General
Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:16
By Martin Kelly
Scottish Secretary of State Michael Moore is this evening facing calls to explain why Scotland’s most senior Catholic was not invited to join an official UK delegation on a visit to meet with Pope Benedict XVI.
The official Vatican trip, arranged by the UK Foreign Office, included the head of the Catholic Church in England & Wales, Archbishop Vincent Nichols, but no invite was extended to Scotland’s Cardinal O’Brien.
Cardinal O’Brien, as well as being the most senior clergyman in Scotland, is also the head of the Church in the UK – outranking the Archbishop of Westminster who was personally invited by UK Cabinet Minister Baroness Warsi.
The trip, which took place today, saw the Tory Peer Warsi and other UK Ministers including Scottish Secretary Michael Moore, Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt and Alan Duncan the Minister for International Development, meet with Vatican officials in face to face talks.
British Ambassador Nigel Baker was also present at the meeting which saw the Pope receive a message from the Queen and a letter from UK PM David Cameron.
Peter Kearney, of the Scottish Catholic Media Office said: “This is a very unfortunate oversight on the part of the UK Government to have pulled together a high level delegation to visit the Holy See to have an audience with the Pope and not, ironically, to have included Britain’s most senior Catholic, Cardinal Keith O’Brien.”
It is understood Cardinal O’Brien only learned of the planned visit last Thursday. Asked why Cardinal O’Brien had not been invited, Michael Moore claimed that it was up to the Vatican to invite him.
However Mr Moore will surely face questions after it emerged that Archbishop Nichols was officially invited by a UK Government Minister. There will also be questions for the UK Government to answer given that the visit was clearly seen as a very high level delegation representing the Queen and the UK PM.
An outspoken figure, Cardinal O’Brien has made his views known on many issues from same sex marriage to nuclear weapons on the Clyde.
The snub will fuel speculation that the Cardinal’s views on Scottish independence may have been behind the invitation oversight.
The senior Clergyman is on record as saying he would be “happy” if Scots voted for independence and that it would be coming “before too long”.
Comments
2012-02-15 22:34
Moore caught out lying again
What a surprise
Looks more, to me, as if Moore is already accepting that Scotland IS an independent country and should thus be the one to invite the RC Hecht Heid Ane. Not for the first time has Moore’s actions shown that he Thinks England is independent of not only Scotland but of the United Kingdom. After all did invite what HE THOUGH OF as the Hight Head One of the English Roman Catholic Church – not that of the UK.
2012-02-15 23:18
It would have been made clear to the government by officials that Cardinal O’Brien should have been on the VIP guest list. It’s a plain and simple snub by ‘call me Dave’s political cleek’!
I’m not a catholic but if I were I can see that it might upset me.
Anyhoo! another poor show and another Westminster clanger!
2012-02-15 21:36
2012-02-15 21:54
Yes it seems that they do or we would not be subject to their ridiculous scare stories every 5 minutes.
No, I don’t get it either.
Regards,
ps Don’t recognise your moniker. If you’re new, a very warm welcome. If not, sorry.
2012-02-15 22:09
Have been here a few weeks though haven’t posted much. But thanks for the welcome.
Their tactics are completely bizarre. However I wonder if it simply didn’t occur to them that a Scottish Cardinal could be head of the UK Catholic Church.
2012-02-15 22:17
Hi RaboRuglen,
Have been here a few weeks though haven’t posted much. But thanks for the welcome.
Their tactics are completely bizarre. However I wonder if it simply didn’t occur to them that a Scottish Cardinal could be head of the UK Catholic Church.
They think we are all wee frees up here
2012-02-15 22:22
Hi RaboRuglen,
Have been here a few weeks though haven’t posted much. But thanks for the welcome.
Their tactics are completely bizarre. However I wonder if it simply didn’t occur to them that a Scottish Cardinal could be head of the UK Catholic Church.
Surely the Archbishop of Yes Minister could have put them right?
2012-02-15 22:35
However I wonder if it simply didn’t occur to them that a Scottish Cardinal could be head of the UK Catholic Church.
As a protestant catholic (practising but largely failing and usually non attending) I didn’t know that. However the UK gov employ people to ensure diplomatic etiquette is assured. How come they didn’t know? Answers on the back of a fag packet….
Wouldn’t it have been wonderful if the first words the Pope uttered were ” Oi Moore mush, where’s our much loved O’Brian?” In Latin of course, to keep with the spirit of the occasion you understand.
2012-02-15 23:04
2012-02-16 00:06
2012-02-16 00:20
There is no UK Catholic church. The Catholic church in England and Wales is entirely separate administrativel y from the Catholic church in Scotland. The Scottish Catholic hierarchy answers directly to the Vatican as a “special daughter of the Church”.
If that’s the case what’s Michael Moore got to do with it?
2012-02-16 01:09
There is no UK Catholic church. The Catholic church in England and Wales is entirely separate administrativel y from the Catholic church in Scotland. The Scottish Catholic hierarchy answers directly to the Vatican as a “special daughter of the Church”.
As I posted on another thread, I as a non practising member of the Church of Scotland, am still fully aware that a Cardinal is the highest rank in the Church of Rome, under the Pope. So, how did this Warsi woman not know that? My only conclusion is that she did know and the inclusion of the English Archbishop was a deliberate snub to Cardinal O’Brien and the uppity Scots.
Maybe she’s been reading her history, and learned that one of the main supporters of Scottish independence during the 13th century wars, was the Church (aw Kaffliks, nae Proddies at that time). So she thinks Cardinal O’Brien will team up with Canon Kenyon Wright on the side of the “separationists”.
2012-02-16 11:37
There’s no doubt it was intended as a snub and ignored protocols.
2012-02-15 21:49
2012-02-15 21:54
2012-02-15 23:09
2012-02-16 01:16
2012-02-15 21:58
The unionists are operating on the whipped dog principal. The more you whip it, or in this case ignore it’s existence, the more it crawls after you to seek your recognition and affection.
Oh Dear. Major faux pas. Not only are they upsetting Scotland’s Catholics again, they are insulting Scotland’s Cardinal who just happens to be the most senior Catholic in the UK.
The good Baroness clearly sees herself as the new Thatcher, in which case we must be sure to send her numerous invitations to come and speak in Scotland that we might all bathe in her vast fountains of wisdom.
VOTE YES
2012-02-16 11:23
Quote:
The unionists are operating on the whipped dog principal. The more you whip it, or in this case ignore it’s existence, the more it crawls after you to seek your recognition and affection.
Yes, I think you’re right. The Cardinal was probably excluded purposely on the arrogant assumption that the Scots need to be constantly reminded that they are too small to participate in matters international or of any import.
2012-02-15 22:01
What bothered me was the Papal visit to Scotland and the moderator of the Church of Scotland was shut out, leaving the Queen and some English Bishops to dominate the show.
2012-02-15 22:40
2012-02-15 22:08
2012-02-15 22:10
2012-02-15 22:25
And weary Wullie is again given a platform to let us ken how we are better off being subservient
Aye!
——————
“Scotland’s global economic impact came as being a strong part of the UK”.
“Far from giving Scotland more influence over the global economy, splitting Scotland from the UK would give us less.”
—————————————–
Do you think that this fits in with his ‘Home Rule’ stuff.
OH! Whatever happened to the Lib/Dum think tank about home rule?
It’s time they were all rooted out and some decent folk with real principles started standing for the Lib/Dums.
Alexander’s bus for Rennie!
2012-02-15 22:36
The brief was given to dreary auld Ming he’s probably forgotten what he was meant to be doing about it
2012-02-15 22:41
I don’t want influence over the global economy. I want influence over the Scottish economy.
If any politician thinks the UK can influence the global economy, could they try influencing it out of the shit? Thanks.
2012-02-15 22:50
PS apologies for being pedantic…but you’ll agree that when pinning the tail to a donkey it is important that you know the donkey’s proper name.
2012-02-15 23:05
I beg your pardon
I agree we must get things right and be above reproach
I wouldn’t like to miss the ass with the pin (not his anyway)
2012-02-16 00:39
Whereas, here we’ve an imposter for a politician, a richt wearie Willie indeed, who should be jammed into a bucket and never heard of again!
2012-02-15 23:01
“Scottish Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie said Scotland’s global economic impact came as being a strong part of the UK.
He added: “Far from giving Scotland more influence over the global economy, splitting Scotland from the UK would give us less.”
I find it embarrassing that the leader of any party in Scotland is quite so incompetent. God knows how the LDs feel
Presumably Rennie thinks that the Isle of Bute has “more influence over the global economy” because it is part of the UK,
2012-02-16 10:27
Ken Macintosh – History Graduate, career as a television producer
Alex Salmond – Joint History and Economics degree (plus visiting Professor of Economics at Strathclyde University), career Economist (also created the RBS / BBC oil index).
I know who I would go to for advice on the future oil revenue in the seas around Scotland.
2012-02-15 22:08
2012-02-15 22:13
Welcome to our world!!!!
2012-02-15 22:19
2012-02-15 22:34
Apart from the City of London the UK has almost no economic impact whatsoever. Most of the most “influential” bits of UK industry are foreign owned along with most of the major utilities.
2012-02-15 22:40
Why would there be an expectation that the government should be the one to invite multiple representatives from the church to the Vatican. If the Vatican wanted C. O’Brien there, could they not have called him in themselves?
2012-02-15 22:53
So possibly the The Vatican did’nt want any of them there because, if they did, they would have most certainly invited the head of the Catholic Church in the UK – dont you think ?
2012-02-16 00:48
A wee bit historical background will no go amiss at this time either.
The Declaration of Arbroath, 6th April, 1320 was sent to no other personage than the Pope, who ratified and endorsed its validity and aims.
I am frankly at a loss trying to understand the monumental blunders this UK Gov are making as the next opportunity presents itself for the SNP Scottish Government to now go to Rome, with the Head of the Catholic Community in the UK, the Scottish Cardinal O’Brian, to con-celebrate this rare historical event with a living document that is about to be invoked.
2012-02-15 22:48
2012-02-15 23:03
Sorry guys….just a daft thought from Rob ;-)) don’t twitch the key boards.
2012-02-15 23:14
2012-02-15 22:51
I wonder why the Wall St. Journal is taking such a huge interest in the affairs of Scotland.
I counted 3 seperate articles on Scotland and it’s economy today.
This one :-http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880 404577224831981313426.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
was posted by Ruth Porter (London school of economics) has a couple of well worn myths embeded. Someone should take the time to set the journal straight. Any bidders?
2012-02-15 23:34
O/T
I wonder why the Wall St. Journal is taking such a huge interest in the affairs of Scotland.
I counted 3 seperate articles on Scotland and it’s economy today.
This one :-http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880 404577224831981313426.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
was posted by Ruth Porter (London school of economics) has a couple of well worn myths embeded. Someone should take the time to set the journal straight. Any bidders?
Hen Broon has opened up on her ;O)))))
2012-02-16 00:22
That should take the wind out her sails and make her look exactly what she is- an ill informed London centric fool.
Oh the embarrassment 🙂
2012-02-16 10:58
_______________ ____________
I am not a Scottish Nationalist but this article is the biggest load of baloney that I’ve read yet about this issue. Rather than rebutting every lie that it propagates lets focus on one part of the ‘Scottish’ economy, it’s 90-95% share of North sea oil and gas. This sector has been widely reported to contribute no more than 11-12billion per year to the UK economy and thus won’t make that much difference to an independent Scotland.
The real figures are more shocking. I enclose an excerpt from a commons debate initiated by the Conservative MP Nicolas Soames in 2011. This is just one thing that Scotland with 5million people (8% of the UK total) gains on independence.
NICHOLAS SOAMES SECURES ADJOURNMENT
DEBATE IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON NORTH SEA OIL AND GAS
HC 1018-i and -ii.]
“The taxes forecast to be raised from the industry in 2011-12 include some £6 billion in income tax, national insurance contributions and corporation tax paid by the supply chain companies, with an additional £11 billion from taxes on production itself. That amounts to 25% of all the corporation tax received by the Exchequer. The production of indigenous oil and gas improved the balance of payments by £35 billion in 2011, thus halving the trade deficit, and the supply chain added another £5 billion to £6 billion with exports of oilfield goods and services. Incidentally, that is an aspect of the industry that is doing extremely well here and overseas, and it is flying the flag for Britain effectively”.
Also in the same debate the he mentions that this industry employs over 400,000 people in the UK with more than half outside Scotland.
Thus North sea oil and gas (UK export no: 1) and Scotch Whiskey (UK export no: 3) contributes more to the UK economy than the city of London (financial products and insurance) . Combine this with the fact that Scotland will have 55% of Europe’s total oil reserves, 25% of Europes wave power and 25% of Europe’s wind power (all for a nation with less than 1% of Europe’s population) and any suggestions that Scotland will not be financially secure can be viewed as utterly risible (or deliberately mendacious).
_______________ _______________ _____________
Some dodgy figures at the end. I assume by ‘Europe’ the guy means the EU, but still, those figures, from parliament, make for some shocking reading given the lies that have emanated from Westminster over the ‘inconsistency’ in annual North Sea revenues.
2012-02-16 12:50
We’re all focusing on what would happen to Scotland and rumpuk after Independence in Europe, but what would happen to the “UK’s” permanent seat at the UN and NATO. Maybe that’s what’s really at the bottom of all this (other than oil of course)
2012-02-15 23:07
It certainly looks more than odd however that the Cardinal wasn’t invited.
2012-02-15 23:22
If you are going to comment on religious matters, at least get your terminology right.
2012-02-16 02:31
In the RC and CofE it would also include Bishops, deacons etc.
2012-02-16 02:43
He had a theological degree. I don’t. If he was wrong, then no doubt there is a wider theological debate that could examine how many angels could dance on the head of a Presbyterian minister’s kilt pin.
Forgive me if I don’t wish to take part in such a debate!
2012-02-16 02:53
Sorry if that offends.
2012-02-16 03:04
2012-02-15 23:15
2012-02-15 23:18
His abilities will be stretched to the limit doing that
2012-02-15 23:24
I think we can do without religious organisations of any stripe trying to keep their feet in the door of government – even if it is just putting prayer on the literal agenda of council meetings.
A great idea the Americans had, which they seem to have forgotten, tragically: keep chirch and government (even the unelected baronial arm of government) separate.
2012-02-15 23:31
latest rumours say Matheson is finished…lol
2012-02-15 23:37
Don’t forget call me Dave is visiting Alex too His courtesy visit FM made fun of that statement
2012-02-15 23:42
What government to date has even started to eradicate this ?
Religious groups are not out for self gain but are their to give a voice to all of the above problems and more.
How would you feel if it was one of the Religious Organisations that swung the YES vote ? . What if, when it comes down to it, we needed just 2% more to swing it – would you rather they butted out ?
2012-02-16 06:51
Traditionally, religious leaders have had considerable influence on public affairs, as the church (of whichever flavour) played a significant and central role in the lives of a large proportion of society. It’s fair to say that simply isn’t the case any longer, and while the laws of inertia dictate that religious heads will continue to voice their thoughts it is time we reconsidered whether they should still be afforded the same degree of prominence, or – frankly – deference. But that ought to be done objectively, based on how much of society they actually represent, not because they could be a handy ally.
2012-02-15 23:27
Their ineptitude knows no bounds.
2012-02-15 23:35
After all the last time we had an independence stushy with England the Scottish Bishop’s and the Pope’s man in Scotland were fully behind it (partly because they had no intention of being controlled by the See of Canterbury). Funny how history repeats itself ….. 🙂
2012-02-15 23:39
2012-02-15 23:49
However, the RC Church is hierarchical, and a Cardinal outranks an archbishop – regardless of which part of that church he comes from.
2012-02-16 00:48
There is a potential rich vein of humour that can be extracted from this thread.
Best if I do not commit the cardinal sin of upsetting anyone unduly by irreverent comment.
I attend both the chapel and the kirk from time to time as I am friendly with folk in both religious groups.
I’m hedging my bets.
#:)
2012-02-16 00:19
If my memory serves me correctly this is second time that Cardinal O’Brien has rebuked the SoS for Scotland in recent times:
1. The current one.
2. Skeltor in February of last year.
blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/…/…
The Westmidden Raj in Scotland is really beneath contempt and needs to be abolished… Roll_On_2014
2012-02-16 00:23
Just heard John McFall saying the SG should take Rangers hand what he means I can’t make out don’t know if he was saying it is AS fault.
2012-02-16 00:38
He seemed to be saying, put public money into keeping Rangers afloat, like Brown did with the banks.
I think the public will have had enough o’ that gemme!
2012-02-16 00:45
What he was getting at was, a flapping around attempt (as you rightly guessed), at blaming the Rangers situation on the Scottish Government.
…he was then asked whether he meant ‘effectively’ that; “Rangers would be afforded a financial bail out by the Scottish Government?”… he shrugged the question off and went into waffle mode, repeating that; “No, I’m just saying that, this is an opportunity for the Scottish Government to take Rangers by the hand. “
…he has clearly and completely lost the plot! Sad!
2012-02-16 00:52
Sorry!. .
2012-02-16 01:01
O/T
Just heard John McFall saying the SG should take Rangers hand what he means I can’t make out don’t know if he was saying it is AS fault.
Am I the only one who thinks that Mr. Salmond,so far, is the only commentator to have said anything remotely sensible about this whole Rangers thing…..
2012-02-16 00:32
2012-02-16 00:45
2012-02-16 01:10
I think his fibres are unravelling
2012-02-16 00:51
# jafurn 2012-02-15 19:32
Sounded like more porkies from moore
2012-02-16 01:05
“Why did you build two churches?” he asked the castaway.
“Weel, ye see,” replied the Scotsman, pointing to the other end of the island, “Thon wan doon thair’s the wan Ah dinnae gang tae!”
2012-02-16 01:25
2012-02-16 01:40
Think Snecked’s frustration, along with mine, is that as soon as a headline appears on NNS to do with Religion, no matter what faith, the same old signatories start to go off on one.
This story is to do with the total disregard by the UK government of inviting a Religious leader to an event in Rome, attended by other Religious leaders and MP’s- based on the fact that he is Scottish and is on the side of Independence,
He could be any leader of the Religious faith but this seems to be disregarded by some, who only want to discuss whether their should be any Religion allowed in our Country
2012-02-16 01:52
If NNS has a thread which remotely refers to renewable energy, that is likely to lead to open warfare between zealots on both sides.
It’s hardly dreadful that people can express their opinions, as long as they do it in a manner that isn’t beyond the bounds of robust debate.
2012-02-16 02:37
But I am not surprised
When ever the BBC or other media outlets talk about ‘the head of the Catholic Church in Britain’ the go to the default position of quoting / talking to or featuring the Archbishop of Westminster. They ignore the fact that Scotland does have a Cardinal. Its petty to actually make comparisons, but the reality is there. This latest episode just highlights the arrogance of Westminster, in ignoring Scotland’s Cardinal O’Brien.
What is even more breathtaking is the ignorance of Michael Moore, who supposedly represents Scotland in Westminster, or so we are told.
But I think more than causing a snub to Cardinal O’Brien, is the embaressment as well as diplomatic faux pas created for the Vatican in leaving out the Cardinal,as I would expect the vatican would have expected the Cardinal to have been with the visiting party and would probably have been dismayed that he wasnt present. it would have been interesting to have heard the excuses from the UK Government representatives . I wonder what they mumbled, when asked by the Pope, ‘where is my friend Keith’?
2012-02-16 02:47
Some of his predecessors thought the same!
2012-02-16 03:48
2012-02-16 03:12
2012-02-16 11:10
As I understand it the Cardinal is the head of the Church in Scotland,there is no head of the Church in the UK.It would appear that for some reason Michael Moore was invited as part of an English delegation to the Vatican.
Now he has to get his story right, if it was in fact a UK delegation then the Cardinal should have been there and if the Archbishop was invited by the UK government then the Cardinal should have been invited.There is no way the Vatican would not have been aware of the Cardinal and not invited him if that was what was happening.
Moore has been caught telling porkies.
2012-02-16 11:14
2012-02-16 11:31
2012-02-16 12:17
There have been so many gaffes coming from Westminster’s finest to fuel the Scottish Government’s agenda for independence and with that, the effect will see Labour in Scotland decimated and disappear off the political radar.
With that happening, Labour in Britain’s block vote power base goes oot the windae! Labour no more!
It’s not out of the question and this latest scam to alienate Scotland’s catholic voting block of 12-13 % against the English/UK, will do nothing surer than push them towards the SNP.
Of course, this all presumes that Call Me Dave and his bunch, believe there will be no Scottish independence; Scotland’s tucked away for another generation at least and Labour is left wallowing in an irreversible mess, never to recover.
Even if there is their unthinkable nightmare of independence – they’ll have taken Labour out for good in England.
Fairy Tales? _ I don’t entirely think so!
2012-02-16 12:44
2012-02-16 13:09
…It’s a plain and simple snub by ‘call me Dave’s political cleek’….
You mean “clique” – a “cleek” is a tool I used to rake middens with when I was an inquisitive wean.
Oh wait a minute – you might be right enough!!
2012-02-16 14:41
Quoting call me dave:
…It’s a plain and simple snub by ‘call me Dave’s political cleek’….
You mean “clique” – a “cleek” is a tool I used to rake middens with when I was an inquisitive wean.
Oh wait a minute – you might be right enough!!
Thanks for that Harry.
It sounded right when I wrote it although it looked strange I must admit.
Golf club flitted through my mind at the time too!
#:)
Clique
2012-02-16 18:51
CMD
Did you no run the streets with your girr and cleek as well
Aye (it’s all coming out now)
I called it a gird with a permanent wee circular link onto a handle.
Said uncle in the Burntisland shipyard (see above) made one for me and one for my brother with our names stamped on too!
My mother used to ‘speak proper’ and was always directing me away from the Scots words! Miners rows to pre-fabs and then a nice 3 bedroomed hoose!
Then off to fly on my own!
great times
2012-02-16 19:11
How priviledged you were We lived in a home with no gas elec’ or inside water.Well outside for water oil lamps dry toilet outside and cooking done with pots on sways over an open fire Stone floors At that time there were 8 of us in a room and kitchen Oh happy days
Even our girrs were poorer no ring to hold the cleek
2012-02-16 21:03
Could call it the ‘The darkened room’
LOL
#:)
2012-02-16 15:37
OUR SCOTTISH CARDINAL NOT INVITED—-BEGGARS BELIEF.
Archbishop Vincent Nichols,(Englan d)should immediately phoned ‘whoever’ to point this out.
It’s a sign of just what the English Establishment thinks.
2012-02-16 16:55
As the SoS for Scotland job is actually part time maybe he was invited for his other job- sooker up to the tories!
2012-02-16 18:09
It looks more like a personal pilgrimage in both cases.
2012-02-16 20:54
Donate to Newsnet Scotland
Latest Comments
- Believe in yourself says Sturg...
I've never responded well to intimidatio... - David Cameron pleads with News...
Oh bugger! - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
It is interesting to note that only a fe... - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
What people need to realise is that it's... - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
Ex-BBC Newsnight correspondent Paul Maso... - David Cameron pleads with News...
You do realise Lynda that by not consent... - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
The BBC are leading with Deutsche Bank f... - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
Bullying,blackm ail and threats. Do we r... - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
Jim Sillars is simply giving vivid examp... - The Real IndyRef Division
One thing that is missing from this anal... - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
Mr Salmond must keep the pressure on abo... - David Cameron pleads with News...
Aye, they would have us swallow this. 'E... - RBS leak 'extraordinary' says ...
Funny I do not see any banner headlines ... - Believe in yourself says Sturg...
The saddest thing ever was that strong, ... - Miliband slammed for standing ...
I have been a member of the YouGov panel... - RBS leak 'extraordinary' says ...
I see that true to form our pals at BBC ... - New referendum poll confirms b...
Note that ICM are applying a weighting o... - RBS leak 'extraordinary' says ...
Doesn't Peston have form on this? Do I r... - RBS leak 'extraordinary' says ...
Two links to a couple of articles on the... - RBS leak 'extraordinary' says ...
The Nikkei would be open before the Lond...