By a Newsnet reporter

First Minister Alex Salmond’s keynote speech to the SNP conference on Saturday afternoon announced the party’s “message of hope” to Scotland.  Speaking before a packed hall at the Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre in Glasgow, Mr Salmond’s speech was relayed to delegates in four overspill rooms.

He told delegates that even with the limited and restricted powers Scotland already has under devolution, the Scottish Government had “made Scotland a better place”.

But the First Minister stressed that with independence, Scotland could achieve even more, saying:  “A little independence has been good for Scotland.  But real independence will be even better.”

Listing the progress already made by the Scottish Government under devolution, he said that the difference with independence was that while a devolved government could only “demand”, an independent government could “deliver”.

The SNP leader told delegates in Glasgow that, in government, his party had delivered for Scotland through policies like protecting health spending, keeping education free and encouraging companies to do business there.

This, he said, had come against a backdrop of UK government spending cuts and almost universal opposition from Labour to the policies of his party.

Mr Salmond said that the days of politicians in London telling Scotland what to do “were over”.  He added: “We should of course thank the prime minister – after his intervention SNP membership has surged, up over 2,400 in the weeks that followed.  This support will continue to rise, because home rule with independence beats Tory rule from Westminster – any time and any day.”

The SNP leader criticised the anti-independence parties for their “negativity”.  He condemned the Labour party for its blind opposition to any measure supported by the SNP government and said that Labour’s record was one of blocking apprenticeships, resisting the council tax freeze – yet cynically voting to support a council tax cut in alliance with the Tories in Stirling – and voting against an increase in police numbers.

He said: “The only consistent thing about Labour in Scotland is that they now vote with the Tories at every opportunity.

“That is why the people of Scotland now vote against Labour at every opportunity.”

With an eye on May’s local government elections Mr Salmond said voters had the chance call “time’s up” on Labour in its “local fiefdoms” saying that the party had lost its way.  He added: “And if there is any place that needs relief from a Labour Party that has lost its way, it is this city of Glasgow.”

Glasgow is the prime target for the SNP in the forthcoming local authority elections.  Glasgow and neighbouring North Lanarkshire are the only remaining local authorities under Labour majority control.  

The First Minister unveiled a £5 million package which aims to ensure a further 2,500 young people are given the right support to help them towards the world of work.  In December last year the Scottish Government appointed a dedicated Youth Employment Minister, the first in Europe.  The new funding will assist the development of volunteering opportunities.

Mr Salmond said:  “This will engage young people in volunteering opportunities in the international and national events Scotland will have the privilege to host over the next three years.

“Let me be clear conference – this government’s commitment to our young men and women is unwavering.  We intend to create the conditions in this land which will see a life opportunity for every young Scot.”

With the Commonwealth Games and golf’s Ryder Cup due to come to Scotland in 2014, Mr Salmond announced a new £10 million fund to help communities across Scotland bring their sporting facilities into the 21st century.  Mr Salmond said:  

“Whether it be a renovation to a community hall, re-turfing of a bowling green or even a new multi-purpose sports field – our aim is to inspire Scots young and old to seize the opportunity presented by the games and its legacy to become a better nation.”  

The First Minister also announced a new measure to improve nursery education for 2 to 4 year olds, promising that the Children’s Bill due to be introduced to Parliament next year will contain a statutory guarantee giving over 600 hours of free nursery educatoin for every 3 and 4 year old.  The measure would give Scotland the best pre-school provision of any part of the UK.

Mr Salmond said:  “We have long cherished the ambition to increase pre-school education.  In our first term we moved it from 412 hours to 475 hours free pre-school per annum, benefiting 100,000 children a year.

“Now we intend to move further and to place it in statute so that families in every part of Scotland can share in the benefit.

“Conference, we will place into the new Children’s Bill introduced to Parliament next year a statutory guarantee of over 600 hours of free nursery education for every Scottish 3 and 4 year old and for every looked after 2 year old in our land.

“The best package of free nursery education on offer anywhere in the UK – a statement of faith and commitment to the future.”

Mr Salmond ended his speech with a call for independence, and for Scotland’s unique voice to be heard in the world.  Scotland would seek a “partnership of equals” with the other nations of the British Isles.  

Calling on Scots to “choose our own direction and contribute in our own distinct way”, Mr Salmond said: “With independence we stand on our own two feet, but we don’t stand on our own.  

“We gain a new, more modern relationship with the other nations of the UK – a true partnership of equals.”

Alex Salmond’s speech in full:

Almost a year ago to the day I stood on this very stage and spoke to you about Scotland’s future.

We were behind in the polls.  The press did not give us a chance but we believed in our cause.

I said that if we worked hard, if we earned the trust and support of the Scottish people, then together we would make this nation a stronger, fairer and better place.

Just a few short weeks later, in the Scottish election, the people of Scotland placed their trust in us.

And they did so in record, overwhelming numbers.

Friends, since then our every action has been about repaying that trust,

About honouring our commitment to the people.

Today, in every town and every community, we are working as never before, to make Scotland the country we all know it can be.

Building recovery.

Creating opportunity.

And working for a Scotland that can truly prosper – the strong economy and the just society.

And what a difference those extra SNP votes have made, the special votes, the ones which built an absolute majority in our proportional Parliament.

This time last year we had just passed our final budget as a minority government.

Our plans scraping through despite Labour opposition.

Back then, Labour opposed, and almost stopped, our plans for 25,000 modern apprenticeships.

They rejected, and almost defeated, our plans to protect family budgets with the council tax freeze and to keep our streets safer with the 1,000 extra police.

A Labour party, yes, a Labour party, voting against work and training for young Scots.

Once upon a time, it is said, Labour were the ‘people’s party’, but delegates, in May last year the people spoke.

And they chose Scotland’s party.

What a difference a year makes.

That difference is not in the nature of the Labour opposition we face.

If we say black, Labour will still insist it is white.

If I say the sky is blue they say ‘No it isnae.’

As we move forward, they will still do all they can to hold Scotland back.

Even now, even in this year’s budget they couldn’t help themselves.

Voting against the 25,000 apprenticeships, again .

Voting against the council tax freeze, again.

Against the extra police, again.

Conference the Labour Party want everyone in Scotland to pay hundreds of pounds more Council Tax – despite the pressure on family budgets everyone is to pay hundreds more except in the case of Stirling Council where they voted with the Tories to reduce it by 23p a week.

That’s right a whole 23p – while they voted with the Tories in the Scottish Parliament against the freeze.

The only consistent thing about Labour in Scotland is that they now vote with the Tories at every opportunity.

That is why the people of Scotland now vote against Labour at every opportunity.

And just as last year’s election took away the power of the Labour party to block progress across Scotland. So too can these elections in May.

The people can call ‘time’s up’ on Labour’s local fiefdoms.

And if there is any place that needs relief from a Labour party that has lost its way, it is this city of Glasgow.

Friends, Scotland can flourish, and Glasgow will flourish, with the SNP.  

Last year, I stood on this platform and spoke of Glasgow and how its influence has stretched across the world.

First as the workshop of the empire and now as a creative city – building a new empire of the mind.

I announced a £90m investment – Government and private sector – in Strathclyde University’s International Technology and Renewable Energy Zone.  IT-REZ is what they call it.

This was a substantial announcement at the cutting edge of the green revolution and the knowledge economy.  Combining Scotland’s great strengths – our environment, our people and our education.

It was a promise, a signal, of better days to come.  A first step in the green re-industrialisation of this city, and of this country.

And it is a project that is already bearing fruit.  Today, one year on, there are already over 100 jobs directly linked to the Innovation Centre.

100 high skill, high value jobs.  Jobs in this city that will keep Scotland at the forefront of green energy research and create opportunities across the nation.

And it is just the start.  Delegates, at IT-REZ we can expect a further 600 high-skill, high-value jobs will be created in the years to come.

It is just one investment among many – north, south, east and west.

Taqa, Avaloq, Samsung and more. Energy, finance, engineering.  International companies making Scotland their home. Combining with Clyde Blowers, the Wood Group/PSN, Global Energy –  Scottish companies making the world their oyster.

Jobs and opportunities – that is our priority.

Last December we appointed a Minister for Youth Employment, Angela Constance, the first such appointment anywhere in these islands.

Angela has an additional budget of £30 million and a clear instruction – to do all she can to improve the life chances of young Scots.

We have a clear commitment to all our young people who yearn to be productive.

No young person should go through school only to become, and stay, an unemployment statistic at the age of 16.  We will not allow that in Scotland.

That’s why we’ve delivered 300,000 training opportunities since 2007 – including those record 25,000 Modern Apprenticeships this year.

Apprenticeships, each and every one of them linked to a real job.

Friends, those 25,000 apprenticeships aren’t just for one year – they are for every year of this Parliament.

And we are taking forward opportunities for all – an initiative that will see every single 16 – 19 year old in Scotland offered a learning or training place if they are not in already in a job, a Modern Apprenticeship or education.

But more can and more must be done.

Today – I can announce a £5 million package which will ensure a further 2,500 young people are given the right support to help them towards the world of work.  This will engage young people in volunteering opportunities in the international and national events Scotland will have the privilege to host over the next three years.

Let me be clear conference – this government’s commitment to our young men and women is unwavering.  We intend to create the conditions in this land which will see a life opportunity for every young Scot.

Friends, today is about progress, about Scotland moving up a gear.

It is about the path and the opportunities that lie ahead.

In this land of possibilities, in this Scotland, we have much to look forward to.

In a little over two years this city will host the Commonwealth Games and preparations continue to be on track and on budget.  Construction began last summer on the athletes’ village which will accommodate over 6,500 competitors.  And once the games are done, that great facility will be used to provide affordable homes for local families.

Around this very Conference venue is being built the Scottish Hydro Arena, the venue for netball and gymnastics during the Games.  The arena will seat 12,000 people and will become one of Europe’s busiest venues, contributing £131 million annually to the Scottish economy.

No longer will we be turning away big acts like Barbra Streisand and Beyonce.

Indeed if this party keeps growing at the current rate we might need it for our own Annual Conference!

As First Minister I’m committed to ensure we make these games the greatest sporting event our country has ever seen.  I look forward to these Commonwealth Games, not only because Scotland competes in her own right, but also because I know they will put Scotland on a global stage, where we belong.

In 2014 our light will shine for the world to see, through the Commonwealth Games, the Ryder Cup, and the second Homecoming Year.

But as well as having great ambitions for Scotland’s sporting stars at the 2014 Games, this Government has great aspirations for the event to be a catalyst for economic and social regeneration.

With real benefits for communities and individuals.  For our society as a whole.

And that is why I’m delighted to announce today a new legacy initiative.

The establishment of a £10 million fund that will allow communities to bring their local sports facilities across Scotland into the 21st century.

Whether it be a renovation to a community hall, re-turfing of a bowling green or even a new multi-purpose sports field – our aim is to inspire Scots young and old to seize the opportunity presented by the games and its legacy to become a better nation.  

Yes – these are exciting times for Glasgow.  Jobs are coming, the Commonwealth Games are coming and as far as May’s Local Elections are concerned – the SNP are coming!

Delegates – 2014 will also see another significant event for Scotland…

In January, the Prime Minister tried to lay down the law and dictate the terms of Scotland’s referendum.

Parties so long opposed to any referendum, now want to run the referendum.

But I’ve got a message for Messrs Cameron, Clegg and Miliband.  

The days of politicians in London what to do and what to think are over.

Delegates, we should of course thank the Prime Minister.  After his intervention SNP membership has surged – up over 2,400 in the weeks that followed.

As Robert Burns might have said: ‘The best laid plans of mice and the Tory party gang aft agley.’

And friends, this support will continue to rise.

Because home rule with independence beats Tory rule from Westminster.  Any time and any day.

There is a simple and winning truth about independence.

It is fundamentally better for our nation if decisions about our future, about our success, are taken by the people who care most about Scotland.  That is and always will be the people who live in Scotland.

We have the greatest stake in our nation’s wellbeing.  In good times or bad, it is the people of Scotland who will work hardest and care most.  No one will do a better job than the people living here.

With the people of Scotland in charge, speaking with our own voice, reflecting our own values and our priorities – we will make our country better.

This is our message of hope for this nation.

And how it contrasts with the London parties’ message of fear.  They want to knock Scotland’s confidence and self-belief.  They seek victory through negativity.

But friends, they are not even very good at that.

Since David Cameron’s blunder into Scotland’s constitutional debate we have been treated to some very bizarre contributions from the anti-independence parties.

William Hague said British embassies would no longer promote Scotch whisky, according to the Daily Mail.

But, I dug a little deeper and discovered Mr Hague actually charges the Scottish Government when we hold a Scotch whisky reception!

And the Daily Mirror reported a threat to take away our pandas!

But don’t worry – Tian Tian and Yang Guang will be staying in Scotland.  I’ve offered them political asylum, while reflecting of course that the UK Government did not contribute a single RMB to the cost of the pandas’ arrival in our capital city!

Friends, the people of Scotland have got wise to these scare-stories.  It was a Westminster tactic tried before to stop devolution.  It failed then because the people of Scotland saw it for what it was – empty, hollow, negative scaremongering.

It failed then, and it will fail now.

Because we know what has been achieved with the power Scotland already has.  We have seen the progress that has been made in those areas where our nation already has some independence.

In our National Health Service . . .

Record low waiting times.

Record high satisfaction with the job our health professionals do.

Prescription charges abolished.

Nye Bevan once said that ‘no society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means.’

In this very spirit, the SNP in Government continues to protect frontline health spending, despite the Westminster cuts and despite the huge pressures on our budget.

Friends, with the people of Scotland in charge of Scotland’s health service we can choose, and have chosen, a different path.

A path that reflects Scotland’s social democratic consensus, our shared progressive values – our priorities as a society.

A Tory prime minister once told us that there was no alternative to her policies.

On the health service we are showing our friends in England there is an alternative.  

And let me be absolutely clear – because of the independence we have over the NHS – this government, this SNP government, will ensure Scotland’s National Health Service is never for sale.

And in education . . .

I remember back to 1979 – just of course, I was a babe in arms – when some of the foremost sceptics about devolution were in our universities.

But is there anyone on campus now – student or academic – who would rather the Tories were in charge of our universities?

Free education would be a thing of the past.

Public funding would be slashed.

And tuition fees would, today, be creating an insurmountable barrier for thousands of young Scots – a barrier to aspiration and talent.

Our Universities are an international success – 5 in the world’s top 200 – more research papers per head than virtually any other nation on the face of this planet – with the protection and independence we have given them from the philistines in Whitehall.

Conference, with even just a taste of independence we have been able to deliver fairer policies than elsewhere in these islands.

In higher education and in further education.

Of that, we should be proud.

As a party, as a government, we will never kick away the ladder of opportunity. Never put a price on learning that undermines the value of learning.

The Tories’ decision to scrap the educational maintenance allowance is part of their same agenda.  An agenda Scotland completely and rightly rejects.

And just as our Parliament stood firm against tuition fees so too do we stand full-square behind the Education Maintenance Allowance, and in support of proper support for our college students.

For 35,000 young Scots – with the SNP the EMA is here to stay.

Delegates, progress, in our NHS, in education and in creating safer communities.

Earlier this week, official statistics were published showing 17,343 police officers in Scotland.

For the fourth year in a row, the SNP government has delivered and protected the 1,000 extra police officers on our streets.  A truly remarkable achievement given Westminster funding cuts and one which Labour said it would take us 13 years!

In this, another area of public life where we have independence, we can choose a better way.

As we work to keep police officers in our communities – delivering a 35 year low in recorded crime and a fear of crime that continues to fall.

Down south, they look to privatise, yes, privatise key police functions. Investigating crime, detaining suspects and even patrolling neighbourhoods – the traditional functions of the police now open not just to the highest bidder but to the lowest common denominator.

And now the UK Government’s own figures reveal that England will see a 16,000 reduction in the number of police.

Conference, the contrast is clear – more bobbies on the beat in Scotland or cuts to coppers under Cameron.

With a measure of independence on health, on education and on law and order we have made Scotland a better place.

Think what we could do with Scottish control of the economy, of international representation and of security.

Our economy needs capital spending and bank lending.

We have sent a list of shovel ready projects to London.  We demand that they are now redeemed.

Our small and medium sized business need finance.  We have major banks largely in the public sector.  Why are they not instructed to lend to force the pace of recovery?

Of course last year we now know from the official figures that with control of our own finances Scotland would have been £2.6 billion better off – £510 for every man women and child in Scotland – money which could have been used to invest in the economy, to reduce borrowing, to save for the future.

In devolved Scotland we can demand.  In an independent Scotland we can deliver.

On international representation, why would we wish to be isolated and ignored in Europe when we could be influential and respected?

On defence why would this nation of 5 million people elect to waste billions on weapons of mass destruction, when we have still have thousands waiting for a decent home and a life chance?

Independence means real security.

Westminster would spend on weapons which could destroy the world.  Scotland should  spend on social provision which could be the envy of the world.  

Friends, our task is to transform Scotland – to change our nation for good.

At the local elections in May we can take the next steps on that journey.  We can elect a strong team of SNP councillors who will put their communities first.

Conference, these elections are about local services.

About help for hard-pressed families, with the Council tax freeze.

About safer streets and keeping the 1,000 extra police.

About giving our unpaid carers more of the support they need.

Every vote for the SNP is a vote to build recovery with investment in new homes and new schools, investment in jobs and training.

We hear and we understand the pressures individuals and families are facing across our nation.

And step by step we will deliver.

We will use the powers we have today and, together, we shall make Scotland better.

That is right and good in itself. But friends, it is more. It is a statement of intent – a signal of the nation we can be, and we will be, with the powers of independence.

For parents and for young Scots, we know where our nation must be, with world-class childcare.

And we know how we can get there.

Already, new investment in children’s centres through the Sure Start Fund.

A re-targetting of resources through the Early Years Fund.

And at these elections, a new step forward.

We have long cherished the ambition to increase pre-school education.  In our first term we moved it from 412 hours to 475 hours free pre-school per annum, benefiting 100,000 children a year.

Now we intend to move further and to place it in statute so that families in every part of Scotland can share in the benefit.

Conference, we will place into the new Children’s Bill introduced to Parliament next year a statutory guarantee of over 600 hours of free nursery education for every Scottish 3 and 4 year old and for every looked after 2 year old in our land.

The best package of free nursery education on offer anywhere in the UK – a statement of faith and commitment to the future.

Flexible in its delivery, using the wisdom of the Early Years Taskforce to help us but definite in our intent.

For every young mum or dad juggling work and parenthood – our message is clear. The SNP is here for you and for your family.

And, friends, the SNP is here to build a fairer Scotland.

My ambition to reduce inequality, to give all Scots a fair chance in life.  Across the world the evidence is clear – the more equal our society the better it will be for all of us.

I want a Scotland where a fair wage is a living wage – where work pays. And that is what we can achieve with independence.

We have taken the first steps already, with every employee of the Scottish Government, the NHS and our agencies, guaranteed from this year at least the living wage of £7.20 an hour.

Two thirds of the thousands who have benefited have been women.

Delegates, where we have the power we shall act.

I can announce today that every SNP led council elected in May will also introduce the living wage.

Thousands more of our lowest paid workers will receive fair pay and fair play with the SNP.

Putting more money in their pockets.

Boosting local economies.

As we build towards a Scotland that is a living wage nation.  

Conference, by our deeds we shall be known.

If we make the right choices for our universities and for fairness and families, who can doubt that we will, also, make the right choices on the economy and on Scotland’s place in the world.

Scotland’s social democracy can survive, survive, can flourish, but only where we have the power.  

We can be a beacon for social justice but only if we allow our light to shine.

Delegates, the lesson is a simple one.  A little independence has been good for Scotland.  But real independence will be even better.

We can put our vast resources to work for the benefit of Scotland, creating a competitive economy and in doing so creating new opportunities and new jobs.

Saving and investing our offshore wealth as the guarantee of a safer, more secure future.

Scotland, not just a nation of promise, but of potential fulfilled.

Standing taller in the world, speaking with our own voice.

A partner for justice and for peace.

Friends, these things and more are just a ‘Yes’ vote away.

When the United Nations was formed there were just over 50 independent countries in the world.  Today, that figure has risen to almost 200.

Some still say independence is difficult.  But, conference, these numbers don’t lie.

Of the 10 countries that joined the European Union in 2004, a majority have become independent since 1990, and Scotland is bigger than six of them.  Each and every one of these nations now has a seat at Europe’s top table: a right they cherish – a right Scotland too should embrace.

Because being independent is the most natural thing in the world.

It is what we seek as individuals – for our own families.

It is the point we take responsibility for our own future and our own success.

We are able to speak with our own voice, choose our own direction and contribute in our own distinct way.

With independence we stand on our own two feet, but we don’t stand on our own.  

We gain a new, more modern relationship with the other nations of the UK – a true partnership of equals.

A 21st century social union, replacing a political union that is long past its sell by date.

It will require effort and commitment to make our country as good as we know it can be.

A Scotland that is better than what we have today: a more successful Scotland that we can pass on proudly to the next generation.

So, let us heed the words of Fletcher of Saltoun and: ‘Go forward into the community of nations to lend our own, independent weight to the world.’


Comments  

 
#
balbeggie
2012-03-10 20:59

Alas I was out today. It must have been good as Angus MacLeod said:

Angus Macleod‏@AMacle  odTimes

Salmond speech was the speech of a politician at the top of his game. Almost relentlessly positive in tone and content
.

also

Kenny Farquharson‏@Ke  nnyFarq


Very impressive speech. Can’t recall Salmond making a better one. Lots of practical politics like nursery announcement. Very good.
 
 
#
Arbroath1320
2012-03-10 21:20

What a difference a week makes!

Last week negativity followed by erm… negativity.

This week positivity followed by positivity followed by positivity!

Now I wonder which conference was the more enjoyable, more informative to watch.

Hmm.

I’ll get back to you on that!
 
 
#
brusque
2012-03-10 21:32

I was a bit miffed at Prof. Curtice suggesting that Alex Salmond was making promises he might not keep!!

Eg; “” a statutory guarantee of over 600 hours of free nursery education for every Scottish 3 and 4 year old and for every looked after 2 year old in our land””.

Prof Curtice said that Mr Salmond had not actually promised the 600 hours of free nursery education, but had promised it would be a statutory guarantee…………..implying that the SNP say things just to hear themselves talk (In my opinion).

Curtice didn’t question any of Johan Lamonts promises last week! Time he was sent off and someone with even a tad more balanced opinion to replace him.
 
 
#
J Wil
2012-03-10 21:41

It really is sad that people like him who are hailed as academics and apparently beyond reproach concerning bias, are nothing of the kind.

All you need to do is follow the money. Getting on the BBC must be quite lucrative and getting on it frequently must require a person to say the right things. The right things as defined by the BBC.

We saw what happened when Iain McWhirter said the right things to the broacasting Commission. He was prevented from appearing as a political commentator until Alex Salmond wrote a letter to the Head of BBC Scotland asking what game was being played (or words to that effect).
 

 
#
hiorta
2012-03-10 21:51

The dozen or so Unionist lackeys who promised to flee Scotland should Devolution arrive, but who quietly unloaded their bullock carts in the night, will surely now reload with the coming of Independence.

Their places will be adequately filled by the thousands who will clamour for a life in the nuclear free, prosperous, top Nation of Scotland.
 
 
#
J Wil
2012-03-10 21:53

They might find that England is not the place they imagine.
 
 
#
gus1940
2012-03-11 07:57

Thankfully we haven’t had a single instance of Mone splashing even more PR rubbish over the media for the last couple of weeks.

Is it too much to hope that she has perhaps actually kept her ‘promise’ and left Scotland to leave us in peace from her relentless campaign for publicity and free advertising via her fans in The MSM.
 
 
#
J Wil
2012-03-11 16:38

Are their egos so huge that they could think that anyone would be bothered by their disappearance.
 

 
#
C2DEalba
2012-03-10 22:06

I watched AS speech earlier with my Grandad. He liked the bit at the beginning where Alex said he was Britain of the Year!

He chortled lots as did I.

Good speech to a packed hall.
 
 
#
Arbroath1320
2012-03-10 22:10

Got to admit the man knows how present his speeches to his audiences, whoever they are.
 
 
#
Arbroath1320
2012-03-10 22:21

Quote:

I watched AS speech earlier with my Grandad. He liked the bit at the beginning where Alex said he was Britain of the Year!




I reckon all the AIB’s were kinda pig sick at that point, and he hadn’t even started his speech at that point. 😀

 

 
#
Ben Power
2012-03-10 22:07

Stunning and inspiring are the descriptions that come to mind about the FM speech.

300+ years of hard work are paying off with our FM, his team and SNP really leading the way right now.

What a contrast to the Tory/libDems/Labour and other unionists with their drivel of confusion and fear mongering.
What would any sane reasonable person vote for with those comparisons?
 
 
#
Arbroath1320
2012-03-10 22:14

FEAR!

Believing in the fear, misinformation, lies, and other underhand slurs that are promulgated by the AIOB

That is the only reason anyone would vote for any of the AIB parties.
 

 
#
Robert Louis
2012-03-10 22:12

Indeed, the comparison with the anti independence parties is staggering. The First Minister spoke with a positive message of hope, a message of what Scotland CAN achieve, when free to make decisions IN Scotland.

I was astonished as the hall today slowly filled up today, and then every single seat was full. When Nicola said there were 4 overflow halls, I was amazed.

I likes the themes of social union and political union, and it’s important to realise the difference, and it yet again moves the reality of the referendum onwards, whilst Curtice and the BBC seem almost permanently stuck in a May 2011 timewarp, running over some of the really tired points that have been discussed already to the Nth degree.

The SNP are setting the agenda, and the detail of what independence will really mean are becoming clearer. The BBC and, surprisingly for a professor of politics, Curtice seem to be discussing aspects which are, how can we say, ‘so last year ago’.

Time for the media pundits to catch up. Scotland and the debate is moving on apace, and the MSM and BBC are starting to sound like they are quite out of touch.

Today I witnessed one of the great political leaders of our times, talk to a packed auditorium. It was a great day.


Incidentally, I watched the interview, albeit very short, with Alyn Smith, the SNP MEP, and I have to say, the SNP need to make much more use of him in interviews. He has a remarkably easy, convincing, straightforward manner of speaking. Very impressive.
 
 
#
mudfries
2012-03-10 22:36

A really fantastic speech, I hope everybody votes for the party that tells them what they CAN do, and not the partys that tell what they CANT do!
you did us proud again Mr Salmond.
 
 
#
Hing em high
2012-03-10 22:58

It was a good speech! I actually thought the one he did last year was better but well that is just my opinion, it was still better than anything we will get from the Unionists.

What made this good was that he made direct reference to the Local Elections. I cant remember that in the Rennie or Lament speeches, actually I dont remember getting to the end of either of those before I fell into a catatonic state.
 
 
#
.Scot
2012-03-10 23:18

And what have the BBC taken from the SNP conference?

“Independent Scotland would rely on UK for Bailouts say’s Deputy First Minister!”

If the BBC continue to class the Scots as insurrectionist  s then we should be paying the same licence funds as Eire.
 
 
#
605040
2012-03-10 23:36

Hi folks,
I want to ask a few things if I may
When we get independence why can’t we have our own bank, and notes printed without debt?
Will we get a referendum to vote for Europe or will it just be for the Euro?
And lastly why is the SNP going to keep [Unsubstantited allegation removed – NNS Mod Team] thieving companies ?
I hope someone can answer these questions
 
 
#
oldnat
2012-03-11 01:05

If you mean a central bank and our own currency, that is always a possibility, but in the context of the financial instability created by the weak regulation of banks by many governments, a sterling union seems the safest option at the moment.

The SNP government’s policy is to keep sterling for now, but if (at some future point) the euro seems a better idea, to have a referendum on leaving sterling and joining the euro.

If a future Scottish government felt that leaving the EU made sense, then that would probably be put to the Scottish people in a referendum.

It is not SNP policy to support companies which break the law. In an independent Scotland, our Parliament will set the laws.
 

 
#
J Wil
2012-03-11 00:02

Loved seeing Nicola slap down oor Glenn, with out altering her step, as she passed him.
 
 
#
Legerwood
2012-03-11 00:54

Yes I noticed that too on the News.
 
 
#
dogcollar
2012-03-11 12:54

awe ah missed that
 

 
#
RTP
2012-03-11 00:29

What a sick man this is.


The Nats can’t keep rumbles of discontent silent for ever

The party’s rank and file will stay on message today, but Alex Salmond’s allies could cause problems for him in the futur



By Alan Cochrane, Scottish Editor

We’ll hear a great deal today and tomorrow about the incredible election result achieved by the Nats at Holyrood last year but that was then and the party that gathers in Glasgow today isn’t having everything its own way now. Alex Salmond has been FORCED, by a pre-emptive strike by Prime Minister David Cameron and Scottish Secretary Michael Moore, to show his hand over his plan to break up Britain.
MY capitals.
 
 
#
daveniz
2012-03-11 00:35

[Publishing the same comment on multiple threads is “spamming” and against the moderation guidelines – NNS Mod Team]
 
 
#
Peter
2012-03-11 01:01

I had Clair Baker MSP at my door today. Said she was canvasing for the local elections.

I said I was a SNP supporter and she just said “oh” and went off next door.

I briefly thought about engaging in conversation with her but Alex was about start his speech, so it was no contest really.
 
 
#
lozzie
2012-03-11 01:35

Does NNS have anywhere specific to report BBC bias?

bbc.co.uk/…/…

“Sturgeon says an independent Scotland would have relied on UK for RBS bailout”

I thought the deputy FM made clear that in this hypothetical situation RBS (multinational bank) would be relient on a multinational bailout. No where did she say or imply that Scotland would have relied on the UK.

Ive complained to the BBC

Your message has been passed on, incidentally you can use the ‘contact us’ facility in the tool bar at the top of the page to tell us about anything you think may be of interest. – NNS Mod Team
 
 
#
Jiggsbro
2012-03-11 02:03

It seems to be a habit. Headlines bear little resemblance to the contents of the article and often imply that what they’ve invented is a quote (they do it again with “Scottish independence will ‘end poverty’, says Sturgeon” bbc.co.uk/…/…).

Either they have the worst sub-editors in the UK, or they’re deliberately trying to mislead the people who never get beyond the headline. To be honest, I don’t know if it’s anti-SNP bias, because I rarely trouble myself to read what other party’s politicians have been saying.
 

 
#
km
2012-03-11 05:04

Speech on YouTube, thanks to Moridura:

www.youtube.com/…/
 
 
#
Holebender
2012-03-11 05:24

Labour and LibDem conferences held in half-empty halls, even though people were bussed in from far and wide. SNP conference fills the venue and needs four overspill halls! That alone tells me which parties are in the ascendancy and which are demoralised and defeated.

Roll on 2014.
 
 
#
proudscot
2012-03-11 13:18

Quoting Holebender:

Labour and LibDem conferences held in half-empty halls, even though people were bussed in from far and wide. SNP conference fills the venue and needs four overspill halls! That alone tells me which parties are in the ascendancy and which are demoralised and defeated.

Roll on 2014.



Which makes me wonder, Holebender, exactly who the pollsters actually “poll”, when they produce figures which place the independence support at no higher than the low 40% level.

If, to use one of their favourite words, they “extrapolated” the relative attendances at the party conferences in Scotland, it seems to me the polls would be showing a 60-40 result FOR indepencence, rather than the opposite!

 

 
#
Saltire Groppenslosh
2012-03-11 07:09

I was one of the folk who ended up in an overspill hall. Even there the atmosphere was wonderful. What a brilliant day. I even got to meet the “guys” who run NNS. They sold me a T Shirt which I’ll wear proudly until it falls apart. Thanks again NNS. You are a great bunch of people.

In fact that’s my entire snapshot of the day, of a group of people coming together with one purpose and with a steady confidence to achieve that purpose. And I have every confidence that we’ll prevail and succeed.

I talked to Isabel Fraser straight after the First Eck’s speech and she was positively beaming. She laughed when I said that if I’d wanted a seat, I could have gone to the LibDem conference down south. I like Isabel and believe that she’s the only redeeming feature of the BBC. Yes, she sometimes give our chaps a hard time but you want to see what she does to the other guy. (:D)

I also saw big, burly Brian Taylor with a face like a skelped ar*e – lovely!

Glen Campbell was there too, ducking about looking for the elusive crack in the edifice which when he found there wasn’t any he no doubt fabicated after all was said and done.

But enough of the dissenting voices, I loved the whole conference experience and even went to one of the fringe events on “Victim Support” where Kenny MacAskill gave a speech and answered questions. I even managed to get a question in myself about minimum alcohol pricing. Kenny’s answer was down to earth and cut straight to the nub of the issue.

Everyone, I can honestly report that Scotland is in good safe hands. I look forward to the future with real hope in my heart.
 
 
#
curley bill
2012-03-11 10:39

I too was one of the many who approached the NNS stand to congratulate them on the great job they’re doing – I even had a pleasant young man explain the moderation policy. (Apparently it’s applied without fear or favour as he himself – a moderator – had a comment pulled!)
As for the Beeb, they really were out in force – Brian, Glennnn – Raymond Buchanan (who I didn’t realise is as tall as a lighthouse cos I always see him sitting down) Jamie McIvor, the fragrant Isabel et al.
As for the SNP Cabinet, they are so approachable – I spoke to Alex Neil, Nicola, Shona and John Swinney. They were quite happy to engage one-to-one and answer any questions. I also spoke to Kenny Gibson and what a no-nonsense guy he is.

And here’s a Richard Lochhead joke:

“Ed Milliband arrives in Glasgow and sees a guy selling twelve wee puppies.
‘Selling puppies?’ says Ed.
‘Aye, and they’re Labour puppies,’ says the guy.
‘Great stuff’ says Ed, and moves on.
A few weeks later Ed is back in Glasgow and sees the same guy selling two puppies.
‘Still selling puppies?’ says Ed.
‘Aye,’ says the guy, ‘And they’re SNP puppies!’
Ed’s shocked. ‘SNP? But they used to be Labour.’
‘Aye, but they’ve opened they’re eyes…’ says the guy.”

(Well, maybe you had to be there, but Richard had the room in stitches.)
 
 
#
Exile
2012-03-11 19:48

Thanks, Curley Bill. I certainly laughed at that one.
 

 
#
Macart
2012-03-11 08:38

I watched the whole programme yesterday top to bottom and came away convinced that this IS going to happen. The sheer polar difference between the SNP and the other parties is astonishing to behold. BBC pundits lined up to push the whole second question issue on the SNP as a get out of jail free clause and they held to message brilliantly.

One question preference, but the people of Scotland WILL decide how many questions. Not the SNP, not Westminster, THE PEOPLE. For the casual scanner of these pages, think for a moment on that. Can anyone really see any of the unionist parties, far less a united Westminster, actually handing over that amount of democracy and responsibility to the people?

The FMs speech was also very much on target. Clever, witty, positive and upbeat. What a difference from the moaning whining, dreadful stuff we’ve heard from Rennie and Lamont. When you see the delegates reactions and general mood, that’s a clue right there. They all sing from the same hymn sheet, their morale is high and there is determination writ on every face when interviewed.

Breath of fresh air to see such a positive, forward thinking team in charge.
 
 
#
UpSpake
2012-03-11 09:23

This is Alex Salmonds forte. He is absolutely superb at the sst piece speach. Caught only a few moments of it. If this is a standard he can aspire to what a shame he lets himself down when in front of a camera at interview. Two totally different images.
Am I the only one who notices this. Same with Nicola, very subservient in a studio, good at the lectern.
 
 
#
alicmurray
2012-03-11 10:25

I think in a studio they try to portray polite statesmanship which shows up to great effect the hectoring, bullying BBC presenters.
 
 
#
Suomi
2012-03-11 11:34

Upsake,my impression is that Alec Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon deal well with aggressive interviewing.When an interviewer is hostile to your postion,continu  ally interrupts and doesn’t listen to your answers,that is challenging.However Salmond and Sturgeon can hold their own.I have also been impressed by Mike Russel.
 

 
#
balbeggie
2012-03-11 10:13

this sounds very interesting but I suspect this will be behind the Sunday Times paywall – on twitter we have:

Jason Allardyce‏@#snp  conf #indyref 2 of world’s biggest firms tell SundayTimesScot  land independence holds no fear. Ceridian: Scotland wd be more competitive
 
 
#
J Wil
2012-03-11 13:12

Good article. I hope this quashes the myth about independence and the timing of the independence referendum being damaging to Scotland’s economy, showing it up for the bunkum it is.
 

 
#
Saltire Groppenslosh
2012-03-11 10:26

Upspake, I think your view of the two SNP leaders is a bit polarised.

There is no way that they would use the same sort of attack in a studio as on a lecturn.

Don’t mistake quiet confidence with subservience. I assure you that we are in safe hands. They wouldn’t adopt a bully-boy stance in an interview situation because as you know, if you crush an opponents argument, it only makes you look bad in the eyes of the voting public.

Each time I see you posting on here it seems that you want heads to roll. We might all secretly want that but it’s not the way to win the war.

I know that you, just like the majority of us on here, want independence. I also know that after we gain independence that you may pin your colours to another mast and that is your right, however, at the moment these people at the top of the SNP have carried us further in just a short while than anyone else has in recent history and it is largely due to their strategies and efforts that we are looking to vote on independence in less than a thousand days.

I hope they keep doing what they are doing in exactly the same way as they’ve been doing it because it’s successful and markedly successful. Roll on 2014.
 
 
#
curley bill
2012-03-11 10:54

I agree, although I do sympathise with UpSpake.
In the past I’ve wanted Nicola to lay aboot her on Question Time, or AS to let rip at the slithering Gary Robertson.
However, it was explained to me why they don’t – the view from HQ is that the Beeb and the rest of the MSM would like nothing better to display us Nationalists as foaming-mouthed, swivel-eyed fanatics and use any angry displays against us. So a united front of calm reasoned argument is the way to go, and I think they’re right.
Facts calmly and strongly presented will influence more undecideds than the likes of Cochrane’s unhinged rants.
 
 
#
tartanfever
2012-03-11 11:03

Yes, CB, thats what the MSM want precisely – ranting nats with which they can place their extremist labels.

There will be a time for stronger words, but they aren’t now. Let the press keep doing their job of recruiting more and more people to an SNP vote. Each time a unionist politician or media outlet comes up with another exaggerated story, more people get fed up with the rubbish being printed and said about our country. Over time this will backfire on them.
 
 
#
J Wil
2012-03-11 13:15

I think that is right. The BBC just want to provoke. When the boot is on the other foot they are not so reluctant to let go themselves. I’m thinking about Gordon Brewer’s apoplectic tantrums (blue lips) when he doesn’t get the answers he thinks he wants.

On the question of Curtice’s posturings. When is BBC Scotland going to realise that incessant Curtice calls doesn’t make for interesting viewing? out of two hours of programme I’m sure he had 30% to 40% of the camera work. Perhaps that is all their camera operators can aspire to. It must be pretty stressfull as they wait in anticipation of the next technical failure.
 

 
#
Mark
2012-03-11 10:30

Does anyone know where I can see the Interview with Nicola and Glen Campbell?
 
 
#
cynicalHighlander
2012-03-11 10:45

In two parts.: www.youtube.com/…/
 
 
#
Mark
2012-03-11 12:48

Thank you for the link.

I was after the interview nicola gave Glen Campbell yesterday.
 

 
#
call me dave
2012-03-11 11:06

Read some papers this morning and some commentators are not impressed!

Seems if you don’t like the message and the content you write a piece attacking what the ‘The First Eck’ looks like or what colour and year his tie is and ‘ . . Oh! His suit is crumpled.

No mention of the second question on the ballot or . . and so it goes on.


If they can’t see anything genuinely controversial then obscure and divert attention. What a waste of a newspaper page. The ‘Scottish’ Mail. Mr Macleod

No change there then.

Onwards and upwards .
 
 
#
Legerwood
2012-03-11 11:59

The Sunday herald and Scotland on Sunday both headlined the childcare proposals which is good given that we are about to go into local elections but I have not read the articles in depth yet. No doubt there will be barbed comments somewhere.

Jackie Baillie and blankets:

I did notice that the Sunday Herald printed a retraction on their Letters page about their claim last week that Ms Baillie had admitted that what she said about blankets shortage was wrong.
Ms Baillie had contacted them and said that she stood by what shwe said about the shortage and she had not withdrawn her statement.

So there you go.
 
 
#
Dundonian West
2012-03-11 13:13

Quoting Legerwood:

The Sunday herald and Scotland on Sunday both headlined the childcare proposals which is good given that we are about to go into local elections but I have not read the articles in depth yet. No doubt there will be barbed comments somewhere.

Jackie Baillie and blankets:

I did notice that the Sunday Herald printed a retraction on their Letters page about their claim last week that Ms Baillie had admitted that what she said about blankets shortage was wrong.
Ms Baillie had contacted them and said that she stood by what shwe said about the shortage and she had not withdrawn her statement.

So there you go.



I don’t beleeeeve it!
Can we no have a whip round to buy these blinkin blankets?
Mercy!

 
 
#
J Wil
2012-03-11 13:25

Scotland on Sunday has gone with the lies again.

Why doesn’t the Health Board sue her?
 

 
#
cjmjr
2012-03-11 11:19

I watched it all on iplayer my impression from the unionists pundits is that the Snp will take seats from Labour the question in despute is the number of seats, few or many depending on the swing, they are suggesting a swing of just two or two and a half percent but the swing during the last election was more than seven percent, in essence its all to play for.
 
 
#
Highland Tiger
2012-03-11 11:34

Alex’s “Message of Hope” speech reminds me of Winston Churchill, he was the right leader at the right time for Britain, and in a way, Alex is Scotland’s modern day equivalent.

We need a strong leader at this time to deliver our freedom, and Alex with speeches like this is the man to do it.

He is miles ahead of any opposition leader, and the Scottish? Labour Party Political broadcast on Friday really emphasised how poor the opposition actually are, even in a controlled environment, Lamont was totally uninspiring. How anybody could vote for her and London Labour is beyond me. Hopefully this speech will convert any doubters.

Comment edited by NNS Mod Team
 
 
#
Dundonian West
2012-03-11 12:19

“The truth is, the fault lies with the SNP because even in times of plenty, they (SNP) have underfunded the NHS”.
Jackie Baillie,Scottis  h Labour,at their Dundee conference.

Jackie,when were those times of plenty?

Give me the Glasgow speeches any day,and consign the Dundee speeches to where they belong.
 

 
#
MajorBloodnok
2012-03-11 12:10

A few people criticising Prof. Curtice here (I didn’t see any live conference coverage though, apart from afterwards – that packed venue looked absolutely amazing!). However, I just happened to catch part of the UK Scottish Affairs Committee (chair I. Davidson MP) of 7 March “in relation to its inquiry on The Referendum on Separation (sic) for Scotland”.

Witnesses were:

Professor Vernon Bogdanor (London)
Professor Iain McLean (Oxford)
Professor John Curtice, (Strathclyde)
Peter Kellner (YouGov)

Very interesting because they basically were putting Iain Davidson in his place about the “loaded” question (no problem with it), who gets to run the referendum (Scottish Government they all agreed), who gets to vote, what would happen afterwards, the importance of an amicable and negotiated split, etc. The witnesses all agreed that the Scottish Government was going about it in a reasonable and workable way.

Davidson was very exercised that Scots domiciled in England or elsewhere wouldn’t get to vote but that Eastern Europeans living in Scotland would – he said he was worried that as they were recently free of Soviet rule they would be keen on Independence in general. Curtice looked at him like he was an idiot and just shot him down pointing out that most ‘foreigners’ in Scotland would think it was none of their business.

Just to note that Prof Iain McLean is certainly one to watch as he wasn’t letting Davidson off the hook at all.

Davidson was getting somewhat miffed that he wasn’t hearing the answers he expected/wanted (he looked redder than ever), that’s for sure. He implied that it was within the committee’s remit to ignore evidence that they didn’t like. Cue skewed report.

The transcript doesn’t appear to be available (yet) but it would make interesting reading.
 
 
#
admiral
2012-03-11 13:48

Quoting MajorBloodnok:

A few people criticising Prof. Curtice here (I didn’t see any live conference coverage though, apart from afterwards – that packed venue looked absolutely amazing!). However, I just happened to catch part of the UK Scottish Affairs Committee (chair I. Davidson MP) of 7 March “in relation to its inquiry on The Referendum on Separation (sic) for Scotland”.

Witnesses were:

Professor Vernon Bogdanor (London)
Professor Iain McLean (Oxford)
Professor John Curtice, (Strathclyde)
Peter Kellner (YouGov)

Very interesting because they basically were putting Iain Davidson in his place about the “loaded” question (no problem with it), who gets to run the referendum (Scottish Government they all agreed), who gets to vote, what would happen afterwards, the importance of an amicable and negotiated split, etc. The witnesses all agreed that the Scottish Government was going about it in a reasonable and workable way.

Davidson was very exercised that Scots domiciled in England or elsewhere wouldn’t get to vote but that Eastern Europeans living in Scotland would – he said he was worried that as they were recently free of Soviet rule they would be keen on Independence in general. Curtice looked at him like he was an idiot and just shot him down pointing out that most ‘foreigners’ in Scotland would think it was none of their business.

Just to note that Prof Iain McLean is certainly one to watch as he wasn’t letting Davidson off the hook at all.

Davidson was getting somewhat miffed that he wasn’t hearing the answers he expected/wanted (he looked redder than ever), that’s for sure. He implied that it was within the committee’s remit to ignore evidence that they didn’t like. Cue skewed report.

The transcript doesn’t appear to be available (yet) but it would make interesting reading.



Was the 1998 devolution referendum closed to “foreigners” living in Scotland at the time and open to Scots living in England?

 
 
#
MajorBloodnok
2012-03-11 23:16

I think I’m correct in saying that the 1998 referendum was for people domiciled in Scotland, including EU nationals (which is what I meant) only, so Scots living in England didn’t get to vote. This is the same as the same as the proposals for the 2014 referendum.

The four professors were of the view the same approach was reasonable and should be the one taken – basically because it gets very complicated if people have been moving around, particularly if they move shortly before the referendum itself.
 

 
#
banditti
2012-03-11 12:27

What a contrast between snp and the rest. I can’t wait to wake up in a free independent Scotland
 
 
#
Dundonian West
2012-03-11 12:29

MajorBloodnok.Many thanks for that info.Enlightening,as I tend to ignore the ‘small print’.

Your above post is much appreciated.
 
 
#
J Wil
2012-03-11 13:30

I can’t see that the Commons committee has any credibility left. They need to eject their chairman to get back any respect from the public. Davidson can’t control his inner urges. He comes across as a manipulative ignoramus.
 

 
#
Marga B
2012-03-11 12:37

It’s great to hear about the 5 million pound package for youth unemployment and 10 million for sports facilities. I don’t know if people have seen Seb Coe’s article about using Barcelona as a model for the Olympics (this is not as OT as it sounds). The article is a bit long, so I’ll put extracts here and comment on it in the next post:

OLYMPICS. THE PRAISE OF A LEGEND OF SPORT
Coe: “I do not hide, Barcelona was our best example”

HERITAGE “Barcelona is the best legacy of the history of the Games. The city changed its face, created a 70% more green space, was opened to the sea, created affordable housing and transformed its economy. Before 92, Barcelona was not even in the top 16 tourist destinations in Europe, and is now among the top four, “she said Coe, who has placed the Olympic legacy also prioritize the London-2012. “75% of the facilities will be for the future, along with an entire neighborhood in east London 10 years ago when we saw it full of landfills and scrap, we could not even imagine how it could hold all the Olympic Park now has risen there, without departing from the budget and deadlines,”said Coe, who acknowledged that it was also inspired by the Barcelona experience. “So I came first of all to Barcelona to see Maragall and Samaranch. I was very interested in terms of urban regeneration and heritage and how the city not only prompted an infrastructure project for six years but that project is still in force “.

So now we organize the Games, we should not talk only about hotels, infraestucturas and transport, but the inspiration of the Games pose for young people to do sport. Take the kids to the sport and change the city through the Games are the two goals we have set, “added Coe.
 
 
#
Marga B
2012-03-11 12:42

The Barcelona Games were the biggest urban developoment ever in the city, with eye-watering re-valuation of land, huge profits made for developers and speculators, massive evictions of the poor from their seaside homes, and the city’s transport system was transformed, with Olympic cash even funding the re-introduction of trams.

You will note that this is Seb Coe’s aim for the London games, and that the rest of the country is paying for this. I presume there are Barnett consequences.

But I have something else to report. At my first bold quote “75% of the facilities will be for the future“, yesterday the sentence went on to say “including a hospital and a school“. For some reason that has disappeared today. Did someone censor this information as untrue, or was it true but inconvenient to say so?

It would be nice to know.
 
 
#
exel
2012-03-11 12:44

From Mr. Salmonds speech: “Because home rule with independence beats Tory rule from Westminster any time and any day.”

Home rule is the power of a constituent part (administrative division) of a state to exercise such of the state’s powers of governance within its own administrative area that have been devolved to it by the central government.

Up to this point the speech followed the usual path of a political party. I notice no poster has commented on this so far.

Was it a slip of the tongue or was it a deliberate ploy by “crafty” Mr. Salmond to again muddy the waters of the debate?

I can understand “Self determination” with Independence as the route to that end. But we already have Home Rule under its accepted definition (Devolution).
 
 
#
jafurn
2012-03-11 12:47

Maybe he meant ‘rule from home ‘ with Independence rather than rule from elsewhere (westminster)
Just a thought?
 
 
#
exel
2012-03-11 13:00

jafurn 2012-03-11 12:47
Maybe he meant ‘rule from home ‘ with Independence rather than rule from elsewhere (westminster)
Just a thought?

“AYE” and as they say in Glasgow “Ma hied disnea button up the back”
 
 
#
Exile
2012-03-11 20:00

Rubbish, exel. There’s no copyright on the definition of the expression ‘home rule’. AS was clearly using it in the everyday sense of ruling your own country. Hence his expression ‘home rule with Independence’ is perfectly cogent and cannot possibly be interpreted as ‘crafty’ or muddying the waters of the debate’. You think too much, and none too clearly in my opinion.
 

 
#
jaguar
2012-03-11 13:26

Exel

You seem to have missed the next sentence from Wkipedia.

In the United Kingdom, it has traditionally referred to self-government, or devolution or independence, of constituent nations (namely Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland), and at one point Ireland.

The words “or independence” make clear the context.
 
 
#
Jiggsbro
2012-03-11 13:32

Quoting exel:

But we already have Home Rule under its accepted definition (Devolution).



Lord Wallace disagrees.

guardian.co.uk/…/… (“The Liberal Democrats are planning to make “home rule” for Scotland one of their key policies at the next general election if Alex Salmond’s quest for independence is defeated at the referendum, party sources have revealed”)

I suspect that this was not a slip of the tongue, nor an attempt to muddy the waters, but rather baiting a trap for the LibDems, who could reliably be predicted to object to the phrase.

 
 
#
exel
2012-03-11 13:46

Jiggsbro 2012-03-11 13:32
Quoting exel:
But we already have Home Rule under its accepted definition (Devolution).
Lord Wallace disagrees.

So Lord Wallace disagrees, he has every right to do so.

“I suspect that this was not a slip of the tongue, nor an attempt to muddy the waters, but rather baiting a trap for the LibDems, who could reliably be predicted to object to the phrase.”

So “baiting traps” for possible options for other political parties is not “muddying the waters of the debate?
 
 
#
Jiggsbro
2012-03-12 16:31

No, ‘baiting traps’ is not ‘muddying the waters’. Baiting traps does not obfuscate, but gives an (unwelcome) opportunity for clarification.
 

 
#
Exile
2012-03-11 20:03

Jiggsbro, I find it’s generally safer to make a critique of exel’s ‘points’ (see my post above) rather than accept them and try to give an alternative explanation. exel has an agenda, namely to portray the SNP as ‘devious politicians’ who cannot be trusted. It’s fantasyland stuff IMO.
 

 
#
tartanfever
2012-03-11 13:37

dear oh dear exel, what a desperate attempt to undermine a perfectly straight forward and understandable statement.
 
 
#
Exile
2012-03-11 20:05

Agreed 100%. Well said tartanfever.
 

 
#
admiral
2012-03-11 13:45

Quoting exel:

From Mr. Salmonds speech: “Because home rule with independence beats Tory rule from Westminster any time and any day.”

Home rule is the power of a constituent part (administrative division) of a state to exercise such of the state’s powers of governance within its own administrative area that have been devolved to it by the central government.

Up to this point the speech followed the usual path of a political party. I notice no poster has commented on this so far.

Was it a slip of the tongue or was it a deliberate ploy by “crafty” Mr. Salmond to again muddy the waters of the debate?

I can understand “Self determination” with Independence as the route to that end. But we already have Home Rule under its accepted definition (Devolution).



I understood the phrase as a counterpoint to the anti-independence brigade, who promise “home rule” as if it offers really meaningful power, but actually means control of all the important levers of power remaining at Westminster (Enoch Powell – power devolved is power retained). Remember, Westminster can reverse devolution any time it feels like.

What Alex was saying is that real home rule only comes with independence.

 
 
#
Barontorc
2012-03-11 13:46

It would help his understanding I’m sure, though frustratingly deny his nit-picking talents, if he were to take the First Minister of Scotland’s statement in context:-
He quotes from Mr. Salmond’s speech: “Because home rule with independence beats Tory rule from Westminster any time and any day.”

Then chooses to focus on “..home rule..”, conveniently forgetting to link it, as in an “..independent..” Scotland.

He then writes that “I notice no poster has commented on this so far.” – well maybe that’s because there’s nothing to notice!

He then, true to form, offers another pearl of wisdom – “..was it a slip of the tongue or was it a deliberate ploy by “crafty” Mr. Salmond to again muddy the waters of the debate?”

I suppose exel means some kind of comment by, “..”crafty” Mr Salmond..” – I just wish I knew what it was – it looks awfy like another attack of bile!

Comment edited by NNS Mod
 
 
#
Exile
2012-03-11 20:06

In a nutshell!
 

 
#
exel
2012-03-11 12:57

Another interesting article in the Herald today “How the Austro-Hungarian Empire could be blueprint for Scotland’s future” Exclusive By Tom Gordon Sunday 11 March 2012.
 
 
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Marga B
2012-03-11 13:38

Surely this article just proposes federalism?
 
 
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exel
2012-03-11 14:49

Marga B 2012-03-11 13:38
Surely this article just proposes federalism?

Of course it does Marga, is that a problem?

If the polls are to be believed a majority of Scots do not wish to leave the union, they wish the way we are governed within the union to be changed.

The UK does not have a Written Constitution and as a result we live in a Party Dictatorship. A Written Constitution for a Federal State would solve the problem.
 
 
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ScotInNotts
2012-03-11 15:00

Of course it would depend on what remained federal and what would be the provence of the individual comprising nations. On the face of it a federal option does appeal, however the devil would be in the detail. Assuming foreign policy for instance would still be federal, the political elite at Westminster’s stance on such issues are a polar opposite to the majority of ordinary Scots. Instead of pretending to play the part of a world power, spending vast amounts of our resources keeping up with the Jones’s, when all we really do is appear to the world as wanting to eb the cool kids pal, we should conduct ourself like the majority of the other sovereign nations of the world through the international bodies of the UN, and within Europe the EU.

Ultimately Scots priorities can always be subverted by our larger neighbour in a democratic federal union; that I fear is what overwhelmingly causes a federal solution to fall down.

That is unless Scotland, England, Wales & NI get one vote each on such matters. Good luck getting the Westminster elite to agree to that, or even the unbalanced federal solution for that matter, too much loss of power and control for their liking I suspect.
 
 
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exel
2012-03-11 15:14

ScotInNotts 2012-03-11 15:00
“Ultimately Scots priorities can always be subverted by our larger neighbour in a democratic federal union; that I fear is what overwhelmingly causes a federal solution to fall down.”

You are of course correct SIN. I think that could be corrected by having regional governments (not the states Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland) and a federal government.

But you would need to read the full proposal from the Constitutional Commission when it is published?
 
 
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ScotInNotts
2012-03-11 15:19

I’d welcome reading what the Constitutional Commission has to say on a proposed federal UK. However, as I have stated already I would be sceptical on how a unified foreign and defence policy could be constructed which reflects the views of each of the contituent nations; which I maintain are at odds with each other.
 
 
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Marga B
2012-03-11 17:53

A workable federal arrangement including component parts of Scotland and the 10 x bigger rUK? And that’s if the UK agreed to let itself be federated. A verty big “if”.

Or maybe England will agree to regionalise itself to make the federation fairer. Hm.
 
 
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exel
2012-03-11 18:32

Marga B 2012-03-11 17:53
“Or maybe England will agree to regionalise itself to make the federation fairer. Hm.”

Even if you do not accept that it would be possible to persuade the “English Parties”. It would be, IMHO, possible to persuade the UK electorate.

See my post to ScotInNotts above which deals with the 10X bigger.
 

 
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exel
2012-03-11 18:16

ScotInNotts 2012-03-11 15:19
“I’d welcome reading what the Constitutional Commission has to say on a proposed federal UK. However, as I have stated already I would be sceptical on how a unified foreign and defence policy could be constructed which reflects the views of each of the contituent nations; which I maintain are at odds with each other.”

As I said in my earlier post: “I think that could be corrected by having regional governments (not the states Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland) and a federal government.”

I have not seen the Constitutional Commissions proposal, but it is surely worth debate by the Scottish people before 2014.
 
 
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Marga B
2012-03-11 18:54

There’s not a lot of point in the Scottish people talking about regional government for England and the rest, though, is there.

The CC has as part of its remit to “Clarify the constitutional implications of various forms of relationship between Scotland and the other countries of the UK”, not “various forms of the UK”.
 

 
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snowthistle
2012-03-11 18:14

Is there any demand for federal government in England?
 

 
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Jiggsbro
2012-03-11 14:47

Quoting exel:

“How the Austro-Hungarian Empire could be blueprint for Scotland’s future”



Remind me; what happened to the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

 
 
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exel
2012-03-11 14:59

Jiggsbro 2012-03-11 14:47
Quoting exel:
“How the Austro-Hungarian Empire could be blueprint for Scotland’s future”
Remind me; what happened to the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

If you have read the article you already know. Being “Coy” does not become you.

The principle however does have merit as a route to self determination. “Secure autonomy”
You will remember?

Self-determination is the principle in international law that nations have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or external interference. The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, or what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or even full assimilation. Neither does it state what the delimitation between nations should be — or even what constitutes a nation. In fact, there are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination. Moreover, self-determination is just one of many principles applied to determining international borders.

The key phrase is:” whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or even full assimilation.
 
 
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cokynutjoe
2012-03-11 15:28

Did Hungary get left with the Weapons of Mass Destruction by any chance?

Sacher Torte anybody?
 
 
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Jiggsbro
2012-03-12 16:35

It’s not ‘coyness’, exel, it’s Socratic rhetoric. The Austro-Hungarian empire broke up because its constituent nations sought independence. It’s not a blueprint for Scotland’s future. It’s an analogy of Scotland’s past.
 

 
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Dundonian West
2012-03-11 13:45

O/T.JOIN SNP.Just in case we forget!

my.snp.org/join

Stop the Union,I want to get off.
 
 
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amfraeembro
2012-03-11 13:48

Isobel Fraser kept pressing AS on Sunday Politics about how Scotland would need to exercise fiscal responsibility and operate a stability pact within the Sterling zone.
I’m getting fed up with this line of questioning – was she suggesting that an independent Scotland should arrange its fiscal affairs in an irresponsible manner?
AS kept referring to the Bank of England. As that institution is equally the Central Bank of Scotland I think he would do better to refer to it as such, or at least as the Central bank of the UK.
In any case, were Scotland to set up its own central bank, surely it also would insist on similarly responsible economic policies.
 
 
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Mark
2012-03-11 14:06

I thought she did not undrestand what she was talking about!
 

 
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exel
2012-03-11 13:54

jaguar 2012-03-11 13:26
Exel
You seem to have missed the next sentence from Wkipedia.
“In the United Kingdom, it has traditionally referred to self-government, or devolution or independence, of constituent nations (namely Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland), and at one point Ireland.”
The words “or independence” make clear the context.

Scottish Home Rule
Main article: History of Scottish devolution
In a similar fashion to Ireland, supporters of Home Rule in Scotland have historically desired greater levels of devolved governance within the United Kingdom. Although the term Home Rule has been largely superseded by ‘devolution’, the Home Rule movement can be seen as the forerunner to the creation of the current devolved Scottish Parliament.
Administrative devolution was granted to Scotland, with the creation of the Scottish Office, in the late 19th century. In the mid-20th century, the Home Rule movement became significant, campaigning for a Scottish Assembly. Between 1947 and 1950, the Scottish Covenant, a petition requesting a Scottish legislature within the UK, received over two million signatures. It was not until 1979 that devolution entered the political sphere – the Scottish devolution referendum, 1979 was held, failing to meet the required threshold. In 1999, due to the success of a second referendum, the Scottish Parliament was created.
 
 
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ScotInNotts
2012-03-11 14:21

Fundamental principal:

Westminster cannot and will not ever have Scotland, Scots or their interest as their sole and first priority; Holyrood can and does.

Ergo, the more powers up to and including indpendence that Holyrood has the better it is for the Scottish populace.

wrt international relations, what do we gain as the UK from having a permanent UN security council seat and veto over EU legislation as opposed to another similar country of size, say Denmark, Norwau or the Netherlands? Apart from being seen as the lapdog of the US on foreign policy and sidelined at times from the rest of Europe i.e. France and Germany, what do we get for the exorbitant sums of money ploughed into our defence budget, which is their not only for necessary defence purposes but to continue to play the part of a world power.

wrt oil and the Scottish economy relying on this resource: We are currently taking steps to insure that our nations economy does not have to rely on this resource, something which 65+ years of Westminster government, amongst many other social failings, neglected to address. Also, I’m opent to correction, but my understanding was that the scarcer a resource the greater it’s value. The “oil is running out” is a worldwide reality, therefore requirng switches to alternate energy (got that covered) but at the same time making our oil assets ever more valuable.
 
 
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cokynutjoe
2012-03-11 15:44

Labour had “Home Rule” on the menu for Scotland for the best part of a century and did nothing about it!
 
 
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lumilumi
2012-03-11 19:24

Been away most of the weekend, X-country skiing (best time of the year for it here in Finland, an independent country of 5m), and trying to catch up on all the action from the SNP conference – huge thank you to everybody, even the BBC, who’ve posted clips & written reports.

What an inspiring event the conference seemed to be, four overspill halls! Not like the Lab or Lib conferences, where speeches were delayed because they tried to usher people into the front of the one and only hall to make it look well-attended!

Another inspiring, positive speech from AS, he really is an excellent public speaker. Some light relief (thanking the UK PM for a surge in SNP membership, panda asylum) but mostly factual, listing what the SNP has done and will do for Scottish people, contrasting it with what the anti-independence parties have, or have not done for Scotland – no need to say what they will do for Scotland because it’s sweet F all. AS outlined, once again, a positive vision for Scotland – contrast that with the anti-independence parties, which have NO vision.

Understandably, the speech was a bit geared towards the local elections, especially capturing the ‘crown jewel’ of GCC, but as to the rest of the UK, it was conciliatory and mature. I especially noticed AS’s use of the phrase ‘our friends in England’ (or was it ‘English friends’?) Not a foaming-at-the-mouth rabid ScotNat in sight, just a dignified, reasonable argument for a people who want self-determination like most countries in the world.

I also watched Brian Taylor’s webchat with Nicola Sturgeon. What a contrast to the one with Johann Lamont a week earlier! (I have to confess I haven’t been masochistic enough to watch BT’s webchat with Willie Rennie!)

Where do I begin?
Well, the ‘set’. La Lamentable’s chat seemed to come from some stuffy old Soviet-style hotel with it’s bobbly armchair, heavy, dirty-coloured curtains behind her… The set for Nicola’s chat was modern and light and airy. (Who chose the set in each case? The BBC could surely be accused of an SNP bias if they chose it!)
But most importantly, wee Nicola expertly answered the questions, giving facts and explaining her party’s policies. Compare that to la Lamentable rambling on about her obsessions (SNP bad, Alex Salmond bad, we are the people’s party yadda-yadda), not a clear policy in sight.

I’m a big fan of Nicola Sturgeon, she’s so knowlegeable, reasonable and personable. Imagine, say, 2020, Nicola Sturgeon, Prime Minister of Scotland!
 
 
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mealer
2012-03-11 20:44

Excellent conference.
 
 
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the wallace
2012-03-12 09:51

Great conference snp,keep up the good work,i think that the unionists latest points of attack on the snp aided by the msm are ties to murdoch and NI,and economic control via the bank of england.
 

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