attack
So here are three people pretty much in line with the same views - and it seems Angus Robertson and the SNP lot need to reconsider if they want us to cross the line....
 
 
# oldnat 2012-07-06 01:49
Any sensible defence policy will be based on the likelihood of specific threats, as well as a capability to respond to unforeseen threats.

Of course, a measure of realism needs to be involved. We could spend billions on protecting the Scottish coastline against saboteurs planting radioactive particles on our beaches. Every child wandering there could be subjected to a radiation check.

Of course, the UK Government polluted our beaches with no restrictions!
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-07-08 18:21
Now why would scotland need to protect itself from a 9/11 attack?

I don't recall the IRA bombing Scotland. Islamic militants bomb those countries which bomb islamic countries. The lucky escape we had with the failed attack on Glasgow airport was a union dividend, along with all the young scots coming back in boxes after dying for London's pathetic attempts at pretending still to be an empire.

Scotland, due to its geography, is extremely difficult to invade and impossible to hold. It's like the Afghanistan of Europe. The Romans, the vikings and the English all tried to varying extents and all failed.

Scotland could remove an invader with a pile of kalashnikovs, RPGs and a few highland ponies.

You can invade Scotland, at least to the highland line if you are lucky, but you'll never sleep easy in your bed. Dirks in the night, ambushes on lonely roads.. scorched earth & poisoned water supplies. Eventually you'll get the message and leave.

The rules of war never change. We only have to look at Afghanistan - the British couldn't do it, neither could the russians, and now the USA and co still can't.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-08 19:52
@ scottish_skier

It is possible that Scotland *might* need to protect itself from any number of potential threats in the future; vanishingly few experts ever predicted the kind of thing that happened on 9/11, so its a brave person who would guarantee that nothing would ever happen in the future, so it would be safe to take the Costa Rican option and abolish armed forces altogether.

Of course it is hardly likely that anyone is going to mount a land invasion of an independent Scotland; the Cold War is over.... but are you so absolutely sure that there are no threats worth preparing for, or that we shouldn't have forces capable of contributing to UN peacekeeping missions for example, or in future missions like Libya, Kossovo, Bosnia, Liberia, Congo...?

An independent Scotland need to be able to protect it's airspace, fisheries and oil... simple enough as other similar size states have shown! Your scenario of Scotland being occupied is (intentionally...?) far fetched... but it is quite feasible for an external power to exert pressure by attempting to cut off trade and oil supplies if we have no means of stopping them, of attacking us from the air if we don't have sufficient air defences, or of mounting attacks like those we saw in 9/11. Atocha station in Madrid, 7/7 in London, the Bali bombing etc., if we don't invest in intelligence gathering etc., and do anything contrary to the belief system of random islamic fascists abroad.

We probably don't need to be too worried about the Red Army marching down Princes Street.... we do need to worry about people trying to blow up Glasgow Airport because they think we insulted their religion, or helped the infidels, or just because we looked at them funny.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-07-08 20:53
Sorry, I was rambling a bit.

The point is that of course Scotland could defend itself without the need for a massive armed forces budget. In fact, if you want an easy country to defend geographically, then Scotland is ideal. The same geography/climate (and tenacity of the locals) that made the Romans give up prevented the English from conquering Scotland too (as they managed in Wales, but only at huge expense).

As for terrorism, the UK, with a huge defense spend relative to GDP has failed to defend itself from terrorism. If the UK wanted to avoid IRA bombs, it should not have been involved in the partitioning of Ireland. If it wanted to avoid islamic militants, it should stop bombing islamic countries.

You can never completely avoid terrorism - Norway sadly experienced that recently. However, the size of their armed forces made no difference to this of course.
 

You must be logged-in in order to post a comment.

Banner
Banner

Donate to Newsnet Scotland

Latest Comments