Banner

By Lesley Riddoch
 
Devo Max-what is the big problem with asking Scots if that’s the solution they currently back?  Well the question is apparently impossible to formulate. 
 
Strange then that the polling organisation TNS-BMRB seems to have managed it fairly easily.

In October 2011 the pollsters first included the option to “Transfer more powers from Westminster to the Scottish Parliament, including tax and welfare but excluding defence and foreign affairs,” alongside “full independence for Scotland” and “Keep the current arrangement of a Scottish parliament with its existing powers.”

Those options gained the backing of 33%, 28% and 29% respectively.

In January 2012 those options were backed by 30%, 26% and 32%.  And in July support for devo-max had risen to 37% with independence at 23% and the status quo at 29%.  Only at this point did the big guns start to roll out against a second question even though, to my knowledge, no-one challenged TNS-BMRB about their inclusion of a “confusing” devo-max option.

The startling July poll findings question the notion that a malleable 20% of the electorate exist to be persuaded – it seems when a third option is allowed the number of don’t knows roughly halves.  The poll also suggests there is a clear majority for further constitutional change (37% plus 23% = 60%) and for staying in the union (37% plus 29% = 66%). 

A dispassionate observer might say Scots evidently want to stay in the Union with an enhanced deal.  But that’s not how the Yes or No camps view things.

Mysteriously, an option with no official support, no organised campaign, no First Minister backing, no former Chancellor endorsement, no cash and no media profile has managed to gain supporters from both the Yes and No camps – and yet every single political party in Scotland has declared devo-max to be an irrelevance and has announced the poll results are (somehow) a victory for their side.

Good stuff guys.  The option most Scots support ain’t going to be on the ballot paper.  If I get the opportunity as part of the panel on tomorrow’s  Any Questions (Radio 4 Friday 20.00 and Sat 13.10) I’ll tell Humza Yousaf, Anas Sarwar and Michael Moore it’s a democratic deficit of massive proportions. 

And I’d say that whether I personally support independence or the status quo - because it’s true.  And whether you think having cake and eating it is good for Scots or not - in the end, in a democracy, voters must be persuaded, not forced to choose options.

Nature abhors a vacuum – in physics and in politics.  So why is popular devo-max a place all parties fear to tread?

Well quite obviously the Devo Max script is one the Lib Dems or Labour should pick up - not the SNP.  The Liberals have backed Home Rule for Scotland since before the World War and since then have advocated federalism.

Now though, they prefer a rammy about the House of Lords to any mention of the coalition-boat-rocking F-word. 

Equally, Labour leaders north and south of the border did indeed deliver devolution and their blood must boil every time devo-max is proposed as the next obvious step in John Smith’s “unfinished business.”  It’s as if they want to say “we don’t need a lecture from the electorate – trust us for God’s sake.  We’ve done it before.”

Well yes - that’s the problem.  Labour did take a giant leap with devolution and much good has it done them.  Out of government for a decade and watching as the unthinkable - an independence referendum - occurs before their very eyes.

If the Labour leadership believe devolution unleashed that independence genie from its bottle, there’s no way they’ll rush to remove the cork any further.

For Labour, crossing the Rubicon to let Scots raise and spend their own taxes looks bound to result in “full fat independence” later.  Why on earth would Labour – or the Lib Dems – back another act of constitutional largesse only to get another political kicking, and break up the UK to boot?

And yet.  For modern, federal, European social democrats that’s a massively defeatist stance.  There’s no evidence that autonomy for nations within sovereign states speedily results in independence - except in binary, over-centralised Britain where long suppressed demand tends to explode when the possibility of “self government” finally arises.

In a fascinating Newsnet article Alex Robertson examines the situation in devolved Belgium;

“Flanders has its own government and parliament, located, pointedly, in Brussels, and has a lot more power than Edinburgh does. It can conduct a more or less separate foreign policy, make treaties, and manage its own economy.

It can raise some, not all, taxes and it only really relies on the Federal government for Defence and European affairs mostly.  This independentista Scot is puzzled at why Flanders doesn’t push for outright independence.  After all, it has a population of some 6 million and is self-sufficient economically.  On the other hand, this same Scot wonders why Flanders would ever want to be independent.  What would it gain?”

Surprisingly this very measured article was tweeted by the Yes campaign as a “Very interesting article on lessons Scotland could learn from Flanders in Belgium.”  But surely the main lesson is that devo-max is a popular constitutional destination in its own right, not just a staging post on the motorway to independence?

So why do devolving Labour and the federal Lib Dems prefer the prospect of limping home on a “shoehorned ” Yes/No vote instead of romping home on a two question referendum?

Better Together will of course raise the practical question - Devo Plus or Devo Max?

Fundamentally the two models operate from the same powerful premise - that Scots should be responsible for raising in tax, what they spend, and leave monetary policy, defence and foreign affairs to Westminster.  What differs is how each government gets its share of taxpayer cash.

With Devo Max the Scots Revenue would collect all taxes, undertake all state spending and send a cheque south once a year to pay for reserved/shared functions - the reverse of the current “here’s-yer-pocket-money” scenario with cash heading up from London.

With Devo Plus Scots would collect their “own” oil and gas revenues, income tax and corporation tax whilst Westminster would collect everyone’s VAT and National Insurance.  This would make each government accountable for the money it spent instead of shipping Scotland’s current “tax spending without tax raising” dilemma south.

Devo plus is the mechanism of choice across most fiscally autonomous devolved governments in Europe - but it does appear a little messy and changeable.

If London raises VAT for example, the resulting squeeze on business could reduce Scottish income from Corporation Tax.  Devo Max, on the other hand is used in two Spanish regions and has the advantage of looking simple - though the tough job of weeding out pension contributions has prompted advocates of Devo Plus to leave this part of welfare with London as well.

OK - it’s not as “simple” as “yes” or “no”.  But then PR isn’t as “simple” as first past the post.  Anyone want to go back there?

Perhaps there’s still time for civic society to step up, define, fund and back a devo-something option.  Dream on.  2014 may seem a long way off, but time is already running out for the constitutional process.  So the “inconvenient truth” of Scotland’s devomax preferring majority is set to go nowhere fast – unless imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery.

Maybe, by 2014, independence effectively will be Devo Max - as near as dammit anyway - since the SNP plans to "share" monetary, defence and foreign policy powers with the rUK by keeping the Queen, the pound, joining NATO and continuing to “feel British.”

Of course, choosing to cede powers is very different to not having them in the first place.  So independence is still a far more radical option than devo anything.

And there’s the rub.

However this process is dressed up, badged or presented, a substantial and apparently growing number of Scots want to vote for an “inbetween” solution in 2014.

This can be a people’s choice or a party political choice - genuine democracy or an elegant stitch up - an expression of genuine diversity or the unsatisfactory outcome of a single binary choice.

One option or two options?  That really is the only single question that matters.

 

Newsnet Scotland hopes to attract more contributions from respected commentators from across the constitutional spectrum.  If you would like to see more of this kind of content then the following donate button will allow you to contribute into a special ring-fenced fund specifically set up for this purpose.

Comments  

 
# call me dave 2012-07-26 21:44
Ouch!

Was that the sound of heads being bashed 'together' . .

I only get one vote: Independence for me.
 
 
# handclapping 2012-07-26 22:00
Its the difference between citizen and subject.

Better Together sees us as subjects and if we vote NO we'll get what we're given; the Crown in Parliament is supreme and a referendum merely advisory.

The YES sees us as citizens and if someone will come up with a Devo-something then they can have it on the ballot as if chosen then we have mandated something for our Scottish Government to work towards; the will of Scotland's people is paramount and the referendum determinative.

However it is not reasonable to expect the SNP, who have been fighting for 80 years for Independence, to have to come up with an alternative. So, over to you.
 
 
# DonaldMhor 2012-07-26 22:14
There does appear to be a growing demand for d+, dMax, dMinus, dSodall, what ever. My own feeling is that it is Devious Max, and that it is being touted by those that cannot bring them selves to contemplate the independence of Scotland , but have realised that when the question is asked on it's own it will be a resounding YES!

I vote for the SNP simply because I want independence for Scotland. It is clear, it is unambiguous, it is definite, and any one who simpers, "but what does it mean" needs slapped. it is in the dictionaries, it is in Wiki, it is practised by all of our Scandinavian and Baltic neighbours. And 196 countries in the world.

The Devious question on the other hand is simply a licence for lawyers to print money in years and years of wrangling and obfuscation from a reluctant Westminster. The humiliation that will be heaped on Scotland if we fail to vote for full independence will be enormous. Westminster will revel in this situation.

If there is a massive body of opinion for the devious question then let them organise and fund a referendum for that.

The SNPs raison d'être from day one has been full independence for Scotland. If they then dilute that with this booraching about Devious Max, they are betraying their core vote and their founding fathers. I say to the SNP stop this nonsense and get on with one question, that is what you promised me and that is what I voted for, an that is what I want.

Do you agree Scotland should be an independent nation. YES/ NO.

End of.


Saor Alba.


PS Thanks to Lesley. I enjoyed your radio and TV programmes. I think you are one of the best in the game, what a pity the BBC seem to have blackballed you. They have done the same with Derek Bateman. I think you are sitting on the fence on this, or hedging your bets! Get over to the bright side, time to walk out of the shadows. It is to important for impartiality!
 
 
# Sleekit 2012-07-26 22:28
Donald,

The SNP only go on about Devo Max because it is favoured by the Scottish electorate and the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour wont touch it with a 50 foot barge pole.

Its a very useful tool for showing that they (Westminster) have no real intentions of giving Scotland more powers within the Union.

The SNP cannot offer Devo Max as it is an alteration of the UK financial structures and as such must be driven by Westminster (i.e. Tories, Liberals and Labour).

Westminster needs to legislate for exactly what Devo Max would mean in practice and ensure that it was ready to go by the Referendum.

The SNP cannot unilateraly dictate the terms of continuance of the UK, they can only disolve the union and start afresh with new systems and agreements.

It is for this reason that Devo Max will NOT appear on the ballot.

Westminster does not want to give up power, however if polls show an independence win get set for the return of Devo Max in 1979 style jam tommorrow proclamations.
 
 
# John Lyons 2012-07-27 10:22
"it is being touted by those that cannot bring them selves to contemplate the independence of Scotland , but have realised that when the question is asked on it's own it will be a resounding YES!"

Bang on.

As for Leslies growing support for devo something, I think that's wishful thinking. I don't know anyone in the middle. I know plenty of yes's and some don't knows who aren't interested and might start paying attention in about 18 months. I even know a couple of definately nots! But I don't know any devo somethings.

Maybe I only live in a wee bubble of Nationalists, but if that was the case I wouldn't know any staunch unionists. I just really doubt there are that many people out there whose starting position is compromise. Maybe Unionists are drifting towards that compromise, but like call me Dave at the top, I think Nationalists are sticking to thier guns.
 
 
# Desperate Dora 2012-07-26 22:17
It really is beyond me why anybody would be happy to leave Foreign Affairs and Defence in the hands of politicians at Westminster - unless you're really happy with 1 Falklands War, 2 Gulf Wars, the War in Iraq and the War in Afghanistan, not to mention the retention of nuclear weapons in the West of Scotland.

I would like to think that an independent Scotland could do better than the current arrangement in which we send young men and women abroad to fight, be maimed and die on behalf of large corporations.

Leaving Defence with Westminster will leave us carrying the burden of British imperialism ad infinitum. We really can't afford to continue to waste so much money on "Defence"(which really means Attack"). If we need to fight a war it should be the war on poverty and deprivation.

No, so long as Devo-max means that Defence is left with Westminster, I'll be voting for independence.
 
 
# Diabloandco 2012-07-27 08:32
You forgot Libya, but I am with you.
I have no desire to be associated with Westminster/Washington foreign policy.

This superior "god" that the West has impresses me not at all.
 
 
# tearortwo 2012-07-27 09:16
The logical answer must surely be independence first, then agree areas of joint expenditure, which in my view would neither include defence or foreign affairs.
 
 
# robbo 2012-07-27 13:04
Quoting Desperate Dora:
It really is beyond me why anybody would be happy to leave Foreign Affairs and Defence in the hands of politicians at Westminster - unless you're really happy with 1 Falklands War, 2 Gulf Wars, the War in Iraq and the War in Afghanistan, not to mention the retention of nuclear weapons in the West of Scotland.


What was wrong with the Falklands War? Not being a warmonger doesn't mean you have to be a coward.
 
 
# gopher3 2012-07-28 14:45
O/T On defence, EBC online pages report that maintenence of nuclear weapons on the Clyde has now been awarded to Private Contractors.
bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-07-26 22:27
Nice article Lesley, but Devo max looks very much like pipe dream for those that want it.

We’ve been here before. Some interesting numbers.

1997 Referendum
7 in 10 for Devo (Q1)
6 in 10 for Devo Max (Q2)

Polls at the time
4 in 10 for independence
2 in 10 liking the idea but unsure
Total = 6 in 10 = Q2 result

2012 ahead of 2014 referendum
7 in 10 for Devo max (Q1)

Polls May 11 to date
4 in 10 for independence
2 in 10 liking the idea but unsure

So, if people behave as they did in 1997, one might speculate that for Q2 – independence
4+2 = 6 in 10

Particularly if there is no devo max on the ballot.

Scotland will never remain in the union under a Westminster Tory Government. Only possible chance is Devo Max under Labour. Even then it would probably only last until the Tories returned again at some point. In terms of deep-seated socio-political beliefs in large sections of the electorate, the two countries are poles apart. It is as simple as that. Will not work.

I found this short clip from back in 2010. 'Why Didn't Scots Vote Tory'. Just a glimpse, but at the heart of the matter.

www.youtube.com/.../
 
 
# davemsc 2012-07-26 23:52
Slightly inaccurate. The second question in 1997 was not about Devo Max, but about whether or not the current parliament should have the power to vary income tax by plus-or-minus 3% (which it has, but has never used). This is very different from Devo Max.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-07-27 16:12
Sorry, but what I meant was that the second question was for the maximum devolution on offer at the time. I would imagine that everyone who wanted as much power for the parliament as possible voted Y-Y. That would of course be all the independence supporters.

I wanted independence then so of course voted Y-Y.
 
 
# nchanter 2012-07-27 10:35
Quoting scottish_skier:
Nice article Lesley, but Devo max looks very much like pipe dream for those that want it.

We’ve been here before. Some interesting numbers.

1997 Referendum
7 in 10 for Devo (Q1)
6 in 10 for Devo Max (Q2)

Polls at the time
4 in 10 for independence
2 in 10 liking the idea but unsure
Total = 6 in 10 = Q2 result

2012 ahead of 2014 referendum
7 in 10 for Devo max (Q1)

Polls May 11 to date
4 in 10 for independence
2 in 10 liking the idea but unsure

So, if people behave as they did in 1997, one might speculate that for Q2 – independence
4+2 = 6 in 10

Particularly if there is no devo max on the ballot.

Scotland will never remain in the union under a Westminster Tory Government. Only possible chance is Devo Max under Labour. Even then it would probably only last until the Tories returned again at some point. In terms of deep-seated socio-political beliefs in large sections of the electorate, the two countries are poles apart. It is as simple as that. Will not work.

I found this short clip from back in 2010. 'Why Didn't Scots Vote Tory'. Just a glimpse, but at the heart of the matter.

www.youtube.com/.../

S S. O/t. In the case of gaining indy, where would Scotland stand in regard to the Royal prerogative or would that still be in the power of the Prime Minister of England? Thanks.
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-07-27 16:35
I'm not an expert on royal perogative, but it would be the Scottish Government / PM in Scotland so long as it retained the queen as HoS.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-07-27 16:56
There is no Royal Perogative in Scotland it only holds in Westminster as part of the English Constitutional set up of the 'Crown in Parliament' which creates England as a parliamentary democracy.

Scotland is a representative democracy where the people are sovereign and we lend our sovereign rights to both parliament and the crown in the clear understanding we, the Sovereign people, can take them back again when we say.

That is the whole point of the 1689 Claim of Right - Liz is Queen of Scots because we, the Sovereign Scottish people, say so; unlike in England where Liz is considered 'God's Annointed' Queen.

This is also true for Westminster Government - it only can have the amount of sovereignty over Scotland we 'allow' it to have by assertion or default. The growing problem for Westminster is the increased assertion of their sovereignty by the Scottish people.

We have now come to the point which Micheal Forsyth was concerned about in his opposition to devolution in 1997. In real terms the Scottish Government does not need a referendum on independence to become independent. If Holyrood passed a bill to secede from the Treaty of Union by a majority of one, then the Treaty of Union is ended.

To do so would create a very messy divorce rather than the consentual break up which is the SNP's preferred option.

It is a bit of an arcane answer to your question but the bottom line is there is no Royal perogative in Scottish Constitutional practice or Scots Law - power lies with the people.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 17:15
So presumably we won't have to be bothering with a Governor General as the Queen's representative in a silly feathered hat after independence then?

Good, good.....
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-07-27 17:42
Nope - because under Scottish Constitutional practice Liz would still be Queen of Scots unless we gave her the old 'heave ho' and opted for the Princess Royal as Queen of Scots or Billy Connolly as King of Scots.

The latter would have our friends in the Orange Order in total confusion. They would like the idea of a 'King Billy' but be revolted that the selection means the King of Scots is a lapsed Catholic. :-D
 
 
# scottish_skier 2012-07-27 19:19
Thanks for clearing that up. Sounds right to me.
 
 
# Wee-Scamp 2012-07-26 22:33
The main obstacle to my ever even considering supporting Devo anything as an alternative to full fat Independence is that it would leave Scotland tied to the dreaded Treasury, the City of London and the now completely discredited banking and financial services sector.
 
 
# CharlieObrien 2012-07-26 22:36
We don't have all the powers that the council of Europe recommended,the way the devolution referendum was worded was another 1979 con,it let us vote on accepting some powers,but they never told us that the UN and the Council of Europe said that amount of powers was the least they could offer,they just talked it a bit different.
 
 
# Mad Jock McMad 2012-07-26 22:44
Lesley - at last a media punter that is pointing out that Devomax is the problem of Labour and the Libdems to define and not the SNP.

At no point has the SNP said no to a devomax option in the referendum so can we kill that canard stone dead. At the October 2011 SNP Conference what was clearly stated was the SNP was not against a devomax option but would only be campaigning for a 'Yes' to independence option.

It is the Unionists at Westminster who have declared it must be a 'yes/no question' and depending on the results there may be jam tomorrow if we say 'no'. Humza is not your problem - he is simply saying what it says on the SNP tin.

You really need to launch your missiles at who ever Labour, the Libdems and or Tories put up. It is after all their decision to deny the Scots the option that routinely 60% of Scots say they would prefer as it will take a White Paper and a Devomax Bill before Westminster to make it happen.

The bottom line your argument avoids is the reality that devomax means the end of Westminster hegemony, it returns to being England's parliament (along with its bloated House of Lords) and would be replaced by some form of UK Senate or Council of the Isles.

Lesley if you can get the Westminster turkeys to vote for Christmas then more power to your elbow, yet I sense it would be less frustrating and painful banging your head against a brick wall for the next couple of years.

I have supported a federal solution to the UK Union's growing fissures for nearly 40 years. The reality is it will never happen as long as Westminster is dependent on Scottish exports for 40% of its positive foreign exchange balance. Scotland in full control of its own fiscal matters means a big hole in the Westminster cash flow. Even Adam Smith's 'deluded nation of shop keepers' understand that cash flow is more important than overall tax revenues and this is why Westminster is forcing a straight yes / no question. It is total desperation on their part.
 
 
# A Ship Called Dignity 2012-07-26 23:01
The reason Devo Max (Full Fiscal Autonomy) is not in the mix is simple. What does Westminster get out of it or the rest of the UK for that matter?

The answer is next to NOTHING! Devo Max in the true sense is about Edinburgh collecting all revenues including Oil, Renewables, the list goes on and pays an agreed sum to Westminster for the small list of reserved matters i.e. Defence, Foreign and Consular affairs etc.

Now we begin to see why this would be a non starter as far as Westminster is concerned and why they are fighting tooth and nail to keep us in a limited devolved straight jacket.
 
 
# tartanfever 2012-07-26 23:47
Just to add another angle to the debate - with independence we will have to have our own treasury - meaning work for more civil servants who live in Scotland and spend their salaries here and pay their tax here - not the over inflated salaries of the bulging treasury departments in London. Remember, the current government promised to start moving civil servants out of London to other regions to save on the expense of London salaries and what happened ? - One person was moved, from Peterborough into London !
We could also sort out many of the corruptions of HMRC - who remembers just a couple of months ago the reports on over 2,000 HMRC staff earning over £58k a year who were avoiding tax by setting themselves up as companies and only paying 20% Corporation tax ? - This scenario would/could continue under devo-max or plus, especially if vat is left to London to collect.

The devo max solution is not for me because ultimately it leaves in place what I consider to be the core 'corruptions' of our current system.
 
 
# robbo 2012-07-29 03:09
London has a relatively low level of public sector workers.

guardian.co.uk/.../...

Scotland could well suffer a net loss of public sector workers upon independence. IMO this is a good thing though as public sector jobs simply stifle private sector jobs. Areas can grow dependent on public sector jobs which is bad news in the long run.

As for your bit about HMRC. Well this is how a lot of professionals pay themselves - I am one of them. There is nothing illegal or corrupt about it. In fact, the public sector is the one place it genuinely doesn't matter because their income tax is simply being paid by the taxpayer anyway.

It is actually very common in the oil industry and there would be dangers to getting rid of this without altering the tax structure to be less progressive. Essentially you would tax highly skilled workers out of the country, who would probably go to England instead. Ideally tax would be less progressive and dividend tax (not corporate which is paid on company profits) would be harmonised with income tax + NI.
 
 
# Dougthedug 2012-07-27 00:39
Lesley, a simple primer on Devo-max or Devo-anything when it comes to that.

The SNP are a party founded on the principle of Scottish independence and they are not in the business of producing a scheme which retains Scotland in the Union.

The SNP could define and put Devo-max as an option on the ballot paper but they'd be lying to the electorate if they said devolution would happen if chosen because the only parties who can grant Scotland devolved powers are parties who command a majority in Westminster.

Devo-max as a continuation of the Union is against the core principle of the SNP and as they have no practical way of unilaterally gaining any additional devolved powers for Scotland it's nothing to do with Humza Yousaf.

The Lib-Dems claim to be federalists but look for any policy paper on the Lib-dem website about a written constitution for the UK which is a prerequisite for federal parliaments as their powers have to be constitutionall y protected or a policy paper on an English Parliament or even a policy which mentions federalism as a future for the UK at all. The Lib-Dems are as federalist as the Tories. They've been trying to ditch federalism since 1988.

Canada has the Queen as head of State, Norway is in NATO and a currency union does not make a political union. Independence is not the same as Devo-max.

Labour and the Lib-Dems don't want a two question referendum for a very simple reason. They don't want any more power to go to Scotland and they're banking on the hail mary pass of a single question referendum to stop independence which is the threat which lead to devolution in the first place.
 
 
# pmcrek 2012-07-27 00:52
Support independence but Devo Max is miles better than the status quo. Further, in reference to the accusation, "You only support devo max as a safety net if independence doesnt win!"

To answer that slur I'll respond, well duh! To reiterate, if we cant win Independence then obviously Devo Max is miles better than the status quo.
 
 
# ButeHouse 2012-07-27 01:09
Just a reminder that the second Anti BBC Bias Demo takes place this Saturday between 11am and 4pm....bring flags if you have them...... anything but union jack or South Korean :0D

Oh, it's at Pacific Quay again.

VOTE YES in 2014
 
 
# Adrian B 2012-07-27 03:38
The Unionists do not want to get into discussing further Devo powers - it would be their own trap - as it will lead quickly to Independence. They could not work the system in an Independent Scotland - it wouldn't work in their favour and they well know it. Shame that the Scottish people do not figure in their plans. Self interest from politicians has cost Scotland dear in the last thirty or so years. Its time to change the political system so it works for the people of this nation.

For the Unionists the closer things stay to the Status Quo, the better for them.

The Lib Dems who supported Home Rule now feel 'Stronger together' standing shoulder to shoulder with the two London Tory parties. The Scottish voters however think differently about the Lib Dems these days. Yellow and Blue Tories alike now confined to fringe parties.

Vote YES 2014
 
 
# RJBH 2012-07-27 05:22
for what its worth.... keep it short and simple. Yes. or No

Devo Anything clouds the waters.... we need to have faith that there will be enough Yes voters out there come Autumn 2014.
 
 
# daftgowk 2012-07-27 06:36
It is pretty obvious to me why the Tories, Labour or Lib Dems don't want a Devo-plus/Devo-max question. If that was the favoured result in the referendum ( appears highly likely) then it would put considerable pressure on them to accede to the wishes of the people of Scotland. At present all the unionist parties are offering is in the event of a "No" vote to "consider" more devolved powers but like the Tories and their promise to the Lib Dems to "consider" reform of the House of Lords this is likely to mean very little in practice but they can say with hand on heart they met their promise to "consider". If the unionist parties genuinely want to grant more devolved powers then why didn't they do so in the recently passed Scotland Act ? They couldn't even agree to devolve Air Passage Tax as recommended under Calman, ostensively because they were concerned about the adverse effect on Newcastle Airport !
 
 
# Koenig 2012-07-27 07:34
The unionists will adopt devo-max when it becomes apparent Scotland will vote for independence as a last resort.

It will enable them to still retain control politically and finacially and give them the option to reverse devolution later under a Labour administartaion . Just as they were attempting to do with the Scotland Bill. Next time they do it there wont be an SNP government to block it.
 
 
# twinpowr 2012-07-27 08:13
Devo this or that is not an option as we do not and the Westminster will not say exactly what they would entail. Sure we have an idea of what it might entail, but we do not really know. Devo ??? does not give Scotland the Independence it needs. sure we will share a couple of things, but with independence we have the choice to get rid of these things at our choice, not theirs. it must be full independence with a view to setting up our own currentcy at some later date. The Euro at this time is not stable enough to even consider jointing it.
 
 
# UpSpake 2012-07-27 08:21
I fully expected the SNP to move the goalposts as soon as they achieved an overall majority in Parliament and the focus was well and truly on them. This is what they have done. They are now for Devo something.
I don't want an independent Scotland dependent upon London for our currency, our money supply, our interest rates and our financial well being. That is not independence by any stretch of the imagination.
I want Scotland totally free from perfidoius Albion and if there is to be any association with them on embassies etc then it will be on our terms, not theirs.
I simply cannot believe that the SNP would be so naive as to abrogate our most fundamental power, that of fiscal independence to another less than friendly legisalture currently asset stripping us faster than the eye can see.
Sorry SNP I don't like your tied Independence one little bit.
Independence is Freedom and that is not negotiable.
 
 
# Jim Johnston 2012-07-27 08:34
A very good article from Lesley, and even better comments posted above. Many thanks to all.

Anything with "devo" on the label is like the Scotland v England game played with an orange football. Of the Old Firm players in the Scotland side, one half wouldn't touch it and the other half wouldn't kick it.

It simply boils down to Independence or Dependence.

The people of Scotland will derermine Scotlands future. I trust that over the next two years, all Scots will understand their is no logical option other than Independence.
 
 
# Fortitudine 2012-07-27 08:36
I've a suggestion for a 2nd question, how about in this 'union of equals' *chokes* that we say it's our turn and powers shall transfer to Scotland and the Scottish Parliament will run the show for the next 300 years, sending some pocket money south. Fairs fair eh? They'll be begging us to go Indy rather than that :)
 
 
# Macart 2012-07-27 08:59
Y'see its no that hard a concept. The SNPs current leadership are gradualists and consensus driven. This means they actually listen to folks on the street and try to meet them half way. This does not mean they are not determined to see their cherished end goal achieved, but I'm willing to bet their approach will bring a lot more votes to the table come the day. Oh wait now.........they've done that already. Hence the May 2011 landslide.

What they are proposing to the electorate is known these days as Indy lite. Its extremely appealing to the current devo max voter you know (anyone see where this is going?). But who says that's the end of the journey? Who says a few years down the line, when negotiations are settled and an oil/resource fund is in place and stocking up the readies nicely, that there won't be a Scottish currency for instance? The Scottish Government is duty and honour bound to recognise the devo whatever voter, but being smarter than the average bear, are quite familiar with the fact they cannot deliver on devo max therefore.................. offer the electorate something they can feel familiar and safe with.

Its no rocket science.
 
 
# sneckedagain 2012-07-27 09:31
Can we kill the canard that Devo Max or FFA will carry us nearer to
independence.
What it actually does is add a couple of decades at least onto the process.
Better a narrow "No" in a Yes/No question and then on to the next referendum though I feel everything is now moving steadily the YES way and there is nothing going to stop this growing as the NObodies are firing duds already.
And like most SNP supporters foreign affairs and defence are the two areas I consider most imortant to be in Scottish hands
 
 
# hiorta 2012-07-27 09:33
Before we ask that the Unionists define what they call DevoMax, shouldn't they explain what they understand would be the outcome on a 'NO' vote?

This is the one they are so pointedly silent on - 'vote no and we might give you a sweetie'.
 
 
# maxstafford 2012-07-27 10:47
Devi Max is like having an open relationship where your partner locks you in the room at night then slopes off to their favourite seedy club. We will still be a target every time London goes goose stepping off to pick a fight with somebody. Only independence will cleanse Scotland of London's malign 18th century mindset and practices.
 
 
# alang 2012-07-27 11:07
I have a lot of time for Lesley who is always ready to speak her mind on any matter and she adds valuable debate.

As a member of the SNP (and English born) I look around me in Scotland and the SNP (+ the Greens) are the only party that talks common sense and are genuinely committed to improving the lot of Scots (all of us).

The Unionists parties are out of touch and the only one of them that had a chance to change anything is Labour and look at their legacy over the last 50 years (Scotland the sick man of Europe). Health and wellbeing is a measure of a people and Labour make my blood boil. It's jobs for the boys, scandal after scandal and a few scraps for the working people.

The Unionists had Calman - it was their way of heading off the SNP majority victory that they told us would and could never happen (they rigged the voting system to avoid just that). Calman IS their answer to more power for the Scots! They don't want to give anymore, so wake up people they will never agree to Devo anything, just promise jam tomorrow.

Hopefully the electorate will see through them and vote for Independence which is the best option for Scotland and it's people.

Labour cant win in Westminster without Scotland. So they are facing political oblivion in England and fighting for their survival, so they will promise anything to keep Scotland in the Union!

The Tories want Scotland's resources period! Read the Crone Report and make you own mind up. They are still the same Tories, although the faces have changed.

Also remember the Tories & Labour mortgaged off the Scots future under PFI to their fat cat friends, which thank goodness the SNP is slowly reversing.

They both wanted "Light touch" regulation of the City of London, they Tories and Labour are responsible for the letting the Banks run riot and they then both bailed out the private banks, which is the biggest transfer of wealth from the working people to the Private Banks!

UpSpake is quite correct, the only way we will get true Independence is by taking control of everything ourselves. However the SNP leadership may have to duck and dive a bit to get us their. The Independence Referendum is like a super tanker - it take a very long time to slow down and then turn around, so I trust in canny AS and his team who have proved they are a match for the Unionist lot all put together!

Lastly, we need a written Constitution that enshrines the "Rights of the People" before the Referendum vote.

We have 2 years which is long enough to turn the supertanker round and win over our fellow Scots and win Independence!
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 11:40
Quoting alang:


Lastly, we need a written Constitution that enshrines the "Rights of the People" before the Referendum vote.

We have 2 years which is long enough to turn the supertanker round and win over our fellow Scots and win Independence!


NO! How many times do we have stake this ridiculous idea through the heart? Let's concentrate all our efforts on securing a YES vote in 2014, not get sidetracked arguind about the details of a constitution, or what an independent Scotland will look like once we have reached the bright and sunny uplands eh?

It is no more essential for those in favour of full independence to have every "i" dotted and "t" crossed with respect to a future constitution (or NATO membership, or EU membership, or what currency we use, or what head of state we have), than it is essential (or possible?) for proponents of the status-quo or devo-max to give us chapter and verse on what their chosen option would entail.

Spending time and effort on ANY of those would simply represent nugatory effort; they are all pointless exercises in "whatiffery" until the vote is over.

There have already been a number of discussions in NNS threads where this truly terrible idea has been comprehensively rubbished. There is no party or civic body with the legitimacy to come up with a detailed constitution over the next 2 years, and it is certainly not in the remit of the current Holyrood parliament, nor should it be!!

It is for the Scottish people to decide what constitution they want AFTER a YES vote is attained, either via a specially convened Convention elected for the purpose, or indirectly via a "new" parliament which draws up a constitution after receiving an electoral mandate to do so having outlined what it will include.

None of this is rocket science, and those pedalling the line that we have to get into this detail over the next 2 years are either Unionist "useful fools" (however well intentioned), or straight up opponents of independence or devo-max attempting to derail the process and retain the status quo.
 
 
# Jamieson 2012-07-27 14:50
I fully agree with you. Arguing over a written constitution before the Referendum would be a death trap for Independence. A complete waste of time and effort.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-07-27 11:27
OT Sorry but have people seen this extraordinary statement from our old friend the BBC (quoted in Guardian).

None of Radio 4's news programmes will be available to listen to internationally , apart from some non-Games related elements of Today, because the corporation's media rights agreement with the IOC bars it from broadcasting anything online outside the UK from the Olympic Park or other Olympic venues.

"We love all our listeners, but the Olympics makes up a large proportion of our news programmes at the moment and we simply don't have the staff to edit the programmes and put them up online," said one BBC insider. "We don't have the rights to broadcast anything from within the Olympic Park or the archive.

"On the one hand, it is a great shame. On the other, people listening from abroad don't pay the licence fee."

A BBC spokesman said: "The BBC is not host broadcaster for the London 2012 Olympic Games. The host broadcaster is OBS, who have been appointed by Locog and the IOC.

"OBS provide a feed for all rights-holding broadcasters across the globe, including the BBC. The BBC holds broadcast rights for the UK only and cannot therefore provide international streams of programmes containing output from Olympic venues."
 
 
# TamD 2012-07-27 11:37
I see an opportunity here. Whilst the unionists refuse to countenance the second question, why not frame it for them. I think that is a tremendously powerful position to be in.

I think here is we have to acknowledge the Scottish peoples thinking on this issue (an expression of their sovereignty). If we continue to trust them, I am sure they will reward us in the future with continuing their journey to full independence.

It might not happen overnight, but it certainly happen quicker than otherwise.
 
 
# exel 2012-07-27 11:57
@handclapping: “However it is not reasonable to expect the SNP, who have been fighting for 80 years for Independence, to have to come up with an alternative. So, over to you.”

Why not? They are a political party are they not, they want power. The only way they will get it is to convince a settled majority of Scots to vote YES.
In 80 years they have painted themselves into a corner (the independence corner) and cannot find a way out.
 
 
# Dougthedug 2012-07-27 13:11
Quote:
In 80 years they have painted themselves into a corner (the independence corner) and cannot find a way out.


In the referendum campaign the SNP will be campaigning for a Yes to independence choice. It's not their business to either define or campaign for a devo-max option which if it existed would be the main plank in the No campaign against independence.

If the unionists approved of devo-max they could have held a devo max referendum years ago with several options of more power for Scotland. They fact that they didn't means that the lack of a devo-max option on the ballot paper in the independence referendum is no surprise.

Remember. The SNP have promised a referendum on Scottish independence not on devo-max or home rule or any other unionist option. They have been incredibly magnanimous to consider tacking on a devo-max question which the unionists have singularly failed to ask for at least the last decade.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 13:13
It isn't resonable to expect the SNP to define the alternative to independence, because that isn't their raison d'etre... even a monomaniac like you ought to be able to see that exel!

As Lesley and many others have pointed out, it is up to the parties who purportedly support greater devolution to come up with the alternative, and to explain how it will be delivered in the teeth of apathy and/or outright hostility at Westminster.

I fail to see why you think the SNP have painted themselves into a corner; they are doing exactly what they said they would do, and have challenged the Unionist parties to come up with an alternative. Seems to me they have played it fairly canny, in as amuch as the deeply repugnant mainstream media and their shills at Westminster and Holyrood would have gone mental if the SNP had announced they would hold a 3 question referendum.

As others on here and in other forums, including the estimable Scottish Skier have pointed out, even if the vote in 2014 is NO, the Unionist parties will soon find themselves being asked the "where's the beef" question in relation to their cynical promise of jam tomorrow.

It is as they well know a promise they cannot fulfill, and that large numbers would work hard to prevent, particularly the Tories in the English shires. A No vote in 2014 may be "independence delayed", but the inability of the Unionists to make good on devolutionary/federalist dreams, particularly if the Tories or ConDems win the GE in 2015, will simply see the Scottish people give Holyrood a mandate for a further referendum in short order.

Your sad attachment to the busted flush of federalism, and your insistance on having a constitution and other future details worked out before 2014 demonstrate your inability to see for the ideological blinkers you wear.
 
 
# Juteman 2012-07-27 12:33
@excel
I hope, and think, the SNP are different from other partys. Power in itself isn't their aim. Independence is.
Therefore they aren't looking for a way out of any corner.
 
 
# Desperate Dora 2012-07-27 12:36
Devo Max still hems us into the old UK way of doing things, which is sometimes very old-fashioned and inefficient. I think it's better to make a clean break and start afresh.

Take embassies, for example - we may not need them at all. I understand this is the case in Scandinavia - they just send representatives when required. Or we could share an an embassy with just about any other country - it doesn't have to be rUK.

The Devo Max case seems to me to be too much based on what we can keep the same. But thinking in terms of Independence allows you to think outside the box and look around you to see how other countries do things and to see how we can do things better - without the limitations Devo Max would impose.

Because we're largely monoglot English speakers and live on an island, we tend to think that other countries do things the same way we do, or that the UK way of doing things is the best, or that an independent Scotland would just replicate what exists at Westminster.

There are many examples worldwide of how to do things better - and it's time we opened our eyes to this and considered the multitude of possibilities open to us.

But we really need the independence of mind that the independence of our country will bring so that we can create a better future.
 
 
# exel 2012-07-27 12:42
Lesley wrote: “A dispassionate observer might say Scots evidently want to stay in the Union with an enhanced deal. But that’s not how the Yes or No camps view things.”

That is exactly the point Lesley and none of the political parties are defining that “Enhanced Deal”. So the question must be asked WHAT WILL WE GET INSTEAD?

The SNP says we will get the freedom to decide how we wish to be governed (self determination). They did consult so maybe the “Independently analyzed result” will give us a clue.

Westminster says that they will improve the devolution (a quasi federal system) settlement. To what: a fully Federal system for the UK?
 
 
# Basil Metabolism 2012-07-27 13:06
I consider Scotland has a range of potential options and I tried to get my head round what levels of autonomy can exist between and within nations; I feel I can identify nine arrangements with gradually increasing autonomy (I’ve put in existing /historical examples where I can);
1.Unitary nations without centralised government without any regional autonomy e.g. Poland
2. Unitary nations with constituent countries with some regional autonomy with local assemblies. e.g. the UK as it currently stands in 2012.
3. Unitary state with communities raising taxes to pay for central services, regional parliaments and presidents e.g. Spain
4. Unitary nations with constituent countries with home rule including the ability to opt out of the EU e.g. Denmark.
5. Federal countries with state parliaments and local taxes with constitutional protection e.g. Germany. Note that some constituent states may have UN seats while the Federal union sits on the security council e.g. the USSR.
6.Personal unions that share a monarch, diplomatic service, army and central bank (e.g. the Dual Monarchy of Austria-Hungary).
7. Federal countries with constituent countries that can issue own currencies (the former Serbia and Montenegro)
8. Sovereign nations that cooperate on many bodies to maximise mutual benefits and further common interests. Share diplomatic services, currency, military alliances (Benelux, in which all are in the Eurozone, EU, NATO, Schengen etc.)
9. Sovereign nations that cooperate on some bodies to maximise mutual benefits and further common interests. (Nordic Union, in which some but not all are in the Eurozone, EU, NATO, Schengen etc.)

I think Devo-Max /devo-Plus supporters are proposing moving to somewhere in positions 3-7. I would be happy to explore moves from position 2 to position 8 or 9 as well.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 14:06
I think the issue is that, for all the many different historical precedents, the UK as a project is fairly unique in as much as it has lasted so long, and seems amenable to a change in status without recourse to violence and/or an external crisis bringing about the dissolution.

There are a number of current problems for devotees of a federal or "enhanced devolution" solution like exel:

1)timing: their desired outcome appears to have been overtaken by events. If the proponents of a federal system had got their fingers out over the past "X" years, then they would have had a realistic chance of "winning" a 3 question referendum, which as Lesley notes is the apparent majority choice of the Scottish people.

2)the unsuitability of the UK polity for federal solutions: the relative size of the constituent units, the differences between (especially) the Scottish and English "systems" based on their distinct histories, growing hostility to the devolutionist approach within England and the difficulty there would be forcing any increase in it through westminster, and the quasi-medieval system of governance of the UK as a state.

3) the widening disparity in social and political attitudes between the generality of the Scottish people, and the English people. The ties which bound us together in the days of Empire, and in the face of external threats, are now found to be considerably less important than the things which highlight the differences between us. Thus the devolutionary bairn whelped by a Labour midwife with the purpose of killing independence has grown up into a strapping teenager with a mind of its own, who finds the idea of moving out increasingly attractive.

The biggest problem for Unionists in Scotland is that they are in a lose-lose situation; if the people vote YES in 2014 many of them will have a lot of humble pie to eat, and some difficult decisions as they are required to lift their snouts from the Westminster / Unionist trough. However, even if the people vote NO, they will then be required to deliver on their promise of more devolution, or risk handing the SNP a stick to beat them with the the GE in 2015 and the Holyrood elections in 2016.

One could almost feel sorry for them... but not quite.
 
 
# red kite 2012-07-27 15:33
Quoting Galen10:
3) the widening disparity in social and political attitudes between the generality of the Scottish people, and the English people. The ties which bound us together in the days of Empire, and in the face of external threats, are now found to be considerably less important than the things which highlight the differences between us. Thus the devolutionary bairn whelped by a Labour midwife with the purpose of killing independence has grown up into a strapping teenager with a mind of its own, who finds the idea of moving out increasingly attractive.


Possibly the best explanation for the quest for independence I've seen.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 16:00
Thanks red kite; appreciate the "big up" ;)

Perhaps there's an article in there somewhere: "Home thoughts from the expat in deepet, darkest, Sussex" maybe?
 
 
# Marga B 2012-07-27 16:14
Basil, not all of Spain is like the Basque country, which raises and spends its own taxes, returning what's needed for central services. The common system is a series of devolved regions.

Anyway it is currently being recentralised for economic but mainly ideological reasons, so is not a good model for Scotland or the UK.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 16:28
Quoting Marga B:
Basil, not all of Spain is like the Basque country, which raises and spends its own taxes, returning what's needed for central services. The common system is a series of devolved regions.

Anyway it is currently being recentralised for economic but mainly ideological reasons, so is not a good model for Scotland or the UK.


Marga, is it true that the Madrid government's stance vis a vis both the Basque country and Catalonia that they would not recognise any independence referendums called by their "devolved" governments?

It seems they are very much more centralist in that respect, whereas even arch Unionists in the UK/Scotland seem to accept that Scotland has the right to become independent if that is what the amjority of Scots vote for.
 
 
# Basil Metabolism 2012-07-27 17:31
Quoting Galen10:
Quoting Marga B:
Basil, not all of Spain is like the Basque country, which raises and spends its own taxes, returning what's needed for central services. The common system is a series of devolved regions.

Anyway it is currently being recentralised for economic but mainly ideological reasons, so is not a good model for Scotland or the UK.


Marga, is it true that the Madrid government's stance vis a vis both the Basque country and Catalonia that they would not recognise any independence referendums called by their "devolved" governments?

It seems they are very much more centralist in that respect, whereas even arch Unionists in the UK/Scotland seem to accept that Scotland has the right to become independent if that is what the amjority of Scots vote for.


I was aware of the restrictions on these "communities" as the constituion calls them, and that's why I feel their system is at the bottom end of the autonomy scale. Like Scotland there is no constitutional protection for thier autonomy, unlike in a real federation where recentralising power would be difficult if not close to impossible. After all, how many federated countries have gone back to being centralised? federalisation is practilcally irreversible.
 
 
# Marga B 2012-07-27 19:40
It gets worse, Basil, referendums won't just be unrecognised, it is illegal to hold one. But that is a minor problem now in bailed-out Spain - just today the FMI issued a cruel and inhumane report:

www.imf.org/.../cr12202.pdf

Almost all the blame for overspending is being heaped unjustly on the regions, including Catalonia (same GDP as Portugal), and they have a year to make eyewatering cuts - since most are bankrupt already only destruction and/or privatisation of all public education, health and welfare can hope to meet them. Unemployment is currently nearly 25% and rising.

Extract here: "Warnings, penalties and the possibility for taking a region into national administration are envisioned in the law as progressive penalties for persistently deviating regions."

Last year the two big parties signed away constitutional protection for citizens in exchange for bailouts from Europe and there is no protection for the people at all. Catalonia is about to be bailed out, and the political, cultural and linguistic conditions will be merciless.

I don't think UK citizens quite appreciate what is happening in Europe.
 
 
# Basil Metabolism 2012-07-28 11:32
Sadly Marga, they're in a not much better postion than ourselves. We've no right to a referendum either technically speaking.

Having said that, there were no referenda at all in Czechoslovakia IIRC. Both countries simply voted in parties that wanted separation and, taking that as a mandate, then started negotiations I believe.

A reversible pseudofederalis m like in Spain is a mirage and offers us little. Even Belgium's components have more autonomy (I think).
 
 
# maxstafford 2012-07-27 12:47
Why would we want an alternative to independence, Exel?
It's looked increasingly like the only sane option over the last thirty years
 
 
# H Scott 2012-07-27 13:52
Westminster will never allow control of oil and gas to pass to Scotland, never mind anything else. This makes devo-max a non-option. It's possible Westminster might come up with some lesser devo option if the polls show Scotland heading for independence, David Cameron has kept that option open without committing to it.
 
 
# Jamieson 2012-07-27 15:05
Quote:
Maybe, by 2014, independence effectively will be Devo Max - as near as dammit anyway - since the SNP plans to "share" monetary, defence and foreign policy powers with the rUK by keeping the Queen, the pound, joining NATO and continuing to “feel British.”


There is a lack of rigour in that statement,which belies your intelligence. The SNP doesn't plan to 'share' any of those things with the rUK Government. It proposes that it may, as a Sovereign State, attempt to enter into agreements with the rUK and organisations with which the rUK Government also has agreements concerning the matters quoted. That is a far cry from 'sharing'.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 15:44
It isn't necessarily in the gift of the SNP in any case: who is to say whether the SNP will form the first government post independence? For all we know, they may implode and split into different parties, or they may find themselves in coalition with another party.

Even if they do emerge as the biggest party, or have an absolute majority, it is fanciful to expect that there will not either be some form of constitutional convention, and/or Holyrood election at which the parties in an independent Scotland can set out their stalls with what vision they have for Scotland's future political landscape.

That is the time for discussions about whether we keep the pound, or remain in NATO, on what the terms are for removing nuclear weapons, membership of the EU or Euro, whether the Queen is the preferred head of state.

The SNP (or indeed any other party or interest group) should feel quite free to propose, but it is for the Scottish people to dispose!
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 16:51
@ Lesley

This... it's just so true:

"For modern, federal, European social democrats that’s a massively defeatist stance. There’s no evidence that autonomy for nations within sovereign states speedily results in independence - except in binary, over-centralised Britain where long suppressed demand tends to explode when the possibility of “self government” finally arises."


The trouble is of course, Labour AREN'T modern, European, social-democrats any longer. That ship sailed some time ago, and now that the LibDem's have essentially committed electoral seppuku there is simply no engine capable of driving the devolutionist agenda forward, still less a fully fledged federal make-over of the creaking UK polity.

The SNP's stance on the whole referendum issue at least has the ring of honesty, and is coherent, whether you agree with the ultimate aim or not. They are doing what they said they would do.

The Scottish Labour party is so woefully ill-prepared to champion the case for devo-whatever / FFA that it must make the dwindling number of their more thoughtful remaining members and activists cringe.

One option or two options may be the single question that matters in 2014, but I'm increasingly convinced that even if the result is NO, the ultimate destination can only be full independence because devolution as a project lacks any "champion" to encapsulate for the Scottish people what it will consist of, or to ensure that it can be forced through Westminster.
 
 
# Hersel 2012-07-27 18:25
From now up until 2014 it needs to be hammered home to the people of Scotland that we are going to get Absolutely Nothing! from Westminster. In fact if we vote no to independence in 2014 we will have given the green light to any future UK government who will think as we have rejected independence it will have a mandate to do what the hell they like with Scotland. Far from gaining more powers we will be in danger of losing the little we have been given, including our parliament which Westminster has the power to dissolve at any time.
No! to Devo - Anything, Yes! to Independence and a chance for Scotland’s future to be in Scotland’s hands.
You wouldn’t let your next door neighbours run your household so why your country!
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-27 18:53
Your scenario is possible, but I'm convinced that it grows more and more unlikely, unless the vote in 2014 is crushingly in favour of NO (which hardly seems on the cards).

If the NO vote is only narrow, I just don't accept the Cassandra view that the cause of independence will be set back decades or even (say) 5 or 10 years. a modicum of patience may be necessary, yes... but then we've waited 300, so the odd year or two, whilst galling is of no matter.

The problem for devolutionists and Unionists, is that a NO vote will put the onus on them to come up with the goods.... and I honestly don't think they can, even if they had the will to do it, which must also be highly questionable.

What forces are going to come up with the dev-mebbe / FFA roadmap? Newer Labour... especially if it fails to win the Westminster GE in 2015? Hardly!

The LibDems? Don't make me laugh!

The Scottish Convention or some derivative perhaps? That might work... but only if it had the support of independistas, whether SNP or not.

The most likely scenario post a NO vote in 2014 it seems to me, is an abject failure on the part of Unionists to get their acts together, followed by SNP gains at Westminster and Holyrood at successive elections, followed by Referendum II which will result either in FFA or independence.

That seems at least as likely (and on balance a good deal more likely) than the Unionist ascendancy managing to stuff the genie of independence back into the bottle.

Lord Robertson must rue the day he uttered his only memorable witticism about devolution killing independence eh?
 
 
# call me dave 2012-07-27 18:47
O/T: Bateman & Fraser better together!
--------------------------------------
Good Morning Scotland programme prepares for first Saturday broadcast

It will be presented by Derek Bateman and Isabel Fraser, who will explore issues in Scotland and across the world.

bbc.co.uk/.../...
 
 
# denmylne 2012-07-27 19:32
"And I’d say that whether I personally support independence or the status quo - because it’s true"

Im not sure what this means lesley??

Why is removing power from westminster a bad idea? most of the english folk i know would love to be shot of the lot of them.

It is also churlish to suggest that westminster has anything to do with whether I am british or not. Britain exists, not because of politicians or governements, britain exists inspite of these institutions.
we will all remain british regardless of what cameron or salmond says, in fact, for cameron to suggest otherwise is plain arrogance

Vote yes
 
 
# Hmm 2012-07-27 19:50
I agree.
But i would say the question is now independence or devo-whatever.
The reason i say that is i think we will be independent. In the 2014 vote or later on.
Devo-whatever, i believe, would lead to independence sooner or later.
 
 
# exel 2012-07-27 20:15
Macart 2012-07-27 08:59
“What they are proposing to the electorate is known these days as Indy lite. Its extremely appealing to the current devo max voter you know (anyone see where this is going?). But who says that's the end of the journey? Who says a few years down the line, when negotiations are settled and an oil/resource fund is in place and stocking up the readies nicely, that there won't be a Scottish currency for instance? The Scottish Government is duty and honour bound to recognise the devo whatever voter, but being smarter than the average bear, are quite familiar with the fact they cannot deliver on devo max therefore.................. offer the electorate something they can feel familiar and safe with.”

What they are proposing (I would like to see it from a member of the SNP cabinet) is a fat big con. Are you seriously suggesting that the Scottish electorate are going to be offered the choice between Independence and “Indy Lite”?

As I said earlier to-day the SNP “In 80 years they have painted themselves into a corner (the independence corner) and cannot find a way out”.

BTW can anyone explain why comments were posted before this article apppeared on NNS.

For example:DonaldM hor 2012-07-26 22:14 and several others.
 
 
# Macart 2012-07-27 22:36
No exel I'm saying they're painting a user friendly vision of independence for the undecided/devo max voter. An independence where initially we are pegged to the pound sterling, where the Queen is head of state, where a social union is to the fore and nato membership may be on the cards. I seriously doubt there will be a second question at all for all the reasons well documented in other posts on this thread.

As for the SNP and by extension the greater cross party movement being con artists painting themselves into an independence corner. Well that is your opinion and one you are entitled to. I will simply say that I disagree with your assessment.
 
 
# exel 2012-07-28 11:40
@Macart; With all due respect that is the con, by painting “a user friendly vision”, that is what political parties do and this stifles honest debate.

It has nothing to do with Scots aspirations and the obvious desire for less top down diktat and more say in how we are governed (self determination).

I have no argument with the “greater cross party movement” you are trying to put words in my mouth.

If the UK is not for reforming it is down to the people of Scotland (not the political parties) to decide what system of government we wish.

As Lesley says we are not being asked, we are being told what the narrow choice is; Secession or Status quo.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-28 15:47
@excel: more misinformation on your part I'm afraid. In what sense are we being "told" anything? Some may not like the fact that there is no devo-max option (currently) being provided, but there is nothing to stop those in favour of coming up with such a third option. The SG has openly said that it is not for them to do it, which seems eminently sensible, both because they don't believe in it, and because the Unionists would go off on one if the SNP were seen to be doing it anyway.

Your premise is totally flawed (stun us with another... seems to be your modus operandi), because not only have the SNP NOT painted themselves into a corner, they are delivering what they promised to do and have a mandate for.

The Unionists however are responsible for failing the Scottish electorate by not coming up with a coherent alternative, partly because they are incompetent but partly because they know they can't make good on their "jam tomorrow" promise of future devolution, let alone tell us what it will consist of, when it will happen, and how they plan to get it through Westminster. Their promise is of course just a cynical ploy even more breathtaking in scope and arrogance than the broken promises made after the shamefully rigged 1979 referendum for devo-lite.

The Scottish people ARE deciding what form of government they wish; they can do it in a number of ways, of which the 2014 referendum is only one. If they vote YES then your cavilling about the lack of a devo-max choice, or lack of a constitution is moot... things will progress in spite of all the hysterical Unionist scare stories that the sky will fall down.

However, if the vote is NO, the Scottish people can still decide, either in a future referendum, or by electing representatives accordingly, to put a FFA/ devo-max settlement forward as their "price" for remaining within the UK. Should the Unionist establishment (on both sides of the border) refuse, or be unable to make it happen, then we can rely on the good sense of the Scottish people to draw their own conclusions.
 
 
# forrabest 2012-07-28 16:21
Lesley says the first time the option for "more powers from Westminster" was used by the pollsters was 2011. Whoever commissioned this poll and the subsequent one must presumably have been in agreement as to the three options offered to respondents. Who commissioned these polls, Scottish Government,SNP, A.Nother and what did they expect to do with the results. Seems to me that those respondants were given a false choice as there can only be a yes/no choice in the referendum.
 
 
# exel 2012-07-28 23:02
Jamieson 2012-07-27 14:50
“I fully agree with you. Arguing over a written constitution before the Referendum would be a death trap for Independence. A complete waste of time and effort.”

What a little gem that is Jamieson. I think not, informed discussion is not an argument it is called “A Debate” and is never a waste of time. That is assuming that those debating do not take entrenched positions, in this case party political positions.

The people of Scotland have worked it out that the UK unwritten constitution is the reason democracy is not working.

They voted for devolution in the hope (in vain hope it turned out) that they could attain self determination.

Now Scots are being told by the SNP sycophants that they must agree to secession negotiations before they can have a debate on how they are to be governed in the new independent state of Scotland. That is not a very good way of convincing voters to say YES.

Who is going to carry out the negotiations’ to set aside the treaties?

How are the views of the people to be expressed?

Who is to govern Scotland in the interim?

Is the present executive to carry on or is a constitutional convention to be set up by Holyrood?
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-29 08:38
The Scots people are quite capable of working out for themselves that the detailed debate on the future constitutional landscape can safely be left until after a YES vote in 2014, since as has been pointed out to you many times before, to do so beforehand is a waste of effort, and a diversion from the task at hand.

The vast majority of those who have not yet decided are NOT going to be swayed at all by whether such minutiae have been debated, or whether they have been decided.

You have also been repeatedly asked exel to square the circle about what body is supposed to define the constitution over the next few years, and to explain what legitimacy or mandate it would enjoy. Your continued failure to do so, and avoidance of that very debate, shows the weakness of your position. You now appear to be rowing back from your earlier position that the constitution must be decided before the 2014 vote, to a new position that the debate must be had. Have you finally woken up to the illogicality of your plan?

The negotiations post independence will be between whatever party is in power in the newly independent state and rUK; it is vanishingly unlikely that there will not be new elections, or the establishment of a constitutional convention. The sky is not suddenly going to fall on the morning after a YES result... measures will be put in place; none of this is rocket science.

Those who were previously opposed to independence in the Unionist parties will have their chance to form new parties of their own, and no doubt many who currently support the SNP or are members may well join other parties or establish new ones.

You appear to think that the government of Scotland will somehow be paralysed in the interim period between a YES vote and conclusion of the necessary "final" divorce settlement; do you really have so little faith in the Scottish people that you feel we are somehow uniquely incapable of successfully completing this process?

THe present executive should of course continue until the next Holyrood election (unless they decide to step down and call a new election). A YES vote in 2014 is simply the start of a process; it is then that the Scottish people can decide who will carry out the negotiations and what body is best suited to express their views.

Your continued description of anyone who disagrees with you as an SNP sycophant betrays the real purpose of your insistence that we waste time and effort debating these issues now: you don't insist that the Unionists deliver a similarly detailed plan for their alternative, because you know it isn't going to happen. What is sauce for the goose is surely sauce for the gander.

It is up to the Unionist parties, and other opponents of independence to come up with an alternative coherent plan. We are all capable of discerning the real reason this will not happen; they have no hope of agreeing a common platform, and even less hope of forcing it through Westminster in the teeth of opposition from the English shires.

So, once again exel I call upon you to explain away the manifest faults in your reasoning; stop avoiding the question and hiding behind the excuse that NNS will not publish an article explaining your views; précis them and convince us here.
 
 
# the wallace 2012-07-29 08:34
Devo max was a trap set for the unionists lets not get caught in it our selves.
 
 
# forrabest 2012-07-29 18:58
I agree that the yes camp should not get caught up in devo-wotsits. It's interesting that you see it as a trap set for the unionists - set by whom?
 
 
# exel 2012-07-29 12:24
Galen 10 wrote: “You appear to think that the government of Scotland will somehow be paralysed in the interim period between a YES vote and conclusion of the necessary "final" divorce settlement; do you really have so little faith in the Scottish people that you feel we are somehow uniquely incapable of successfully completing this process?”

Incorrect I asked; “Who is to govern Scotland in the interim? Is the present executive to carry on or is a constitutional convention to be set up by Holyrood?

Your answer; “THe present executive should of course continue until the next Holyrood election (unless they decide to step down and call a new election). A YES vote in 2014 is simply the start of a process; it is then that the Scottish people can decide who will carry out the negotiations and what body is best suited to express their views.”

Do you mean the SNP continue to govern under the present system and we have a referendum on “who is to carry out negotiations” or do you mean the SNP will carry out the negotiations for US?

I think I prefer your bracketed alternative “unless they decide to step down and call a new election”. Then the Scottish electorate WILL DECIDE !
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-29 16:19
Excel, there IS bound to be an interim; on "I" day + 1 in 2014, it is hardly reasonable to expect wands to be waved and everything to happen overnight.

Of course the SNP should not carry out the negotiations for us, unless they have been given a mandate to do so by the Scottish people. My preferred path would be for the direct election of a Constitutional Convention tasked with the purpose of drawing up a written constitution for ratification by the people in a referendum..... altho' I'd settle for the constitution being ratified by a "new" parliament elected after 2014.

Realistically, it will take months to come up with a new constitution, and the negotiations with rUK are likely to take longer and probably longer than it will take for a "new" Scottish government to be elected, and a new constitution to be put in place.

As you say, it is for the Scottish people (ALL of them) to decide these matters, not you, not me, not the SNP.

The post independence landscape of the new state needs to reflect the settled will of the Scottish people; it can't be second guessed now, nor can it be hijacked by any one party, civic group or collection of interests.

An independent Scotland needs to show how and why it is different from the failed Westminster system, and demonstrate why the Scottish people were right to take the leap of faith required to prove the Unionist Cassandra's were talking through their hats as most of us have long suspected.
 
 
# exel 2012-07-29 17:14
Galen10 2012-07-29 16:19
“Excel, there IS bound to be an interim; on "I" day + 1 in 2014, it is hardly reasonable to expect wands to be waved and everything to happen overnight.”

What is this “I” day +1 in 2014 Galen? Do you mean YES day +1?

EXEL does not expect “wands” to be waved, my motion sometime ago was for the Holyrood parliament to set up a
Constitutional Convention now, they have 2 years+ to offer A WRITTEN CONSTITUTION for ratification by the people as part of the 2014 referendum.
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-29 17:29
It isn't UP to the devolved parliament to set up a Constitutional Convention. Answer the question that has been asked of you on more than one occasion: what legitimacy would such a body enjoy, and where is it's mandate for establishing such a body?

We are going to be more than occupied enough over the next 2 years with the main event; what is the point in spending time and effort addressing the detail of the post independence settlement if the vote is NO?

The only way of answering the questions about legitimacy and mandate above is to wait until after YES day + 1 if you prefer, and ensure that the body which decides these matters is either specifically elected for the purpose by a vote ALL of the Scottish people, or has been voted on and passed by a newly elected parliament. Simples.
 
 
# Adrian B 2012-07-29 18:44
MUST READ!!!!

I have liked Lesley Riddochs happy face of journalism over recent months and have found it to be a breath or fresh air to have a journalist be so open to debate and discussion over Scotland's future. She has taken part in debates and penned many on-line articles that I have enjoyed being a part of. I feel that many others have shown similar sentiments over the course of the last few months.

When I first read Lesley's above piece above I felt as if there was something missing in the background, the analysis that she provided was certainly valid. Somehow there was some meat missing from the bones of the article to add further depth of the story. However at the time I was unable to figure out what is was.

That missing background has I feel just come into view over the horizon. As often happens with many news stories, they start with some information and over the course of time more of the story comes to light and develops new headlines as a sequence of events unfold. That is indeed the case in this instance.

Lesley's piece on a number of successive polls showing further devolved powers being the Scots favoured choice is not the news in it's self, rather I think it's the timing of her piece that is important here.

Lesley's writing alludes to serving as a warning to the reader over the Devo question and who puts this option to the electorit. She goes on to flesh out what the Devo options would mean.

I saw the Devo question as something that I did not want and commented accordingly.

What that I have seen unravel in the press and on-line today for me puts this article into further prospective. The meat on the bones of this story has gained much depth and not by adding stock or further flavouring to the stew.

In an article published in The Scotland on Sunday today a new Scottish think-tank named 'The Scotland Institute' has issued a press release, which forms the basis of the story.

Here is a part of this piece

The Scotland Institute was set up by Scottish entrepreneur Azeem Ibrahim last month, with backing from former chancellor Alistair Darling and ex-SNP Enterprise Minister Jim Mather. It des­cribes itself as a “progressive” think-tank which aims to 
produce papers on policy in the run-up to the independence referendum.

link; scotsman.com/.../...

Please read the whole article

Now the next bit, who is the Scotland Institute, and what do they stand for? The Rev Stu was wondering about this also, and produced a short piece. More revealing is some of the information gleaned by some of those who have posted.

wingsland.podgamer.com/.../

The first post by James Morton gives a good indication of what we are actually up against.

Is this the Labour party running scared of a no vote, and using this 'think-tank' to add strength to a Devo option, while this think-tank bashes Independence with further press releases? Yes this is what I indeed think may well happen.

It would appear that Labour is trying to manoeuvre into a political position across the UK where it is seen as a viable party in Government to offer the Scots Jam tomorrow.

More investigative journalism is required, but with Better Together being tainted because many see it as being run by the Tories and with no information forthcoming on it's backers. You have to ask what Labour have been doing since BT was launched? Alistair Darling has been very quiet for the past 5 weeks - and it's not only down to the Libor scandal that he has been keeping a low profile.

Here is Johann Lamonts comments again from the SOS article. Don't know about you, but I can hear her shouting in my head as I read this - it's very tiring.

But Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont responded: “This report shows that Alex Salmond’s plans have nothing to do with addressing poverty or solving any of Scotland’s other problems.

“He has tailored his plans not to meet Scotland’s needs, but instead to try to con Scots into buying his flawed prospectus. “

She went on: “The starting- point should be what does Scotland need to do and how do we do it. Salmond’s starting-point is how do we leave the UK and everything else is secondary.”


The following quote from SOS, should be the real story.

Martin Crewe, director of Barnardo’s Scotland, said: “There has never been a more urgent need to put in place

opportunities for families to pull themselves out of poverty.

“Not to do so will run the risk of failing as a society and developing a permanent class of excluded and impoverished children and the resultant poor social outcomes that this creates.”
 
 
# exel 2012-07-29 20:05
Galen10 2012-07-29 17:29
“It isn't UP to the devolved parliament to set up a Constitutional Convention. Answer the question that has been asked of you on more than one occasion: what legitimacy would such a body enjoy, and where is it's mandate for establishing such a body?”

Galen asks; what legitimacy would such a body enjoy, and where is it's mandate for establishing such a body?”

The previous Scottish Constitutional Convention (SCC) was an association of Scottish political parties, churches and other civic groups, that developed a framework for a Scottish devolution. It is credited as having paved the way for the establishment of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.

I know of no reason, other than the SNP majority at Holyrood opposing the setting up of another one. Does that answer your question?
 
 
# Galen10 2012-07-30 08:27
Quoting exel:
The previous Scottish Constitutional Convention (SCC) was an association of Scottish political parties, churches and other civic groups, that developed a framework for a Scottish devolution. It is credited as having paved the way for the establishment of the Scottish Parliament in 1999.

I know of no reason, other than the SNP majority at Holyrood opposing the setting up of another one. Does that answer your question?


No, it doesn't answer the question, because you haven't explained why such a group could be viewed as having a mandate or be regarded as legitimate, except with reference to the role a similar body played in framing the devolution debate.

The Scottish people don't need a glorified ginger-group of self appointed civic bodies attempting to second guess their constiutional future. However well meaning these groups, and however valuable their proposals, they will reflect their own narrow interests, or their interpretation of what is good for the Scottish people.

By all means let them knock themselves out describing what our French friends call "castles in Spain".

Whether the SNP in Holyrood opposes the establishment on a "new" convention is neither here nor there. You still haven't addressed the basic question of whether such a body would have a real mandate, or whether it's findings would be viewed as a legitimate expression of the will of the Scottish people as a whole, or just of certainsections of it, irrespective of whether it was actually a good use of anyone's time and efforts prior to finding out the result of the 2014 referendum.
 
 
# forrabest 2012-07-31 21:47
The devo-max hype has been bugging me so I asked Chris Eynort of TNS BMRB who had commissioned the polls that Lesley refers to and who chose the 3 options for responses. His reply was that TNS carried out the Jan2012 poll of its own volition using the same wording chosen by the BBC for the previous poll in Oct2011 which the BBC had commissioned from TSN. Maybe there is nothing wrong with any of this but I just had to know where the surge in publicity for devo-max emanated. Thought I would let folk on NNS know.
 
 
# oldnat 2012-07-31 22:06
Thanks for that.

One of the things we do know is that (by and large) professional pollsters often ask questions that allow them to track change in opinion. When they ask questions commissioned by partisan groups, the distortions caused by bad questions become obvious.
 

You must be logged-in in order to post a comment.

Banner
Banner

Donate to Newsnet Scotland

Latest Comments