By Lesley Riddoch
Devo Max-what is the big problem with asking Scots if that’s the solution they currently back? Well the question is apparently impossible to formulate.
Strange then that the polling organisation TNS-BMRB seems to have managed it fairly easily.
In October 2011 the pollsters first included the option to “Transfer more powers from Westminster to the Scottish Parliament, including tax and welfare but excluding defence and foreign affairs,” alongside “full independence for Scotland” and “Keep the current arrangement of a Scottish parliament with its existing powers.”
Those options gained the backing of 33%, 28% and 29% respectively.
In January 2012 those options were backed by 30%, 26% and 32%. And in July support for devo-max had risen to 37% with independence at 23% and the status quo at 29%. Only at this point did the big guns start to roll out against a second question even though, to my knowledge, no-one challenged TNS-BMRB about their inclusion of a “confusing” devo-max option.
The startling July poll findings question the notion that a malleable 20% of the electorate exist to be persuaded – it seems when a third option is allowed the number of don’t knows roughly halves. The poll also suggests there is a clear majority for further constitutional change (37% plus 23% = 60%) and for staying in the union (37% plus 29% = 66%).
A dispassionate observer might say Scots evidently want to stay in the Union with an enhanced deal. But that’s not how the Yes or No camps view things.
Mysteriously, an option with no official support, no organised campaign, no First Minister backing, no former Chancellor endorsement, no cash and no media profile has managed to gain supporters from both the Yes and No camps – and yet every single political party in Scotland has declared devo-max to be an irrelevance and has announced the poll results are (somehow) a victory for their side.
Good stuff guys. The option most Scots support ain’t going to be on the ballot paper. If I get the opportunity as part of the panel on tomorrow’s Any Questions (Radio 4 Friday 20.00 and Sat 13.10) I’ll tell Humza Yousaf, Anas Sarwar and Michael Moore it’s a democratic deficit of massive proportions.
And I’d say that whether I personally support independence or the status quo - because it’s true. And whether you think having cake and eating it is good for Scots or not - in the end, in a democracy, voters must be persuaded, not forced to choose options.
Nature abhors a vacuum – in physics and in politics. So why is popular devo-max a place all parties fear to tread?
Well quite obviously the Devo Max script is one the Lib Dems or Labour should pick up - not the SNP. The Liberals have backed Home Rule for Scotland since before the World War and since then have advocated federalism.
Now though, they prefer a rammy about the House of Lords to any mention of the coalition-boat-rocking F-word.
Equally, Labour leaders north and south of the border did indeed deliver devolution and their blood must boil every time devo-max is proposed as the next obvious step in John Smith’s “unfinished business.” It’s as if they want to say “we don’t need a lecture from the electorate – trust us for God’s sake. We’ve done it before.”
Well yes - that’s the problem. Labour did take a giant leap with devolution and much good has it done them. Out of government for a decade and watching as the unthinkable - an independence referendum - occurs before their very eyes.
If the Labour leadership believe devolution unleashed that independence genie from its bottle, there’s no way they’ll rush to remove the cork any further.
For Labour, crossing the Rubicon to let Scots raise and spend their own taxes looks bound to result in “full fat independence” later. Why on earth would Labour – or the Lib Dems – back another act of constitutional largesse only to get another political kicking, and break up the UK to boot?
And yet. For modern, federal, European social democrats that’s a massively defeatist stance. There’s no evidence that autonomy for nations within sovereign states speedily results in independence - except in binary, over-centralised Britain where long suppressed demand tends to explode when the possibility of “self government” finally arises.
In a fascinating Newsnet article Alex Robertson examines the situation in devolved Belgium;
“Flanders has its own government and parliament, located, pointedly, in Brussels, and has a lot more power than Edinburgh does. It can conduct a more or less separate foreign policy, make treaties, and manage its own economy.
It can raise some, not all, taxes and it only really relies on the Federal government for Defence and European affairs mostly. This independentista Scot is puzzled at why Flanders doesn’t push for outright independence. After all, it has a population of some 6 million and is self-sufficient economically. On the other hand, this same Scot wonders why Flanders would ever want to be independent. What would it gain?”
Surprisingly this very measured article was tweeted by the Yes campaign as a “Very interesting article on lessons Scotland could learn from Flanders in Belgium.” But surely the main lesson is that devo-max is a popular constitutional destination in its own right, not just a staging post on the motorway to independence?
So why do devolving Labour and the federal Lib Dems prefer the prospect of limping home on a “shoehorned ” Yes/No vote instead of romping home on a two question referendum?
Better Together will of course raise the practical question - Devo Plus or Devo Max?
Fundamentally the two models operate from the same powerful premise - that Scots should be responsible for raising in tax, what they spend, and leave monetary policy, defence and foreign affairs to Westminster. What differs is how each government gets its share of taxpayer cash.
With Devo Max the Scots Revenue would collect all taxes, undertake all state spending and send a cheque south once a year to pay for reserved/shared functions - the reverse of the current “here’s-yer-pocket-money” scenario with cash heading up from London.
With Devo Plus Scots would collect their “own” oil and gas revenues, income tax and corporation tax whilst Westminster would collect everyone’s VAT and National Insurance. This would make each government accountable for the money it spent instead of shipping Scotland’s current “tax spending without tax raising” dilemma south.
Devo plus is the mechanism of choice across most fiscally autonomous devolved governments in Europe - but it does appear a little messy and changeable.
If London raises VAT for example, the resulting squeeze on business could reduce Scottish income from Corporation Tax. Devo Max, on the other hand is used in two Spanish regions and has the advantage of looking simple - though the tough job of weeding out pension contributions has prompted advocates of Devo Plus to leave this part of welfare with London as well.
OK - it’s not as “simple” as “yes” or “no”. But then PR isn’t as “simple” as first past the post. Anyone want to go back there?
Perhaps there’s still time for civic society to step up, define, fund and back a devo-something option. Dream on. 2014 may seem a long way off, but time is already running out for the constitutional process. So the “inconvenient truth” of Scotland’s devomax preferring majority is set to go nowhere fast – unless imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery.
Maybe, by 2014, independence effectively will be Devo Max - as near as dammit anyway - since the SNP plans to "share" monetary, defence and foreign policy powers with the rUK by keeping the Queen, the pound, joining NATO and continuing to “feel British.”
Of course, choosing to cede powers is very different to not having them in the first place. So independence is still a far more radical option than devo anything.
And there’s the rub.
However this process is dressed up, badged or presented, a substantial and apparently growing number of Scots want to vote for an “inbetween” solution in 2014.
This can be a people’s choice or a party political choice - genuine democracy or an elegant stitch up - an expression of genuine diversity or the unsatisfactory outcome of a single binary choice.
One option or two options? That really is the only single question that matters.
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It really is beyond me why anybody would be happy to leave Foreign Affairs and Defence in the hands of politicians at Westminster - unless you're really happy with 1 Falklands War, 2 Gulf Wars, the War in Iraq and the War in Afghanistan, not to mention the retention of nuclear weapons in the West of Scotland.
Nice article Lesley, but Devo max looks very much like pipe dream for those that want it.
We’ve been here before. Some interesting numbers.
1997 Referendum
7 in 10 for Devo (Q1)
6 in 10 for Devo Max (Q2)
Polls at the time
4 in 10 for independence
2 in 10 liking the idea but unsure
Total = 6 in 10 = Q2 result
2012 ahead of 2014 referendum
7 in 10 for Devo max (Q1)
Polls May 11 to date
4 in 10 for independence
2 in 10 liking the idea but unsure
So, if people behave as they did in 1997, one might speculate that for Q2 – independence
4+2 = 6 in 10
Particularly if there is no devo max on the ballot.
Scotland will never remain in the union under a Westminster Tory Government. Only possible chance is Devo Max under Labour. Even then it would probably only last until the Tories returned again at some point. In terms of deep-seated socio-political beliefs in large sections of the electorate, the two countries are poles apart. It is as simple as that. Will not work.
I found this short clip from back in 2010. 'Why Didn't Scots Vote Tory'. Just a glimpse, but at the heart of the matter.
www.youtube.com/.../
Lastly, we need a written Constitution that enshrines the "Rights of the People" before the Referendum vote.
We have 2 years which is long enough to turn the supertanker round and win over our fellow Scots and win Independence!
In 80 years they have painted themselves into a corner (the independence corner) and cannot find a way out.
3) the widening disparity in social and political attitudes between the generality of the Scottish people, and the English people. The ties which bound us together in the days of Empire, and in the face of external threats, are now found to be considerably less important than the things which highlight the differences between us. Thus the devolutionary bairn whelped by a Labour midwife with the purpose of killing independence has grown up into a strapping teenager with a mind of its own, who finds the idea of moving out increasingly attractive.
Basil, not all of Spain is like the Basque country, which raises and spends its own taxes, returning what's needed for central services. The common system is a series of devolved regions.
Anyway it is currently being recentralised for economic but mainly ideological reasons, so is not a good model for Scotland or the UK.
Quoting Marga B:Basil, not all of Spain is like the Basque country, which raises and spends its own taxes, returning what's needed for central services. The common system is a series of devolved regions.
Anyway it is currently being recentralised for economic but mainly ideological reasons, so is not a good model for Scotland or the UK.
Marga, is it true that the Madrid government's stance vis a vis both the Basque country and Catalonia that they would not recognise any independence referendums called by their "devolved" governments?
It seems they are very much more centralist in that respect, whereas even arch Unionists in the UK/Scotland seem to accept that Scotland has the right to become independent if that is what the amjority of Scots vote for.
Maybe, by 2014, independence effectively will be Devo Max - as near as dammit anyway - since the SNP plans to "share" monetary, defence and foreign policy powers with the rUK by keeping the Queen, the pound, joining NATO and continuing to “feel British.”
The previous Scottish Constitutional Convention (SCC) was an association of Scottish political parties, churches and other civic groups, that developed a framework for a Scottish devolution. It is credited as having paved the way for the establishment of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.
I know of no reason, other than the SNP majority at Holyrood opposing the setting up of another one. Does that answer your question?