General
Wednesday, 07 March 2012 00:20
141 Comments
By a Newsnet reporter
First Minister Alex Salmond has expressed his disappointment after UK Foreign Secretary William Hague refused to offer assistance in the aftermath of the tragic death of leading Scottish QC Paul McBride in Pakistan.
Speaking to STV news, Mr Salmond revealed that he had asked the UK Minister to help by contacting the UK High Commission to send someone to assist Mr McBride’s colleague Aamer Anwar in repatriating Mr McBride’s body back to Scotland.
“I asked specifically the Foreign Secretary if he would instruct the High Commission to send somebody from Lahore to Islamabad to help with this process.
“Clearly with the huge profile and attention, Aamer Anwar is under a great deal of pressure.
“Unfortunately the foreign Secretary couldn’t agree to that and I think that’s very disappointing.” said Mr Salmond.
Mr Anwar himself has accused the British authorities of failing to provide any assistance in order to help him deal with the situation.
He said he, along with the Scottish Government and police, had been trying to get the High Commission to send someone to Lahore to help him bring Mr McBride’s body back to Scotland.
Speaking from Lahore, Mr Anwar, who has been dealing with the aftermath of the tragedy described the behaviour of the Commission as a “disgrace”.
“The fact that they say that they don’t have capacity or resources to send somebody on a two hour journey to Lahore is an absolute disgrace.” He said.
Mr Anwar, who described Mr McBride as a friend who had “saved his life” has remained in Pakistan to help bring his friend’s body home.
Mr Anwar was in Pakistan with Mr McBride on a business trip when his colleague tragically died. Mr Anwar, himself a leading Human Rights lawyer, has complained that despite a plea for assistance, he has spoken to no-one from the Commission since the tragedy on Saturday.
The First Minister’s intervention came after Scottish Government Minister Fiona Hyslop contacted Mr Anwar offering assistance.
Mr Anwar said: “The Scottish Government, the First Minister, Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs Fiona Hyslop, Strathclyde Police and others have been trying their best to get the British High Commission to send someone to Lahore to help me bring Paul home.”
It is expected that Mr McBride’s body may be returned home by Friday.
Comments
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2012-03-07 00:35
The BBC made no mention of this problem, of Alex Salmond’s intervention and of Aamer Anwar’s problem with the British High Commission.
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2012-03-07 01:06
To set the record straight, yesterday at 16.20 hours I could hear the issue from Anwar himself on Radio Scotland, via a phone call.
[Edited by NNS mod team]
[Edited by NNS mod team]
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2012-03-07 09:05
That actually makes the lack of coverage by the BBC worse. If this situation has been brought to their attention by the interviewee in a live interview, BBC Scotland are normally all over it like a rash.
Why not this time ?
Why not this time ?
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2012-03-07 08:47
Quoting dogcollar:
Please inform date and time .. thank you
currently a protest outside the BBC is being planned i do hope you can attend
Please inform date and time .. thank you
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2012-03-07 10:18
Quoting dogcollar:
Awaiting date & time also
Thank You
currently a protest outside the BBC is being planned i do hope you can attend
Awaiting date & time also
Thank You
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2012-03-07 00:37
“….somebody on a two mile journey to Lahore…”
Editor, I think you’ll find that should read, two hour journey to Lahore.
[Thanks, corrected – NNS]
Editor, I think you’ll find that should read, two hour journey to Lahore.
[Thanks, corrected – NNS]
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2012-03-07 00:56
Under the circumstances, quibbling about Aamer Anwar’s estimate of the travel time seems rather distasteful.
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2012-03-07 13:49
It is immaterial whether it is 2 miles, 2 hours, or 3.5 hours.
It is also immaterial that is is a well-known figure who has deceased.
What we have is a British citizen who has died in a foreign country and assistance is required to expedite matters to repatriate him.
It seems quite clear cut to me.
I think most people will be appalled to learn that should they or a loved one die in a foreign country, nothing will be done to assist – even where there is taxpayer-funded British consular presence .
It is also immaterial that is is a well-known figure who has deceased.
What we have is a British citizen who has died in a foreign country and assistance is required to expedite matters to repatriate him.
It seems quite clear cut to me.
I think most people will be appalled to learn that should they or a loved one die in a foreign country, nothing will be done to assist – even where there is taxpayer-funded British consular presence .
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2012-03-07 00:45
“sneckedagain” – And you are surprised ?
Sorry for the facetiousness – I know you were only informing us all. I thought humourous hyperbole (?) (help : I am no english scholar) was the best way of drawing attention to your remark.
This is a tragedy. It is deeply regrettable that the Foreign Office were repeatedly unable to offer assistance.
I will say no more.
Sorry for the facetiousness – I know you were only informing us all. I thought humourous hyperbole (?) (help : I am no english scholar) was the best way of drawing attention to your remark.
This is a tragedy. It is deeply regrettable that the Foreign Office were repeatedly unable to offer assistance.
I will say no more.
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2012-03-07 01:15
So more hypocrisy from the Tories…
skynews.skypressoffice.co.uk/…/…
Quote:
www.politicalhook.co.uk/…/
Quote:
skynews.skypressoffice.co.uk/…/…
Quote:
WILLIAM HAGUE: Yes, of course, yes, that’s part of what our rapid deployment team do so there will be assistance available to them at the airport and a reception centre available for them in a Rome hotel. It is primarily of course the responsibility of the cruise liner to arrange flights for people back home but British Embassy staff, British consular staff will be around to assist people. The phone numbers for people to contact have been well advertised, if they need any assistance with travel documents for instance, that is often a problem in these cases, then we will of course give them that assistance so we are doing our utmost to look after everybody. They have been through a very dreadful and distressing experience so we’ll do all we can to look after them, that is our prime concern in a case like this, to make sure British nationals are safe and looked after.
www.politicalhook.co.uk/…/
Quote:
They have been through a very dreadful and distressing experience so we’ll do all we can to look after them, that is our prime concern in a case like this, to make sure British nationals are safe and looked after.
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2012-03-07 01:17
What was Hague’s problem then?
Surely there is no reason to withdraw basic (very) diplomatic assistance to this tragic event as that comes under the uk government and the various bodies related to foreign affairs?
Surely there is no reason to withdraw basic (very) diplomatic assistance to this tragic event as that comes under the uk government and the various bodies related to foreign affairs?
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2012-03-07 08:53
Quoting Kinghob:
Wrapped up in Iran and an attack on London.. Producing missiles with capability.. Cameron’s speach brings me back to Bliar and his 24hr squeal regards Iraq.. Yet again these despicable polititions have warheads on their shoulders….
Could an Independent Scotland fear reprisals.. No surely not.
What was Hague’s problem then?
Surely there is no reason to withdraw basic (very) diplomatic assistance to this tragic event as that comes under the uk government and the various bodies related to foreign affairs?
Wrapped up in Iran and an attack on London.. Producing missiles with capability.. Cameron’s speach brings me back to Bliar and his 24hr squeal regards Iraq.. Yet again these despicable polititions have warheads on their shoulders….
Could an Independent Scotland fear reprisals.. No surely not.
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2012-03-07 01:18
Why would the British High Commission refuse help? Is it an intended slight to Scotland?
It’s true. BBC Scotland did not mention it in their 6:30 pm news.
They were doing cartwheels and double back flips about the Prince Harry in Jamaica nonsense.
It’s true. BBC Scotland did not mention it in their 6:30 pm news.
They were doing cartwheels and double back flips about the Prince Harry in Jamaica nonsense.
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2012-03-07 09:40
Unfortunately the British embassy staff in many countries have been repeatedly criticised for their lack of support to UK nationals with difficulties overseas. There is a litany of issues raised, but no desire to do anything about it.
In an Independent Scotland, one would hope that Scottish consular staff understand that their first duty is to support and protect Scots in difficulties abroad.
In an Independent Scotland, one would hope that Scottish consular staff understand that their first duty is to support and protect Scots in difficulties abroad.
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2012-03-07 01:24
I wish the Scottish Government could just send a competent person from a delegation somewhere or even direct from Scotland and never mind the diplomatic incident. However, the measured tone of Salmond is as always a lesson to lesser men.
The Scottish people would appreciate this, after all this man had done for his fellow Scots.
What is wrong with the UK? It seems to have given up on everything.
The Scottish people would appreciate this, after all this man had done for his fellow Scots.
What is wrong with the UK? It seems to have given up on everything.
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2012-03-07 01:32
This sort of stuff is not unusual with British High Commissions. When I was in Nigeria we went to the Irish Consulate if we needed help or the Italian one. I saw a friend of mine locked up in jail in Nigeria on a charge of murder when he had been over three hundred miles away from the incident and all we got from the Brit Commission was the line “We do not interfere in the legal affairs of a friendly nation”
The Itlaian consul got him out
The Itlaian consul got him out
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2012-03-07 02:24
That is simply appalling! The justice system in African countries needs to be respected – but, UK consular services for UK citizens is a right. If the Italian Consulate could find reason to help, what was the bloody UK Consul doing?
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2012-03-07 12:48
Quoting Barontorc:
Agreed Barontorc. This case should be quoted to every unionist politician who parrots the nonsense mantra “Stronger together, weaker apart.”
Perhaps the Foreign Office Great Poobah, Hague, is just taking a leaf out of the Ian Davidson “Who cares?” book as applied to anything pertaining to Scotland or Scots.
That is simply appalling! The justice system in African countries needs to be respected – but, UK consular services for UK citizens is a right. If the Italian Consulate could find reason to help, what was the bloody UK Consul doing?
Agreed Barontorc. This case should be quoted to every unionist politician who parrots the nonsense mantra “Stronger together, weaker apart.”
Perhaps the Foreign Office Great Poobah, Hague, is just taking a leaf out of the Ian Davidson “Who cares?” book as applied to anything pertaining to Scotland or Scots.
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2012-03-07 05:38
I thought carrying a UK passport was in itself protection. Got that wrong, didn’t I? They certainly charge enough for the damn thing. Quicker we get Scottish ones, the better.
I guess the cruise ship and susequent help to aflicted british people was pretty high-profile and good PR for this disfunctional government. Not too many kudos for tories in one individual Scot.
I guess the cruise ship and susequent help to aflicted british people was pretty high-profile and good PR for this disfunctional government. Not too many kudos for tories in one individual Scot.
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2012-03-07 06:53
I met Paul McBride profesioally and found him to be a decent guy. His death in a far off country and the dismissive attitude of the foreign office shows clearly why Scotland should be independent and be able to care for its own people in an appropriate manner. With the UK diplomatic and embassy staff stuffed full of English public School boy toffs, its very unsurprising that they don’t really care about the death of one Scot in Pakistan
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2012-03-07 07:50
I would hope that an Englisman (post Independence)wh o was in trouble abroad would get the help needed from a Scottish Embassy if it was nearer to the incident.
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2012-03-07 08:35
What’s with the Daily Mail style headline? There’s a world of difference between disappointment and fury. Who was furious? The article doesn’t tell us. Is the idea that WE are meant to be furious? If so, please let us decide for ourselves whether we wish to be furious. Fury would perhaps be merited in this case, but please leave out the tabloid headlines. If someone has actually expressed fury, OK. But AS expressed disappointment.
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2012-03-07 10:13
I agree. There was no fury, raher disappointment. Other than that lapse, keep up the good work Newsnet!
I think the Scottish Government should send someone anyway, if still needed: who cares what the FCO and little Hague think.
I think the Scottish Government should send someone anyway, if still needed: who cares what the FCO and little Hague think.
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2012-03-07 13:56
Speaking from Lahore, Mr Anwar, who has been dealing with the aftermath of the tragedy described the behaviour of the Commission as a “disgrace”.
Anwar sounds pretty ‘furious’ to me.
Anwar sounds pretty ‘furious’ to me.
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2012-03-07 14:23
While I do agree with your general point, I think it is fair to describe Mr Anwar as furious.
He is a fairly passionate individual.
That said, perhaps it is better for NNS to let people come to their own conclusions especially as they themselves have stated they want the standard of comments to be raised on many occasions.
He is a fairly passionate individual.
That said, perhaps it is better for NNS to let people come to their own conclusions especially as they themselves have stated they want the standard of comments to be raised on many occasions.
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2012-03-07 08:57
Slightly o/t
A few years ago I was working in Oslo on business. I had my wallet and passport stolen (very unusual in Oslo) and after reporting it was directed to the British Embassy. I was offered cash from my Norwegian colleagues but declined due to feeling it was inappropriate and my belief I would get assistance from the Embassy.
The embassy told me they could get me an emergency passport but it would cost me about £120 payable up front – of course I had no money/credit cards so they refused to give me a loan or a passport. What they advised me to do was get a family member to send some money via Forex (a money broker). They gave me a one paragraph letter saying that I was a UK citizen and had had my passport stolen and could I be allowed back into Scotland. The Border staff in Oslo/Stavanger were okay about it but thought it very amusing.
I was left wondering what the hell we pay our taxes for. They were no help at all and I only got the crumb of assistance because I was able to name drop that I had dinner with the Ambassador 2 years previously.
A few years ago I was working in Oslo on business. I had my wallet and passport stolen (very unusual in Oslo) and after reporting it was directed to the British Embassy. I was offered cash from my Norwegian colleagues but declined due to feeling it was inappropriate and my belief I would get assistance from the Embassy.
The embassy told me they could get me an emergency passport but it would cost me about £120 payable up front – of course I had no money/credit cards so they refused to give me a loan or a passport. What they advised me to do was get a family member to send some money via Forex (a money broker). They gave me a one paragraph letter saying that I was a UK citizen and had had my passport stolen and could I be allowed back into Scotland. The Border staff in Oslo/Stavanger were okay about it but thought it very amusing.
I was left wondering what the hell we pay our taxes for. They were no help at all and I only got the crumb of assistance because I was able to name drop that I had dinner with the Ambassador 2 years previously.
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2012-03-07 13:01
They tried to charge 120 quid? Wow. My wife is a US citizen and had her handbag stolen in Amsterdam. The police were wonderful and the US Consulate issued her with a temporary passport free of charge, good for one year. I think she had to pay a small fee to renew it for the remainder of the time on the original passport.
There may be many things wrong with the USA but it does take care of its citizens abroad. Perhaps CMD can get a few lessons when he is over here next.
There may be many things wrong with the USA but it does take care of its citizens abroad. Perhaps CMD can get a few lessons when he is over here next.
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2012-03-07 13:17
Quoting Skip_NC:
Yes I had to pay – there was no chance they would give me a passport otherwise. Even when they confirmed I did have a valid UK passport they still wouldn’t replace it without the cash (of which I had none because everything had been stolen).
They tried to charge 120 quid? Wow. My wife is a US citizen and had her handbag stolen in Amsterdam. The police were wonderful and the US Consulate issued her with a temporary passport free of charge, good for one year. I think she had to pay a small fee to renew it for the remainder of the time on the original passport.
There may be many things wrong with the USA but it does take care of its citizens abroad. Perhaps CMD can get a few lessons when he is over here next.
Yes I had to pay – there was no chance they would give me a passport otherwise. Even when they confirmed I did have a valid UK passport they still wouldn’t replace it without the cash (of which I had none because everything had been stolen).
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2012-03-07 18:17
So, on the one hand, we have one country where cash is king, and where everyone is supposed to look out for themselves, which manages to help its citizens in their hour of need with basic services.
On the other hand, we have a country which has sought the moral high ground for several centuries and that country’s representatives in a foreign country cannot be bothered to get off their superannuated behinds and help a citizen at what must be a distressing time.
I am glad I have a US passport and let my UK one lapse.
On the other hand, we have a country which has sought the moral high ground for several centuries and that country’s representatives in a foreign country cannot be bothered to get off their superannuated behinds and help a citizen at what must be a distressing time.
I am glad I have a US passport and let my UK one lapse.
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2012-03-07 09:03
Clearly .. its a case that Scotland needs its own diplomatic corps our own embassies.
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2012-03-07 10:03
My condolences to Pauls family and friends.
Quote:
If you are honest you will find exactly the same headlines used in many stories in the Scottish media on a regular basis, when describing some myth or lies about the SNP and what they are supposed to have done/not done. NNS as usual has done an excellent job outlining once more the weakness we take from this union. It is the same weakness that sees us not properly represented in the EU. When unionist politicians crow about the “stronger together” myth of us being in the union. What they are really saying is that London is stronger using Scottish resources. That has now become very clear thanks to this site and the internet.
When I talk to people about Scottish politics and incidents like this, I do find that they are furious at the continued abuse and bigotry towards Scotland from London. So to use the word fury is in my humble opinion entirely appropriate. It sums up Scotland’s mood towards London and their anti Scottish bigotry.
Well done Newsnet Scotland, keep up the good work.
Quote:
Exile 2012-03-07 07:35
What’s with the Daily Mail style headline? There’s a world of difference between disappointment and fury. Who was furious? The article doesn’t tell us. Is the idea that WE are meant to be furious? If so, please let us decide for ourselves whether we wish to be furious. Fury would perhaps be merited in this case, but please leave out the tabloid headlines. If someone has actually expressed fury, OK. But AS expressed disappointment.
If you are honest you will find exactly the same headlines used in many stories in the Scottish media on a regular basis, when describing some myth or lies about the SNP and what they are supposed to have done/not done. NNS as usual has done an excellent job outlining once more the weakness we take from this union. It is the same weakness that sees us not properly represented in the EU. When unionist politicians crow about the “stronger together” myth of us being in the union. What they are really saying is that London is stronger using Scottish resources. That has now become very clear thanks to this site and the internet.
When I talk to people about Scottish politics and incidents like this, I do find that they are furious at the continued abuse and bigotry towards Scotland from London. So to use the word fury is in my humble opinion entirely appropriate. It sums up Scotland’s mood towards London and their anti Scottish bigotry.
Well done Newsnet Scotland, keep up the good work.
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2012-03-07 11:04
Quoting DonaldMhor:
Well said, DonaldMhor. Couldn,t agree more. Roll on independence.
My condolences to Pauls family and friends.
Quote:Exile 2012-03-07 07:35
What’s with the Daily Mail style headline? There’s a world of difference between disappointment and fury. Who was furious? The article doesn’t tell us. Is the idea that WE are meant to be furious? If so, please let us decide for ourselves whether we wish to be furious. Fury would perhaps be merited in this case, but please leave out the tabloid headlines. If someone has actually expressed fury, OK. But AS expressed disappointment.
If you are honest you will find exactly the same headlines used in many stories in the Scottish media on a regular basis, when describing some myth or lies about the SNP and what they are supposed to have done/not done. NNS as usual has done an excellent job outlining once more the weakness we take from this union. It is the same weakness that sees us not properly represented in the EU. When unionist politicians crow about the “stronger together” myth of us being in the union. What they are really saying is that London is stronger using Scottish resources. That has now become very clear thanks to this site and the internet.
When I talk to people about Scottish politics and incidents like this, I do find that they are furious at the continued abuse and bigotry towards Scotland from London. So to use the word fury is in my humble opinion entirely appropriate. It sums up Scotland’s mood towards London and their anti Scottish bigotry.
Well done Newsnet Scotland, keep up the good work.
Well said, DonaldMhor. Couldn,t agree more. Roll on independence.
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2012-03-07 13:49
Donald
I agree completely with what you say. And I’m glad if more people in Scotland are getting angry about their treatment. I just don’t see why the tabloid headline has been attached to this article. Reading the headline actually got my hopes up that there had maybe been a public expression of fury by someone. But no…
I agree completely with what you say. And I’m glad if more people in Scotland are getting angry about their treatment. I just don’t see why the tabloid headline has been attached to this article. Reading the headline actually got my hopes up that there had maybe been a public expression of fury by someone. But no…
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2012-03-07 10:10
Let’s just be clear – the story here is the disinterest of the Foreign Office and not the BBC. I got all my information on this story from BBC Radio Scotland yesterday including the comments from the First Minister. I’m one of the first to criticise if I think the BBC gets it wrong, but from my perspective at least, their radio coverage was clear and complete on this one.
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2012-03-07 10:20
Aye, that may be true but it never made the light of day in Reporting Scotland- I wonder why. STV on the other hand did cover the story in their 6 o’clock news with a video of the interview with the First Minister and a chance to hear some of Aamer Anwar’s comments.
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2012-03-07 11:07
I don’t know what was aired instead as I don’t watch TV, but perhaps it never aired on TV because it wasn’t deemed that important? A tragedy for friends and family of course, but of limited relevance surely to the rest of us.
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2012-03-07 11:18
This guy is such a great loss because he was a potential top-level Scottish leader, there’s not many born in each generation. So I think it’s quite relevant to Scottish society, Blanco.
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2012-03-07 11:21
I was not aware he was touted as a top level leader. I thought he was just a lawyer.
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2012-03-07 10:32
It doesn’t look as we are stronger together after all, does it?
This would have been a good time for the london government to show us how we matter.
This would have been a good time for the london government to show us how we matter.
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2012-03-07 10:32
This could be seen as yet another variant on the too poor, too stupid, too wee narrative – see what happens if you had to fend for yourself …. nyah!
This is the poor service we have our pocket money docked to pay for – I suggest we could do a lot better for Scottish nationals if we kept our donation to the FO and did it ourselves.
Stronger together? – pull the other one.
This is the poor service we have our pocket money docked to pay for – I suggest we could do a lot better for Scottish nationals if we kept our donation to the FO and did it ourselves.
Stronger together? – pull the other one.
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2012-03-07 11:15
I’m not only furious, I’m insulted.
Insulted that this situation has occured.
In fact, the UK government has insulted everyone in Scotland.
Insulted that this situation has occured.
In fact, the UK government has insulted everyone in Scotland.
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2012-03-07 11:19
I’ve got to say the headline and the first line are not the same.
Headline ‘Fury at”
First line “expressed disappointment’
Sorry but whomever said about the tabloid headlines has got it spot on. Please reconsider the tabloid bit at the top, we don’t need it and it belittles your otherwise excellent articles.
Headline ‘Fury at”
First line “expressed disappointment’
Sorry but whomever said about the tabloid headlines has got it spot on. Please reconsider the tabloid bit at the top, we don’t need it and it belittles your otherwise excellent articles.
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2012-03-07 11:21
Yes – with Devo Max, we’d still have WMD in Scotland and the FO to support us in Pakistan. It has to be Independence, nothing less !
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2012-03-07 11:21
If Paul had been a “Sir” you can imagine the stops would have been pulled out. Some republican friends say all this should make us think about the inherent value system of countries based on a monarchy, from the “top down”.
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2012-03-07 11:24
There was a British film, I think in the 1950s called “Carlton-Browne of the F.O.”, which was a comedy showing the utter incompetence of British diplomats abroad. Well, it seems they are still around, except in this case it,s no laughing matter. It must be difficult enough for the family and friends of Paul McBride to come to terms with his sudden death, without having the added strain of having to cope with the apparent reluctance of the British High Commission to assist. And, frankly, the Pakistani authorities, too readily for my mind, statement that “there are no suspicious circumstances” surrounding Paul,s death, without waiting for the results of toxicology tests, seem to suggest they want rid of what they see as a problem as quickly as possible. I think if this had happened in the U.K, it would have been treated as an unexplained death, and the room where he was found preserved as a crime scene, at least until it was proved nothing untoward took place. This type of botched investigation will merely add to future conspiracy theories if his death isn,t properly explained, leading to further anguish for his family.
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2012-03-08 12:17
Quoting alexb:
The FO, where else would those toffs go who couldn’t pass their qually
There was a British film, I think in the 1950s called “Carlton-Browne of the F.O.”, which was a comedy showing the utter incompetence of British diplomats abroad. Well, it seems they are still around, except in this case it,s no laughing matter. It must be difficult enough for the family and friends of Paul McBride to come to terms with his sudden death, without having the added strain of having to cope with the apparent reluctance of the British High Commission to assist. And, frankly, the Pakistani authorities, too readily for my mind, statement that “there are no suspicious circumstances” surrounding Paul,s death, without waiting for the results of toxicology tests, seem to suggest they want rid of what they see as a problem as quickly as possible. I think if this had happened in the U.K, it would have been treated as an unexplained death, and the room where he was found preserved as a crime scene, at least until it was proved nothing untoward took place. This type of botched investigation will merely add to future conspiracy theories if his death isn,t properly explained, leading to further anguish for his family.
The FO, where else would those toffs go who couldn’t pass their qually
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2012-03-07 11:38
What exactly do you guys think should have happened ? Your efforts at trying to make some political capital out of the tragic death of Paul McBryde are despicable.
He died in a foreign country and it is the authoroties of that country who decide what will happen and when, in circumstances such as this.The British High Commission has no right to interfere in the jurisdiction of Pakistan. Once all the protocols have been completed,the body will be released for repatriation,ju st like any other tragic case.I understand this is now in progress.
Any attempts to try and turn this very sad incident into a slight on the Scottish people and use it as a “plus point” for independence are,in my opinion,derisor y.
He died in a foreign country and it is the authoroties of that country who decide what will happen and when, in circumstances such as this.The British High Commission has no right to interfere in the jurisdiction of Pakistan. Once all the protocols have been completed,the body will be released for repatriation,ju st like any other tragic case.I understand this is now in progress.
Any attempts to try and turn this very sad incident into a slight on the Scottish people and use it as a “plus point” for independence are,in my opinion,derisor y.
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2012-03-07 11:41
Quoting Somerled:
direct.gov.uk/…/DG_10029476
“The British Consul will support you by offering practical advice and help with funeral arrangements and other formalities such as inquests”
“If you wish to bring the body back to the UK, British Consular staff will help by putting you in touch with an international funeral director.”
What exactly do you guys think should have happened ?
direct.gov.uk/…/DG_10029476
“The British Consul will support you by offering practical advice and help with funeral arrangements and other formalities such as inquests”
“If you wish to bring the body back to the UK, British Consular staff will help by putting you in touch with an international funeral director.”
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2012-03-07 11:56
Which is exactly what would have happened in any other case,if the individual concerened had been English,Welsh or Northern Irish.
What makes me so angry about this is the attempt to try and make political capital and cause division where none existed. Did Alex Salmond have a request from the McBride family to contact William Hague ? Has any one asked them if they feel let down in any way ? They are too distraught to think about such matters as petty politics.
What makes me so angry about this is the attempt to try and make political capital and cause division where none existed. Did Alex Salmond have a request from the McBride family to contact William Hague ? Has any one asked them if they feel let down in any way ? They are too distraught to think about such matters as petty politics.
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2012-03-07 12:12
Quoting Somerled:
If you read the article, it appears the Scottish Government offered to help Anwar, who’s the man on the ground trying to deal with this. Apparently “The Scottish Government, the First Minister, Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs Fiona Hyslop, Strathclyde Police and others have been trying their best to get the British High Commission to send someone to Lahore to help me bring Paul home”.
Did Alex Salmond have a request from the McBride family to contact William Hague ?
If you read the article, it appears the Scottish Government offered to help Anwar, who’s the man on the ground trying to deal with this. Apparently “The Scottish Government, the First Minister, Cabinet Secretary for Foreign Affairs Fiona Hyslop, Strathclyde Police and others have been trying their best to get the British High Commission to send someone to Lahore to help me bring Paul home”.
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2012-03-07 12:24
I’m sure they all have. Nobody here has the right to do anything untill the Pakistani authorities have carried out their inquiries and released the body. To suggest that a Scot has been picked out for unusual treatment is frankly laughable and unworthy.
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2012-03-07 12:51
Nobody here has the right to do anything untill the Pakistani authorities have carried out their inquiries and released the body.
Nonsense. They can offer practical advice and help without waiting for the Pakistani authorities to release the body.
Nonsense. They can offer practical advice and help without waiting for the Pakistani authorities to release the body.
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2012-03-07 13:37
Anwar specifically expressed anger and distress, and after all, he should know what to expect due to his origins and his experience as a lawyer.
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2012-03-07 13:52
That does not answer the question; Did Salmond show respect to the McBride family and ask their opinion on the situation ?
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2012-03-07 13:55
“Which is exactly what would have happened in any other case,if the individual concerened had been English,Welsh or Northern Irish.”
But it DIDN’T happen in this case. That is precisely the point, duh.
But it DIDN’T happen in this case. That is precisely the point, duh.
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2012-03-07 11:59
Yip, Jiggs.., it sure doesn’t do what it says on the tin. I know of a London based Scot who was mugged and hospitalised in Accra. He was left with no passport, credit cards, cash, travel insurance details and was thereby virtually held in Accra by the debt accumulated by the hospitalisation and later hotel bills. The UK Consulate refused to assist him, the reasons for which I do not know – but he was dependent on his aged mother in London to arrange funds to an address in Accra to repatriate himself.
Why did the UK Gov person not do the needy to get him home and be repaid from then on, indeed plus costs if attributable for what ever reason?
Is there a “Sir” service and a “pleb” service operating as suggested elsewhere?
Why did the UK Gov person not do the needy to get him home and be repaid from then on, indeed plus costs if attributable for what ever reason?
Is there a “Sir” service and a “pleb” service operating as suggested elsewhere?
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2012-03-07 12:13
“A London based Scot” Really, are you saying that as soon as they found out he was actually a Scot and not a Londoner they refused to help ? That is taking your percecution complex to a higher level.
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2012-03-07 12:24
You clearly have no idea of the workings and procedures that ANY British Embassy or High Commission or Consulate is supposed to undertake to assist UK nationals.
It is the responsabilty of the Embassy/Commission/Consulate to provide aid and assistance to British nationals that request it, when they find themselves in a situation that clearly requires assistance. The assy/Commission/Consulate is the ‘local knowledge’ on the ground, they are familiar with local law and procedures overseas. Its not interfering in a foreign country, its providing the proper liason, which they are supposed to provide to any UK national. After all we pay through all our taxes for this service. But its more and more apparent that some locations, feel that its there only task to hold receptions and just be present and are not apparently aware of their obligations, regardless of where the UK national comes from
It is the responsabilty of the Embassy/Commission/Consulate to provide aid and assistance to British nationals that request it, when they find themselves in a situation that clearly requires assistance. The assy/Commission/Consulate is the ‘local knowledge’ on the ground, they are familiar with local law and procedures overseas. Its not interfering in a foreign country, its providing the proper liason, which they are supposed to provide to any UK national. After all we pay through all our taxes for this service. But its more and more apparent that some locations, feel that its there only task to hold receptions and just be present and are not apparently aware of their obligations, regardless of where the UK national comes from
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2012-03-07 13:03
No Somerled, he just happens to be a Scot who has lived in London for yonks. Get off your high horse and read the context, not nit-pick as is your usual.
UK is, as far as I’m concerned UK – it’s what it says on the tin – So if you’ve a comment to make stick to the point and context of the item. Piss or get off the pot!
UK is, as far as I’m concerned UK – it’s what it says on the tin – So if you’ve a comment to make stick to the point and context of the item. Piss or get off the pot!
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2012-03-07 13:50
Barontorc:
If you are saying that no British Commission or Embassy gives proper support and help to any British Citizen that is fine. I do not have a problem with that as an argument. However the general thrust of this article is that insufficient help was given because the principals involved are Scottish.That is clearly not the case.Is that not why you mentioned your friend was ” a London based Scot ? Why did you not just say “he was London based” ?
Foreign Office matters are reserved issues and surely the correct procedure would have been for the McBride family’s M.P. to have been contacted first to look into the situation.
The tragic death of good man has been turned into a matter of politics. Despicable.
If you are saying that no British Commission or Embassy gives proper support and help to any British Citizen that is fine. I do not have a problem with that as an argument. However the general thrust of this article is that insufficient help was given because the principals involved are Scottish.That is clearly not the case.Is that not why you mentioned your friend was ” a London based Scot ? Why did you not just say “he was London based” ?
Foreign Office matters are reserved issues and surely the correct procedure would have been for the McBride family’s M.P. to have been contacted first to look into the situation.
The tragic death of good man has been turned into a matter of politics. Despicable.
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2012-03-07 14:30
i think whats despicable is your tone Somerled.
In reading the article I see such words as ‘help’ and ‘assist’. AS describes the lack of help as ‘disappointing’. To describe as ‘disappointing’ in political language is rather tame.
This is nowhere near the aggressive language you use in your mock outrage: ‘Despicable’, ‘persecution complex’, ‘frankly laughable’, ‘interfere’, ‘derisory’ – all of which show a remarkable lack of modesty on your behalf towards the situation.
The offering of help or assistance seems only to be a kind hearted thing to do under the circumstances, and I am sure that whatever help the McBride family can get, they would appreciate, although of course, I cannot speak for them nor do i know if any conversation has taken place between them and the Scottish Government.
But for a government to offer in helping to repatriate one of it’s sons who has dies on foreign soil is the right thing to do.
If you regard that as interfering in the sovereignty of Pakistan, then thats your choice. I doubt many would agree with you.
Oh, and if you are correct, I’d love to see the press article from Pakistani authorities supporting your claims of ‘ interference’
Maybe you can supply us with a link to that ?
In reading the article I see such words as ‘help’ and ‘assist’. AS describes the lack of help as ‘disappointing’. To describe as ‘disappointing’ in political language is rather tame.
This is nowhere near the aggressive language you use in your mock outrage: ‘Despicable’, ‘persecution complex’, ‘frankly laughable’, ‘interfere’, ‘derisory’ – all of which show a remarkable lack of modesty on your behalf towards the situation.
The offering of help or assistance seems only to be a kind hearted thing to do under the circumstances, and I am sure that whatever help the McBride family can get, they would appreciate, although of course, I cannot speak for them nor do i know if any conversation has taken place between them and the Scottish Government.
But for a government to offer in helping to repatriate one of it’s sons who has dies on foreign soil is the right thing to do.
If you regard that as interfering in the sovereignty of Pakistan, then thats your choice. I doubt many would agree with you.
Oh, and if you are correct, I’d love to see the press article from Pakistani authorities supporting your claims of ‘ interference’
Maybe you can supply us with a link to that ?
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2012-03-07 15:12
If anything, Somerled, emphasis has been placed on his Scottish origin, partly due to nationalist sentiments, but mostly I think to draw attention to the helpless position our First Minister is in if there are problems abroad and a lack of response from the UK government who have exclusive powers in this reserved area.
That is a very political issue and has to be addressed. Perhaps better later than now, but the issue is not “being politicised” in that sense, at least that is my perception.
The other issue being that this high-profile figure has just left membership of the Conservative party, making some very damning comments about the Scottish party. This is also a political aspect, and not one sought by the people commenting here.
That is a very political issue and has to be addressed. Perhaps better later than now, but the issue is not “being politicised” in that sense, at least that is my perception.
The other issue being that this high-profile figure has just left membership of the Conservative party, making some very damning comments about the Scottish party. This is also a political aspect, and not one sought by the people commenting here.
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2012-03-07 15:32
Thanks,Marga B
The First Minister was not in a “helpless position”. The control of British High Commissions is the responsability of the U.K. Government.Some posters here were undoubtedly implying that there was not sufficient help being offered because the principals involved were from Scotland. Surely the proper course of action was for the M.P. for the McBride family to be contacted to help to resolve any problems, if indeed there were any and to wait until the Pakistani authorities had finished their inquiries.Then and only then,if there were still problems the Prime Minister should have become involved and not Alex Salmond. What really infuriated me was the implication by some posters here that they could use the tragic death of a good man to further their cause for independence. The two things are not related in any way.
The First Minister was not in a “helpless position”. The control of British High Commissions is the responsability of the U.K. Government.Some posters here were undoubtedly implying that there was not sufficient help being offered because the principals involved were from Scotland. Surely the proper course of action was for the M.P. for the McBride family to be contacted to help to resolve any problems, if indeed there were any and to wait until the Pakistani authorities had finished their inquiries.Then and only then,if there were still problems the Prime Minister should have become involved and not Alex Salmond. What really infuriated me was the implication by some posters here that they could use the tragic death of a good man to further their cause for independence. The two things are not related in any way.
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2012-03-07 17:26
Somerled – your implications are a million miles off-target and don’t misquote me again for a cheap jibe. I think you’ve said enough on this subject to show where you’re coming from. It’s you who is politicising this issue. Spare me your mock symathy and tears – your at it!
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2012-03-07 18:00
Quoting Somerled:
Neither McBride’s MP nor the PM should need to be involved; this is a F&CO; matter and anyone concerned about their (in)actions has a right to raise their concerns directly with them. Nor would consular assistance have to wait for the Pakistanis to finish whatever it is you imagine they haven’t yet finished: it could, and should, have been offered immediately there were contacted.
Surely the proper course of action was for the M.P. for the McBride family to be contacted to help to resolve any problems, if indeed there were any and to wait until the Pakistani authorities had finished their inquiries.Then and only then,if there were still problems the Prime Minister should have become involved
Neither McBride’s MP nor the PM should need to be involved; this is a F&CO; matter and anyone concerned about their (in)actions has a right to raise their concerns directly with them. Nor would consular assistance have to wait for the Pakistanis to finish whatever it is you imagine they haven’t yet finished: it could, and should, have been offered immediately there were contacted.
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2012-03-07 11:46
But this is the very point. Anwar has said that he has asked for assistance IN REPATRIATION of the body and heard nothing back. Nobody here, nor Anwar, have asked for interference in the jurisdiction of Pakistan.
The situation illustrates the ‘them and us’ situation that appears to exist in the Foreign Office and its operations. Firstly we discover that Scottish industries have to pay handsomely for help in promoting themselves abroad, while non-Scottish UK industries pay nothing.
Now we hear that a Scot who is abroad dealing with the situation of the death of his friend, another Scot, is left to deal with it himself.
I wonder what Paul himself would think of this? No doubt he’d be criticising it as strongly as anyone, which is sadly ironic given that he was seemingly in favour of the union and the ‘benefits’ it brings us. But he seemed to have no problem with changing from Labour to the Conservatives, so perhaps he would have converted at some point.
Sadly it’s too late for him.
BTW: I agree with the comments above about the “fury” vs “disappointment”. It is tabloidism and isn’t welcome.
The situation illustrates the ‘them and us’ situation that appears to exist in the Foreign Office and its operations. Firstly we discover that Scottish industries have to pay handsomely for help in promoting themselves abroad, while non-Scottish UK industries pay nothing.
Now we hear that a Scot who is abroad dealing with the situation of the death of his friend, another Scot, is left to deal with it himself.
I wonder what Paul himself would think of this? No doubt he’d be criticising it as strongly as anyone, which is sadly ironic given that he was seemingly in favour of the union and the ‘benefits’ it brings us. But he seemed to have no problem with changing from Labour to the Conservatives, so perhaps he would have converted at some point.
Sadly it’s too late for him.
BTW: I agree with the comments above about the “fury” vs “disappointment”. It is tabloidism and isn’t welcome.
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2012-03-07 13:36
Somerled, I honestly think people are not doing that – people have said what they think should have happened, especially re. investigation of death. This was an internationally known human rights lawyer and a high-flyer and as you probably know had recently received death threats (suspects are currently being tried for the offence).
I don’t think that anyone working in these high-profile and risky fields with known death threats issued can be considered just “any case” and their deaths treated as “accidental”.
I don’t think that anyone working in these high-profile and risky fields with known death threats issued can be considered just “any case” and their deaths treated as “accidental”.
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2012-03-07 11:39
Is it possible that the UK Government would see Paul McBride and Aamer Anwar as enemies of the british state as they are:
Scottish
Supportive of human rights
Scottish
Supportive of human rights
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2012-03-07 12:06
Quoting fairliered:
That,s exactly one of the thrusts of my post, although I didn,t want to be so blunt. “Nothing to do with us , mate”, say the U.K Government.
Is it possible that the UK Government would see Paul McBride and Aamer Anwar as enemies of the british state as they are:
Scottish
Supportive of human rights
That,s exactly one of the thrusts of my post, although I didn,t want to be so blunt. “Nothing to do with us , mate”, say the U.K Government.
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2012-03-07 13:29
It seems that the Westminster government has already divorced separated themselves from Scotland and not just on this issue.
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2012-03-07 12:09
Given the number of people living in Britain with connections in Pakistan plus the long time imperial interest, I would imagine that the High Commissioners staff doesn’t just consist of a couple of clerks, a fan and a charwallah.
Aamer Anwar is a lawyer and presumably speaks the language, any British “subject” without these advantages could find himself in this nightmare situation.
“Her Britanic Majesty’s Secretary of State requests and requires, in the name of Her Majesty, all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance, and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary”.
Says it on the tin!
Aamer Anwar is a lawyer and presumably speaks the language, any British “subject” without these advantages could find himself in this nightmare situation.
“Her Britanic Majesty’s Secretary of State requests and requires, in the name of Her Majesty, all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance, and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary”.
Says it on the tin!
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2012-03-07 12:27
Its bad enough that the High commission in question does not want to assist as they should be doing, but its far worse that the Foreign Secretary William Hague is not getting himself involved in a matter that is his responsabilty, which is to make sure that ANY Embassy or High Commission does provide aid and assistance when requested
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2012-03-07 12:30
The late and greatly respected Paul McBride QC on the Conservative & Unionist Party:
“a bunch of unreconstructed morons”
“The Scottish Tories are no friends of the people of Scotland.
The MSP group is divided and dysfunctional. Their only policy is to oppose everything and contribute nothing.
Half the membership wants the party abolished and 87% of the electorate despise them.
Their naked opportunism regarding the minimum pricing bill and the offensive behaviour bill demonstrates why they will remain unelectable.
Nothing suggests they have the insight to change and I want nothing to do with them.”
bbc.co.uk/…/…
Never a truer word spoken.
RIP. My sympathy to family and friends.
“a bunch of unreconstructed morons”
“The Scottish Tories are no friends of the people of Scotland.
The MSP group is divided and dysfunctional. Their only policy is to oppose everything and contribute nothing.
Half the membership wants the party abolished and 87% of the electorate despise them.
Their naked opportunism regarding the minimum pricing bill and the offensive behaviour bill demonstrates why they will remain unelectable.
Nothing suggests they have the insight to change and I want nothing to do with them.”
bbc.co.uk/…/…
Never a truer word spoken.
RIP. My sympathy to family and friends.
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2012-03-07 12:36
Perhaps the British Government want to delay as long as possible before a Scottish autopsy might be carried out.
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2012-03-07 12:38
With the utmost respect and O/T I have just listened to BBC World that 6 British Soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan. If this report is correct may I say God bless their souls and I am truly sad that these people have lost their lives and my sincere condolonces to their family and friends. May I also wish that we never, never, have our magnificient militiary personnel exposed in future conflicts.
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2012-03-07 16:29
Thery are going to a huge extent to persuade us (the public) that this venture is worthwhile when it is pretty obvious that the country will revert to where it was before we became embroiled.
I heard someone say today how stupid the authorities were to announce the withdrawal dates from Afghanistan.
I heard someone say today how stupid the authorities were to announce the withdrawal dates from Afghanistan.
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2012-03-07 12:41
From the page of the British High commission in Islamabad :
‘The Consular Sections of the British High Commission Islamabad and the British Deputy High Commission Karachi are there to help British nationals in trouble in Pakistan’
ukinpakistan.fco.gov.uk/…/…
The following is an interesting read for a couple of reasons to start with.
fco.gov.uk/…/…
Its obvious from a breif read through some of the tasks that the High Commission is supposed to provide have been ignored by the High Commission
‘The Consular Sections of the British High Commission Islamabad and the British Deputy High Commission Karachi are there to help British nationals in trouble in Pakistan’
ukinpakistan.fco.gov.uk/…/…
The following is an interesting read for a couple of reasons to start with.
fco.gov.uk/…/…
Its obvious from a breif read through some of the tasks that the High Commission is supposed to provide have been ignored by the High Commission
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2012-03-07 12:45
On the topic of distance between Lahore and Islamabad, its linked by the M2 Motorway and is 228 miles
There is also an Honorary Consol in Kahore
There is also an Honorary Consol in Kahore
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2012-03-07 12:48
I know this is very off topic but i am interested in the comments of a trade unionist who stated: “Many people think Scotland doesn’t have the capacity to produce the steel for that bridge.
“But there are steel plants in Scotland which are more productive than ever. The Tata plant at Dalzell still has the capacity and the capability to produce at least a third of the steel required for the new bridge”.
Is this true? are there are any plants in Scotland that can produce the type of steel required in the construction of the new bridge?
“But there are steel plants in Scotland which are more productive than ever. The Tata plant at Dalzell still has the capacity and the capability to produce at least a third of the steel required for the new bridge”.
Is this true? are there are any plants in Scotland that can produce the type of steel required in the construction of the new bridge?
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2012-03-07 13:25
If it is going to be a big experiment in making new types of steel product just to satisfy this project it is not worth the risk. We will finish up having another trams disaster, damaging the reputation of Scotland once again.
Is this just hot air by the unions, or is their view supported by the management at Dalzell?
Is this just hot air by the unions, or is their view supported by the management at Dalzell?
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2012-03-07 13:43
Tata have recently had a personal interview with Scottish ministers so I don’t see where this TU man is coming from. If it was true Tata would be screaming it from the rooftops, surely.
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2012-03-07 13:37
Whether or not there are any which could do the work, no Scottish plant submitted a bid to supply the steel.
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2012-03-07 14:15
Exactly Holebender – not one Scottish based bid for this contract ? Maybe the union official would like to explain that ?
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2012-03-07 14:57
In a word no, there are no plants in Scotland that can produce the type and quantity required.
The unions and some media talk about in vague terms of ‘two large steel plants in Scotland’
The reality is there is as far as I know, only one, that the Tata Steel Group plate mill at Dalzell
tatasteeleurope.com/…/…
Tata also have a plant at Clydbridge, Cambuslang, but that is for tempering and cutting steel that manufactured elswhere
tatasteeleurope.com/…/…
The unions and some media talk about in vague terms of ‘two large steel plants in Scotland’
The reality is there is as far as I know, only one, that the Tata Steel Group plate mill at Dalzell
tatasteeleurope.com/…/…
Tata also have a plant at Clydbridge, Cambuslang, but that is for tempering and cutting steel that manufactured elswhere
tatasteeleurope.com/…/…
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2012-03-07 15:35
Quoting bipod:
Could someone explain to the trade unionist that Tata don’t want to produce the steel and that he’d be better taking the matter up with them than with the media?
“The Tata plant at Dalzell still has the capacity and the capability to produce at least a third of the steel required for the new bridge”
Could someone explain to the trade unionist that Tata don’t want to produce the steel and that he’d be better taking the matter up with them than with the media?
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2012-03-07 14:21
We are told that the vast network of UK embassies and consulates across the globe is one of the ‘benefits of the union’. Yet when someone is in need of their assistance none is forthcoming. Now, I can’t say for sure whether this is because Paul was and Aamer is Scottish or whether this shoddy treatment would happen to any private UK citizen. Either way it gives the lie that the diplomatic presence across the globe is of any kind of benefit, other than the ‘benefit’ of having to pay for it.
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2012-03-07 14:27
O/T Labour backbenchers (Central Ayrshire MP) cosying up to CMD on the subject of “separatists” and the supposed damging effect on investment due to the “delay” ofthe independence referendum.
However more cringeworthy was the daily politics with Jim Murphy. They ran a piece on shipbuilding, with the leader of Portsmouth council advocating his case for his local yard. Namely, that Portsmouth should be kept open until we Scots vote to become independent, or not.
More disturbingly he also advocated all orders from Westminster should not go to Clyde yards until the decision has been made.
Now, Stuart Maxwell SNP MSP was on vid link to state Scotland’s case or shipbuilding but was heckled constantly by Murphy. Mr Neil also added his tuppence by stating it would be incoceivable that the Royal Navy would let a ship be built in a foreign country.
A few points:
1. Could the BBC and the populace at large understand that England does note equal the UK; if we become independent then the UK ceases to exist, so could the BBC stop conflating the two.
2. Perfectly correct that no ‘grey’ ship has been built outside of the UK. However, if Scotland were independent and England required a ship built; and should Portsmouth have in fact closed then would Westminster spite themselves by not chosing Clyde yards if they were the most competitive economically?
3. Stuart Maxwell didn’t cover hismlef in glory despite Jim’s heckling. Hawd yer wesiht Jim, I’m talkin! He had points to make but either didn’t make them effectively or at all.
4. BAE systems could care less about borders, they will close/keep yards on an economic basis, not due to whichever governments agenda. If that means Portsmouth closes then Westmisnter will have to find another location to build their ‘grey’ ships, it is simply disingenuous to suggest that Westmisnter is the ultimate arbiter in this. Yes they can choose where their ships are built, but not which yards stay open, that’s BAE’s choice.
Also, on Scotland tonight a few nights ago on a discussion about EU membership, Lord Kerr whom I had praised on a debate in the HOL Re the Scotland Bill then spouted some guff about Scotland and the EU and allowed to do so unchallenged. The main failing again was that it was based on the supposition of England remaining the ‘UK’ and Scotland being designated as a new state and all that entailed. Why on earth do they not get that the UK will cease to exist, we will both be in the same position, the rest of the UK (or EWNI as someone else suggested) would also become a new state too. Therefore we would be treated the same.
I fear that the amount of erroneous assertions and discussion about a good number of issues will result in some of it sticking and end up in a disappointing result come the referendum.
The unionists don’t need to be positive, they only need to obfuscate enough to make people fear change for whatever reason and carry on regardless. Even those unionists that genuinely belive that we are better off in the union are so low on self-confidence Re Scotland as a nation as to be pitiable.
Redistributive union is code for too wee too poor again; whereas it probably does have truth behind the statement in that they are ‘redistibuting’ our natural resources away from here.
Time to shake Scotland up, negate the dependence culture and mindset and strive to do things for oursleves, the Star Trek Scotty attitude must stop!
However more cringeworthy was the daily politics with Jim Murphy. They ran a piece on shipbuilding, with the leader of Portsmouth council advocating his case for his local yard. Namely, that Portsmouth should be kept open until we Scots vote to become independent, or not.
More disturbingly he also advocated all orders from Westminster should not go to Clyde yards until the decision has been made.
Now, Stuart Maxwell SNP MSP was on vid link to state Scotland’s case or shipbuilding but was heckled constantly by Murphy. Mr Neil also added his tuppence by stating it would be incoceivable that the Royal Navy would let a ship be built in a foreign country.
A few points:
1. Could the BBC and the populace at large understand that England does note equal the UK; if we become independent then the UK ceases to exist, so could the BBC stop conflating the two.
2. Perfectly correct that no ‘grey’ ship has been built outside of the UK. However, if Scotland were independent and England required a ship built; and should Portsmouth have in fact closed then would Westminster spite themselves by not chosing Clyde yards if they were the most competitive economically?
3. Stuart Maxwell didn’t cover hismlef in glory despite Jim’s heckling. Hawd yer wesiht Jim, I’m talkin! He had points to make but either didn’t make them effectively or at all.
4. BAE systems could care less about borders, they will close/keep yards on an economic basis, not due to whichever governments agenda. If that means Portsmouth closes then Westmisnter will have to find another location to build their ‘grey’ ships, it is simply disingenuous to suggest that Westmisnter is the ultimate arbiter in this. Yes they can choose where their ships are built, but not which yards stay open, that’s BAE’s choice.
Also, on Scotland tonight a few nights ago on a discussion about EU membership, Lord Kerr whom I had praised on a debate in the HOL Re the Scotland Bill then spouted some guff about Scotland and the EU and allowed to do so unchallenged. The main failing again was that it was based on the supposition of England remaining the ‘UK’ and Scotland being designated as a new state and all that entailed. Why on earth do they not get that the UK will cease to exist, we will both be in the same position, the rest of the UK (or EWNI as someone else suggested) would also become a new state too. Therefore we would be treated the same.
I fear that the amount of erroneous assertions and discussion about a good number of issues will result in some of it sticking and end up in a disappointing result come the referendum.
The unionists don’t need to be positive, they only need to obfuscate enough to make people fear change for whatever reason and carry on regardless. Even those unionists that genuinely belive that we are better off in the union are so low on self-confidence Re Scotland as a nation as to be pitiable.
Redistributive union is code for too wee too poor again; whereas it probably does have truth behind the statement in that they are ‘redistibuting’ our natural resources away from here.
Time to shake Scotland up, negate the dependence culture and mindset and strive to do things for oursleves, the Star Trek Scotty attitude must stop!
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2012-03-07 15:04
On the point of EU membership the EU released a statement. Following independence Scotland and England would be viewed equally.
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2012-03-07 15:06
And yet this didn’t stop he entire supposition discussion on STV’s Scotland tonight as if that were not the case.
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2012-03-07 15:36
There are 19 warships in the Royal Navy,there are upwards of 60 RFA and associated Naval Vessels that can be built anywhere in the World,there are 3 yards that BAE Systems own,2 of which are on the Clyde,the other is a small yard at Portsmouth.
Other countries may choose to have their Warships built on the Clyde,already another Navy has had Warships built in Portsmouth portsmouth.co.uk/…/… The Royal Navy is not the be all and end all of Shipbuilding on the Clyde,it just suits the scaremongerers to suggest it is.
Other countries may choose to have their Warships built on the Clyde,already another Navy has had Warships built in Portsmouth portsmouth.co.uk/…/… The Royal Navy is not the be all and end all of Shipbuilding on the Clyde,it just suits the scaremongerers to suggest it is.
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2012-03-07 18:42
Quote:
I am sick and tired of the weak insipid replies to these unionist bigots by the likes of Maxwell and Hosie who try and keep this polite diplomatic demeanour. You cannot do this any more, it is time to start attacking these bigots and return fire with fire. The likes of Murphy needs to be played at his own game and shout him down. His mannerisms and putting out his hand and laying his hand on the Torys arm when he was trying to make a point, show him up as very weak on debate and high on the bully factor like Davidson, and the head man Joyce. If I were the Tory chappy I would have told him to keep his bloody hands to himself.
Murphy lied through his teeth when he said that the yards were only open because of the Royal Navy and Maxwell should have nailed him on that. The yards are still there because of Jimmy Reid and the workers who fought Ted Heath in to a corner, and forced him to U turn. Otherwise only Ferguson’s would have been left in Port Glasgow. That was Jimmy Reids legacy for Scotland.
A very poor performance from Maxwell. The SNP need to man up and meet this tide of propaganda that is now washing over us and will become a Tsunami by 2014. The media have shown us that they are going to let the Unionist bigots say what they want, lies and myths are going to be the Unionists argument for the Union, being backed up by the BBC and the MSM. The SNP need to get a grip.
# ScotInNotts 2012-03-07 13:27
O/T Labour backbenchers (Central Ayrshire MP) cosying up to CMD on the subject of “separatists” and the supposed damging effect on investment due to the “delay” ofthe independence referendum.
However more cringeworthy was the daily politics with Jim Murphy. They ran a piece on shipbuilding, with the leader of Portsmouth council advocating his case for his local yard. Namely, that Portsmouth should be kept open until we Scots vote to become independent, or not.
I am sick and tired of the weak insipid replies to these unionist bigots by the likes of Maxwell and Hosie who try and keep this polite diplomatic demeanour. You cannot do this any more, it is time to start attacking these bigots and return fire with fire. The likes of Murphy needs to be played at his own game and shout him down. His mannerisms and putting out his hand and laying his hand on the Torys arm when he was trying to make a point, show him up as very weak on debate and high on the bully factor like Davidson, and the head man Joyce. If I were the Tory chappy I would have told him to keep his bloody hands to himself.
Murphy lied through his teeth when he said that the yards were only open because of the Royal Navy and Maxwell should have nailed him on that. The yards are still there because of Jimmy Reid and the workers who fought Ted Heath in to a corner, and forced him to U turn. Otherwise only Ferguson’s would have been left in Port Glasgow. That was Jimmy Reids legacy for Scotland.
A very poor performance from Maxwell. The SNP need to man up and meet this tide of propaganda that is now washing over us and will become a Tsunami by 2014. The media have shown us that they are going to let the Unionist bigots say what they want, lies and myths are going to be the Unionists argument for the Union, being backed up by the BBC and the MSM. The SNP need to get a grip.
#
2012-03-08 13:04
Quoting DonaldMhor:
Agreed.
Quote:# ScotInNotts 2012-03-07 13:27
O/T Labour backbenchers (Central Ayrshire MP) cosying up to CMD on the subject of “separatists” and the supposed damging effect on investment due to the “delay” ofthe independence referendum.
However more cringeworthy was the daily politics with Jim Murphy. They ran a piece on shipbuilding, with the leader of Portsmouth council advocating his case for his local yard. Namely, that Portsmouth should be kept open until we Scots vote to become independent, or not.
I am sick and tired of the weak insipid replies to these unionist bigots by the likes of Maxwell and Hosie who try and keep this polite diplomatic demeanour. You cannot do this any more, it is time to start attacking these bigots and return fire with fire. The likes of Murphy needs to be played at his own game and shout him down. His mannerisms and putting out his hand and laying his hand on the Torys arm when he was trying to make a point, show him up as very weak on debate and high on the bully factor like Davidson, and the head man Joyce. If I were the Tory chappy I would have told him to keep his bloody hands to himself.
Murphy lied through his teeth when he said that the yards were only open because of the Royal Navy and Maxwell should have nailed him on that. The yards are still there because of Jimmy Reid and the workers who fought Ted Heath in to a corner, and forced him to U turn. Otherwise only Ferguson’s would have been left in Port Glasgow. That was Jimmy Reids legacy for Scotland.
A very poor performance from Maxwell. The SNP need to man up and meet this tide of propaganda that is now washing over us and will become a Tsunami by 2014. The media have shown us that they are going to let the Unionist bigots say what they want, lies and myths are going to be the Unionists argument for the Union, being backed up by the BBC and the MSM. The SNP need to get a grip.
Agreed.
#
2012-03-07 14:31
O/T Here is yet another (yawn) Lards ammendment to the Scotland Bill. It looks interesting though to be honest I don’t have the time to go looking for which line the amendment pertains to to get a full picture. However it relates to there being as a consequence disallowing the use of pound sterling as a currency. It can be viewed here:-
publications.parliament.uk/…/…
publications.parliament.uk/…/…
#
2012-03-07 14:34
“and in consequence to cease to use the Pound Sterling as its currency”
Our friend, the earl of caithness. Thats pretty much all it says. I presume that it means if we vote for independence then we will be forced to stop using sterling.
‘Yawn’ is the right reaction Islegard.
Our friend, the earl of caithness. Thats pretty much all it says. I presume that it means if we vote for independence then we will be forced to stop using sterling.
‘Yawn’ is the right reaction Islegard.
#
2012-03-07 14:37
Why their lardships are still spending so much time and effort on this Bill I’ll never know.
#
2012-03-07 15:22
How can these buffoons get off with distorting democratic process by inserting clauses in a draft bill which are nothing less than political responses to recent statements of the FM?
Do you think they can keep it up for another couple of years, by which time they’ll have made everything the SNP states as policy illegal. Interesting approach to legislation…
Do you think they can keep it up for another couple of years, by which time they’ll have made everything the SNP states as policy illegal. Interesting approach to legislation…
#
2012-03-07 15:27
The Bill a dangerous demented piece of legislation in the first place. Has been changed beyond all recognition by the monumental Lard amendments. For the worse!
#
2012-03-07 17:39
Quoting tartanfever:
It is nonsense, and I am sure the duffers in the unelected house of Lords know it. They see the Scotland bill as a game, as they now know it is redundant and the Scottish parliament will never give it consent.
Once independent, Scotland could use any tradable currency it wants. If it chooses to use pounds sterling then there is literally nothing England can do to stop it.
It is an absurd amendment. The duffers in the unelected house of Lords are starting to make fools of themselves. Pay no heed – I gave up weeks ago when they started making frankly ridiculous amendments.
Very, very childish.
“and in consequence to cease to use the Pound Sterling as its currency”
Our friend, the earl of caithness. Thats pretty much all it says. I presume that it means if we vote for independence then we will be forced to stop using sterling.
‘Yawn’ is the right reaction Islegard.
It is nonsense, and I am sure the duffers in the unelected house of Lords know it. They see the Scotland bill as a game, as they now know it is redundant and the Scottish parliament will never give it consent.
Once independent, Scotland could use any tradable currency it wants. If it chooses to use pounds sterling then there is literally nothing England can do to stop it.
It is an absurd amendment. The duffers in the unelected house of Lords are starting to make fools of themselves. Pay no heed – I gave up weeks ago when they started making frankly ridiculous amendments.
Very, very childish.
#
2012-03-07 15:01
O/T – just had the pleasure of seeing G Campbell of the EBC on the lunchtime news having to give the Gers figures.
That must have pained him to do that. 9.6% of GDP and we see 9.3% in return. He tried his best to refute the figures saying that the bank bailout figures were not included and the unionists argument that these figures are all based on oil wealth which is highly volatile.
Dear oh dear..
That must have pained him to do that. 9.6% of GDP and we see 9.3% in return. He tried his best to refute the figures saying that the bank bailout figures were not included and the unionists argument that these figures are all based on oil wealth which is highly volatile.
Dear oh dear..
#
2012-03-07 16:01
On the same story TF.
guardian.co.uk/…/…
They really don’t like the fact we do count that oil resource as ours. 🙂
guardian.co.uk/…/…
They really don’t like the fact we do count that oil resource as ours. 🙂
#
2012-03-07 16:11
Gavin Brown, the Scottish Tory finance spokesman, said “Instead of the Scottish taxpayer shouldering this burden it is currently spread evenly across the rest of the UK. By using the strength of our union we are more able to cope with this deficit”
‘We’ being the English, presumably, who are able to spread their debt to Scotland.
‘We’ being the English, presumably, who are able to spread their debt to Scotland.
#
2012-03-07 16:28
“By using the strength of our union we are more able to cope with this deficit”.
Scotland doesn’t have a deficit and hasn’t for years.
England has a deficit:- The budget deficit is forecast to be £163 billion (11.1% of GDP) this year 2011-2012. parliament.uk/…/….
England has had a huge deficit for years which has created the huge debt “we” owe.
In layman’s terms deficit is the equivalent of someone going mental with their credit and living way beyond their income and racking up huge debt. – England.
As opposed to a sensible, financially prudent individual who doesn’t spend more than they earn and in fact would have enough to save in the bank – Scotland.
It would appear Scotland is little more than England’s credit card and ability to pay. They live it up and we pay for it.
It’s also worth mentioning this years deficit is a massive increase on the 2010-2011 deficit WITH ALL THE CUTS!
Scotland doesn’t have a deficit and hasn’t for years.
England has a deficit:- The budget deficit is forecast to be £163 billion (11.1% of GDP) this year 2011-2012. parliament.uk/…/….
England has had a huge deficit for years which has created the huge debt “we” owe.
In layman’s terms deficit is the equivalent of someone going mental with their credit and living way beyond their income and racking up huge debt. – England.
As opposed to a sensible, financially prudent individual who doesn’t spend more than they earn and in fact would have enough to save in the bank – Scotland.
It would appear Scotland is little more than England’s credit card and ability to pay. They live it up and we pay for it.
It’s also worth mentioning this years deficit is a massive increase on the 2010-2011 deficit WITH ALL THE CUTS!
#
2012-03-07 16:43
Countries budgets are similar to a persons personal budget. Income versus Expediture. Debt and assets.
When you break down theses 4 factors for England and Scotland it’s shocking what they get away with.
When you break down theses 4 factors for England and Scotland it’s shocking what they get away with.
#
2012-03-07 16:45
Pure gold. Cry foul, those territories are Extra Regio and profits shouldn’t be considered for the report. Or jings oil prices fluctuate you know and you couldn’t handle the strain of keeping pace with sharp declines.
We need somebody bigger and smarter to look after us. 😉
We need somebody bigger and smarter to look after us. 😉
#
2012-03-07 16:54
Another thing about GERS is its aguestimate but in errs on the conservative side. It doesn’t take into account the full range and reality of tax Scotland can raise. Or the massive job creation which would come about from setting up your own country.
#
2012-03-07 17:01
Fully agree Islegard. Most figures in the oil industry are if anything underestimated.
#
2012-03-07 17:17
Quoting Macart:
Funny how Financial Markets are deemed a safe bet to base an economy on,when was the last time Oil prices caused the amount of grief that our money men have caused?
Pure gold. Cry foul, those territories are Extra Regio and profits shouldn’t be considered for the report. Or jings oil prices fluctuate you know and you couldn’t handle the strain of keeping pace with sharp declines.
Quoting Macart:Pure gold. Cry foul, those territories are Extra Regio and profits shouldn’t be considered for the report. Or jings oil prices fluctuate you know and you couldn’t handle the strain of keeping pace with sharp declines.
We need somebody bigger and smarter to look after us. 😉
somebody bigger and smarter to look after us. 😉
Funny how Financial Markets are deemed a safe bet to base an economy on,when was the last time Oil prices caused the amount of grief that our money men have caused?
#
2012-03-07 18:06
Ridiculous, isn’t it? We can’t rely in part on a revenue stream that generally only decreases when the UK Chancellor plays silly games with the tax on it, but the UK proudly relies almost wholly on a revenue stream that cost them – apparently entirely unexpectedly – over £1 trillion. If oil is ever that volatile, I might think again about independence…and still end up deciding that we’re better off making our own mistakes rather than bailing England out of theirs.
#
2012-03-07 22:11
Yup, apparently its fine to play financial Russian Roulette with City speculators but disaster to base an economy on resource.
Who knew? 🙂
Who knew? 🙂
#
2012-03-07 16:20
It would help immensely if the economic figures of both England and Scotland could be reported together, so that a comparison can be made by the listener/viewer.
Without some sort of benchmark, these figures will be as mis-leading as the reporter wants them to be.
It’s high time we put England’s economy under some scrutiny!
Without some sort of benchmark, these figures will be as mis-leading as the reporter wants them to be.
It’s high time we put England’s economy under some scrutiny!
#
2012-03-07 18:29
I couldn’t get where the £10b was coming from, but Campbell made it sound as though it was on the wrong side of what we would want.
#
2012-03-07 19:43
Douglas Fraser on Reporting North Britain saying that GERS figures prove that Scotland can’t afford to be independent. Does any other country have a national broadcaster intent on spreading untruths about it?
#
2012-03-07 20:24
How did he reason that when it clearly shows the opposite? Other than the fact there isn’t such a thing as a country which can’t afford to be independent.
#
2012-03-07 20:30
The point is, and as GERS has always shown, is that Scotland is stronger financially than the UK as a whole. It has either shown Scotland running at a surplus, or at a lower level of defiicit than the UK.
What is consistent, is that even now, Scotland is contributing more to the London treasury than it gets back. Scotland according to GERS 2010-2011 is literally subsidising England. Yet still Labour bleats that Scotland is too poor to run its own affairs.
There seems to be a notion, that somehow Scotland needs, unlike any other country in the world, to only ever work on a surplus, but this is just nonsense, Many countries work without surpluses, and indeed run with deficits.
Scotland has been shown time and again to be financially strong, but even if you do not have all the figures, it is hard to imagine that a country rich in oil and renewables would somehow not be ale to manage its own affairs. Most small countries in Europe have no oil or gas, yet manage just fine, with better infrastructure than Scotland gets within the union.
Labour today, are doing their usual of talking Scotland down ‘oh, you can’t be independent, even with all the oil, as one day it will run out’.
Utter, utter tosh, of the very worst forelock tugging, Labour British Nationalist, anti independence, cringing kind.
We can either have independence, or we can carry on subsidising England whilst being daily ridiculed in English newspapers as ‘subsidy junkies’.
I know which I choose.
What is consistent, is that even now, Scotland is contributing more to the London treasury than it gets back. Scotland according to GERS 2010-2011 is literally subsidising England. Yet still Labour bleats that Scotland is too poor to run its own affairs.
There seems to be a notion, that somehow Scotland needs, unlike any other country in the world, to only ever work on a surplus, but this is just nonsense, Many countries work without surpluses, and indeed run with deficits.
Scotland has been shown time and again to be financially strong, but even if you do not have all the figures, it is hard to imagine that a country rich in oil and renewables would somehow not be ale to manage its own affairs. Most small countries in Europe have no oil or gas, yet manage just fine, with better infrastructure than Scotland gets within the union.
Labour today, are doing their usual of talking Scotland down ‘oh, you can’t be independent, even with all the oil, as one day it will run out’.
Utter, utter tosh, of the very worst forelock tugging, Labour British Nationalist, anti independence, cringing kind.
We can either have independence, or we can carry on subsidising England whilst being daily ridiculed in English newspapers as ‘subsidy junkies’.
I know which I choose.
#
2012-03-07 20:33
I haven’t seen the GERS figures are they showing surplus or deficit? Also bear in mind UK deficit is £163 billion.
#
2012-03-07 21:27
According to the BBC – Scottish deficit is £10bn. They announced this but did not announce the UK deficit figure
Glenn Campbell on lunchtime news said we created 9.6% of the wealth and saw 9.3% returned to us from Westminster, he did not put in what I think is an important figure, we are 8.4% of the population.
Also mentioned that this does not include any bank bailout money ? And gave air to Labour’s claims that this we have a market which is solely dependable on oil, which is a very volatile commodity.
Don’t know what happened in Reporting Scotland as my tv doesn’t work anymore with a size 9 boot through the screen…
Glenn Campbell on lunchtime news said we created 9.6% of the wealth and saw 9.3% returned to us from Westminster, he did not put in what I think is an important figure, we are 8.4% of the population.
Also mentioned that this does not include any bank bailout money ? And gave air to Labour’s claims that this we have a market which is solely dependable on oil, which is a very volatile commodity.
Don’t know what happened in Reporting Scotland as my tv doesn’t work anymore with a size 9 boot through the screen…
#
2012-03-07 16:28
pictic
Sorry I cannot give you the link as I did not save it Apparently Labour had,before leaving office, discounted the UK from this tender meaning when the condems took it over there were no UK tenders on the table Had not heard of this latest one so cannot comment
Sorry I cannot give you the link as I did not save it Apparently Labour had,before leaving office, discounted the UK from this tender meaning when the condems took it over there were no UK tenders on the table Had not heard of this latest one so cannot comment
#
2012-03-07 16:40
I beleive it is true, the Italians had submitted as part of the tender, that the main fabrication would be done by BAe
By the way, this excuse by Defence Equipment Minister Peter Luff that its a ‘tanker’ and that ‘we dont build tanker’s in the UK’ doesnt exactly hold water (pardon the pun)
As first of all its not a tanker,its a fleet replenishment ship (refueling at sea is part of its capabilities), hense the lifting units (cranes) you see along the main deck and the heli pad and hanger at the rear, not exactly what you get on a ‘tanker’
As for not doing tanker’s, thats guff
By the way, this excuse by Defence Equipment Minister Peter Luff that its a ‘tanker’ and that ‘we dont build tanker’s in the UK’ doesnt exactly hold water (pardon the pun)
As first of all its not a tanker,its a fleet replenishment ship (refueling at sea is part of its capabilities), hense the lifting units (cranes) you see along the main deck and the heli pad and hanger at the rear, not exactly what you get on a ‘tanker’
As for not doing tanker’s, thats guff
#
2012-03-07 18:59
Quoting Old Smokey:
RFA Wave Ruler (2003) BAE GOVAN
I beleive it is true, the Italians had submitted as part of the tender, that the main fabrication would be done by BAe
By the way, this excuse by Defence Equipment Minister Peter Luff that its a ‘tanker’ and that ‘we dont build tanker’s in the UK’ doesnt exactly hold water (pardon the pun)
As first of all its not a tanker,its a fleet replenishment ship (refueling at sea is part of its capabilities), hense the lifting units (cranes) you see along the main deck and the heli pad and hanger at the rear, not exactly what you get on a ‘tanker’
As for not doing tanker’s, thats guff
RFA Wave Ruler (2003) BAE GOVAN
#
2012-03-07 16:23
Apologies for O/T, but this is potentially significant:
presstv.com/detail/230414.html Maker of timer allegedly used in Lockerbie bombing is to sue Crown Office and Police for £33.75m
presstv.com/detail/230414.html Maker of timer allegedly used in Lockerbie bombing is to sue Crown Office and Police for £33.75m
#
2012-03-07 16:35
They have denied from way back that their timer was involved and that the bag could not have been put on the plane at Malta using their device
I read many lengthy articles from this firm
Read this morning that they were planning to sue as the makeup of the metal on the fragment found was
different from the ones supplied to Lybia
I read many lengthy articles from this firm
Read this morning that they were planning to sue as the makeup of the metal on the fragment found was
different from the ones supplied to Lybia
#
2012-03-07 18:58
Re Govan these two were built for the RFA:
RFA Wave Ruler (2003)
RFA Mounts Bay (2004)
RFA Wave Ruler is a Wave-class fast fleet tanker of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) of the United Kingdom tasked with providing fuel, food, fresh water, ammunition and other supplies to Royal Navy vessels around the world.
So once more we see Hammond AND Defence Equipment Minister Peter Luff, telling lies to spread propaganda around re Scottish shipbuilding.
We have built tankers. Govan has shown it can build any kind of Royal Navy ship afloat. Will this be reported, will the SNP rebut the lies and propaganda of these crooks.
Will we ever find out why BAE Govan did not tender for these tankers?
This is now spite driven defense procurement. Anything to undermine Scotland.
en.wikipedia.org/…/…
RFA Wave Ruler (2003)
RFA Mounts Bay (2004)
RFA Wave Ruler is a Wave-class fast fleet tanker of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) of the United Kingdom tasked with providing fuel, food, fresh water, ammunition and other supplies to Royal Navy vessels around the world.
So once more we see Hammond AND Defence Equipment Minister Peter Luff, telling lies to spread propaganda around re Scottish shipbuilding.
We have built tankers. Govan has shown it can build any kind of Royal Navy ship afloat. Will this be reported, will the SNP rebut the lies and propaganda of these crooks.
Will we ever find out why BAE Govan did not tender for these tankers?
This is now spite driven defense procurement. Anything to undermine Scotland.
en.wikipedia.org/…/…
#
2012-03-07 19:04
Ships built at Govan
PS Vanguard (1843)
HMS Northampton (1876)
HMS Nelson (1876)
HMS Curacoa (1878)
SS Arizona (1879)
Ibis (1886)
Akasha (1886)
Livadia (1880)
Victoria (1886)
RMS Campania (1891)
RMS Lucania (1893)
HMS Cressy (1899)
HMS Aboukir (1900)
SS Armadale Castle (1903)
HMS Cochrane (1905)
HMS Commonwealth (1905)
RMS Empress of Britain (1906)
RMS Empress of Ireland (1906)
HMS Indomitable (1907)
SS Balmoral Castle (1910)
HMS New Zealand (1911)
HMAS Sydney (1912)
RMS Empress of Russia (1913)
RMS Empress of Asia (1913)
SS Calgarian (1913)
HMS Valiant (1914)
HMS Renown (1916)
RMS Empress of Canada (1922)
SS Athenia (1922)
Aorangi (1922)
TSS Tuscania (1923)
SS Letitia (1924)
MV Speybank (1926)
HMS Berwick (1926)
HMS Norfolk (1928)
RMS Empress of Japan (1930)
HMS Delight (1932)
HMS Woolwich (1934)
HMS Liverpool (1937)
HMS Phoebe (1937)
HMS Howe (1940)
HMS Bellona (1942)
HMS Implacable (1942)
HMS Theseus (1944)
HMS Chichester
HMS Blake (1945)
SS Karanja (1948)
TS Oxfordshire (1955)
TS/SS Empress of Britain (1956)
TS Leecliffe Hall (1961)
HMS Fife (1964)
HMS Antrim (1967)
USNS Harkness (1968)
HMAS Jervis Bay (1969)
Pacifique (1969)
USNS Chauvenet (1970)
Pacific Peace (1981)
MV Selkirk Settler (1983)
MV Saskatchewan Pioneer (1983)
St. Lawrence Seaway (1983)
Sir Charles Parsons (1985)
MV Norsea (1986)
MV Havis (1992)
Sea Launch Commander (1996)
RFA Wave Ruler (2003)
RFA Mounts Bay (2004)
HMS Dauntless (2007)
HMS Diamond (2007)
HMS Dragon (2008)
RMS Yerdasda (2009)
HMS Defender (2009).[
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govan
PS Vanguard (1843)
HMS Northampton (1876)
HMS Nelson (1876)
HMS Curacoa (1878)
SS Arizona (1879)
Ibis (1886)
Akasha (1886)
Livadia (1880)
Victoria (1886)
RMS Campania (1891)
RMS Lucania (1893)
HMS Cressy (1899)
HMS Aboukir (1900)
SS Armadale Castle (1903)
HMS Cochrane (1905)
HMS Commonwealth (1905)
RMS Empress of Britain (1906)
RMS Empress of Ireland (1906)
HMS Indomitable (1907)
SS Balmoral Castle (1910)
HMS New Zealand (1911)
HMAS Sydney (1912)
RMS Empress of Russia (1913)
RMS Empress of Asia (1913)
SS Calgarian (1913)
HMS Valiant (1914)
HMS Renown (1916)
RMS Empress of Canada (1922)
SS Athenia (1922)
Aorangi (1922)
TSS Tuscania (1923)
SS Letitia (1924)
MV Speybank (1926)
HMS Berwick (1926)
HMS Norfolk (1928)
RMS Empress of Japan (1930)
HMS Delight (1932)
HMS Woolwich (1934)
HMS Liverpool (1937)
HMS Phoebe (1937)
HMS Howe (1940)
HMS Bellona (1942)
HMS Implacable (1942)
HMS Theseus (1944)
HMS Chichester
HMS Blake (1945)
SS Karanja (1948)
TS Oxfordshire (1955)
TS/SS Empress of Britain (1956)
TS Leecliffe Hall (1961)
HMS Fife (1964)
HMS Antrim (1967)
USNS Harkness (1968)
HMAS Jervis Bay (1969)
Pacifique (1969)
USNS Chauvenet (1970)
Pacific Peace (1981)
MV Selkirk Settler (1983)
MV Saskatchewan Pioneer (1983)
St. Lawrence Seaway (1983)
Sir Charles Parsons (1985)
MV Norsea (1986)
MV Havis (1992)
Sea Launch Commander (1996)
RFA Wave Ruler (2003)
RFA Mounts Bay (2004)
HMS Dauntless (2007)
HMS Diamond (2007)
HMS Dragon (2008)
RMS Yerdasda (2009)
HMS Defender (2009).[
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govan
#
2012-03-07 19:21
…and ching, ching, right into the treasury coffers to spread thickly over London and the SE.
Stronger together, aye right!
Stronger together, aye right!
#
2012-03-07 20:45
My condolences go to Paul McBride’s family at this tragic time. However, the First Minister et al should stop and consider that this is unfortunately a common occurence and such help should be offered to all, not just to one person because that person was at the top of his profession and well known.
I have friends and family who have found themselves in such circumstances when their loved ones have died abroad and no assistance was forthcoming. It has taken 3 to 4 weeks in these circumstances for the deceased to be brought home. Mr McBride’s family are indeed very fortunate that theirs has been so speedy thouhg nonethelss equally traumatic for them.
I have friends and family who have found themselves in such circumstances when their loved ones have died abroad and no assistance was forthcoming. It has taken 3 to 4 weeks in these circumstances for the deceased to be brought home. Mr McBride’s family are indeed very fortunate that theirs has been so speedy thouhg nonethelss equally traumatic for them.
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Doesn't Peston have form on this? Do I r... - RBS leak 'extraordinary' says ...
Two links to a couple of articles on the... - RBS leak 'extraordinary' says ...
The Nikkei would be open before the Lond...