Newsnet Main Articles
Saturday, 17 March 2012 02:02
86 Comments
By Martin Kelly
Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore has been ridiculed after demanding to know details of taxes in an independent Scotland.
SNP MP Stewart Hosie pointed out that the Lib Dem MP was calling for answers on tax for an independent Scotland when he didn’t even know what the tax policy of his own UK coalition was going to be next week.
Mr Hosie was responding after comments by Mr Moore at a conference for the Scottish Council for Development & Industry in St Andrews where the UK Minister had called for “clarity” over taxes “in an independent Scotland”.
Describing the demands as a “blunder” the Scottish National Party’s Westminster Treasury Spokesperson said:
“This is a blunder by Michael Moore – he doesn’t even know what UK tax rates will be next Wednesday, so his latest contribution to the Tory-led anti-independence campaign is singularly ill-timed.
“The Tory Chancellor George Osborne is widely reported to be scrapping the top rate of income tax for the richest people in next week’s Budget – a move which the Lib Dem Treasury Chief Secretary has described as ‘in cloud cuckoo land’!”
Mr Hosie’s claim was a reference to an interview given by Mr Moore’s Lib Dem colleague, Treasury Chief Danny Alexander, who said last July when asked if there were plans to scrap the 50p top rate of tax:
“The idea that we’re going to somehow shift our focus to the wealthiest in the country at a time when everyone’s under pressure is just in cloud cuckoo land,”
Mr Hosie contrasted Mr Moore’s pre-budget remarks with those of the First Minister Alex Salmond, who has urged the UK Government to “to unlock access to finance for small and medium sized businesses across Scotland” after it emerged that the much vaunted ‘Project Merlin’ had lent less than 5% to Scottish businesses.
Project Merlin is a scheme set up by the coalition involving the four major high street banks that is supposed to see a curb in banker bonuses and prioritise lending to small and medium sized businesses.
Mr Hosie added:
“It’s a pity that Mr Moore was unable to address this vital issue, which is the clear responsibility of the Tory/Lib Dem coalition.
“We know from the Government Expenditure & Revenue Scotland figures (GERS) that, last year alone, Scotland was in a stronger financial position than the UK as a whole to the tune of nearly £2.7 billion – or £510 for every man, woman and child in Scotland.
“And we also know that the Scottish Government has modelled the benefits of having a 20 per cent rate of corporation tax in Scotland, compared to the UK’s planned rate of 23 per cent – which would create 27,000 more jobs in the Scottish economy in the medium to longer term.
“Compared to the leaden, negative arguments of the Tories and other anti-independence parties, this is the information and these are the arguments that can and will win the referendum in autumn 2014.”
Comments
#
2012-03-17 02:17
Herman Munster has been again found out. And this guy is the Scottish Secretary of State. I do wish he would shut up but then again his histrionics are a benefit to the SNP
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2012-03-17 02:54
This from a man who wanted the post of Scottish Secretary abolished until he was offered the job.
That for me says enough about his judgement.
That for me says enough about his judgement.
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2012-03-17 07:25
This seems to be the norm just now for unionists asking questions they know there really isn’t an answer for. We could say one thing now only for 3 years down the line everything has changed due to circumstances outside of our control. Obviously days after independence is achieved the situation tax wise would be roughly the same as before until the government settled into its new role. Of course unionists like to paint a picture that is always full of doom and despair.
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2012-03-17 07:42
Who knows what the future tax policy will be of any independent nation in the future,or which party will be making the decisions? Moore might as well ask what the furure tax policies might be of Finland,Norway, Denmark,or Ireland.At best it would be speculation based on old data and speculation about the economic conditions.We never know how the economic circumstance will change.For example,I hear that oil has now been discovered off the Irish coast near Cork.
To be honest,I tend to ignore anything said by Mr Moore.I have been convinced for a long time that he is out of his depth.
To be honest,I tend to ignore anything said by Mr Moore.I have been convinced for a long time that he is out of his depth.
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2012-03-17 08:39
Moore alongside his other numpty Alexander is a side show spouting total rubbish for the MSM and the BBC to repeat ad nausium.
The man, his position and his stupid questions are a total irrelevence to the people of Scotland. When he has the chance he talks Scotland down and presumably also does this alongside Beaker at the UK Cabinet.
In other countries their chances of survival would be limited. Why do Scots put up with this colonial drivel ?.
The man, his position and his stupid questions are a total irrelevence to the people of Scotland. When he has the chance he talks Scotland down and presumably also does this alongside Beaker at the UK Cabinet.
In other countries their chances of survival would be limited. Why do Scots put up with this colonial drivel ?.
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2012-03-17 08:49
O/T but interesting
uk.news.yahoo.com/…/
It seems from some of the comments that this could help break up the UK with a growing anti SE of England mentality.
uk.news.yahoo.com/…/
It seems from some of the comments that this could help break up the UK with a growing anti SE of England mentality.
#
2012-03-17 10:02
From the article:
“It another move, North Sea oil firms are to be offered guarantees of long-term tax breaks for decommissioning old rigs in a bid to encourage billions of pounds of investment.”
Long term eh? I expect the enemies of an independent Scotland will try to claim that anything long term might be undone by an independent Scottish government.
… but we will not forget that the UK government has been totally unreliable in terms of taxing Scotland’s oil.
“It another move, North Sea oil firms are to be offered guarantees of long-term tax breaks for decommissioning old rigs in a bid to encourage billions of pounds of investment.”
Long term eh? I expect the enemies of an independent Scotland will try to claim that anything long term might be undone by an independent Scottish government.
… but we will not forget that the UK government has been totally unreliable in terms of taxing Scotland’s oil.
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2012-03-17 11:15
Long term for Westminster is no longer than a few years at best.Then we will have the uncertainties of what state the UK finances will then be in and whether we have a new government in London with new policies.
So many uncertainties.
So many uncertainties.
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2012-03-17 10:09
It may cost more to live in the south east of England. .. but all that means is people there are forced to pay more for their main asset, their house. That effectively forces them to build their asset. When the time comes to leave that part of England they are in a stronger position in terms of wealth than people in other part of the UK.
If public sector workers are paid more, people in the rest of the UK will be in yet another way subsidising the people in the south east of England.
If public sector workers are paid more, people in the rest of the UK will be in yet another way subsidising the people in the south east of England.
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2012-03-17 09:14
2 votes Moore spends so much of his time cosying up to his buddy Cameron, putting down Scotland, scaremongering and promoting the unionist drivel that he has forgotten where his constituency is. He will probably go down as the first Scottish Secretary who failed to deliver any significant business/jobs for his area, which is no surprise if he is telling prospective employers not to invest in Scotland as its to risky in case we become independent.
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2012-03-17 09:35
Small countries have the option of introducing flat tax. Estonia for instance has done so very successfully. It makes tax understandable, easy to collect and virtually impossible to avoid.
Now if the SNP were to tell Mr Moore they were planning a similar move Mr Moore would have kittens!
Now if the SNP were to tell Mr Moore they were planning a similar move Mr Moore would have kittens!
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2012-03-17 09:42
I agree 100%. I am presently a non-res (liking / working in the Balkans) and they have a flat 10% rate (Macedonia) on ALL income with no exemptions, and very limited tax off-setting expenditure, and no personal allowances. Easy to collect, and easy to monitor.
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2012-03-17 10:10
Quoting Big Eye:
Another SDA policy!
Small countries have the option of introducing flat tax.
Another SDA policy!
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2012-03-17 18:04
Flat tax is just another way cutting tax for the wealthiest in society thats why the rich love the idea, the poll tax was a flat tax.. So try not to fall for the hype
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2012-03-18 06:34
The poll tax was a fixed fee. A flat tax is generally understood to be a fixed percentage rate which is charged on all income without exemptions or allowances.
It may well cut tax for the wealthiest, but it definitely simplifies the system so there is less scope for avoidance and a considerable reduction in administration costs and general bureaucracy. Imagine how much cheaper income tax would be for everybody if we didn’t have to pay the massive overheads of the tax collection system! I have read that almost half of all income tax collected is used on administering the system. Imagine if all that waste was cut out, we could have the same level of services for half the income tax we pay now, or much improved services without having an increased tax burden.
It may well cut tax for the wealthiest, but it definitely simplifies the system so there is less scope for avoidance and a considerable reduction in administration costs and general bureaucracy. Imagine how much cheaper income tax would be for everybody if we didn’t have to pay the massive overheads of the tax collection system! I have read that almost half of all income tax collected is used on administering the system. Imagine if all that waste was cut out, we could have the same level of services for half the income tax we pay now, or much improved services without having an increased tax burden.
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2012-03-18 16:50
The poll tax was not a flat tax. The rich hate flat taxes as they can’t avoid them. Definitely the way forward for an Indy Scotland IMHO.
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2012-03-17 09:36
O/T a little. Has anyone seen this in the Huffington Post?
huffingtonpost.co.uk/…/…
It seems that labour are becoming more and more like their tory and liberal friends. In fact I didn’t know anyone under 18 received benefits? I’m a bit out of touch though.
huffingtonpost.co.uk/…/…
It seems that labour are becoming more and more like their tory and liberal friends. In fact I didn’t know anyone under 18 received benefits? I’m a bit out of touch though.
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2012-03-17 18:14
The Unionist parties are in compition to see who can be the nastiest right wing reactionaries and can bring about a Dickensian Britain the fastest.
Any working class person holding a New Labour party card should be having a serious look at themselves in the mirror to see how much tory blue rinse is appearing in their hair and get out from New Labour fast before they are singing Land of No Hope and Tory
Any working class person holding a New Labour party card should be having a serious look at themselves in the mirror to see how much tory blue rinse is appearing in their hair and get out from New Labour fast before they are singing Land of No Hope and Tory
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2012-03-17 09:40
Big Eye. The Flat Tax is core to the SDA’s Economy and Taxation policy. Check it out at www.scottishdemocraticalliance.org
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2012-03-17 10:18
If the SDA form the Government post independence, then they can of course implement such a policy.
Not really sure it is a vote winner, to tell people on the minimum wage they can pay the same rate of tax as those earning 80K or more a year.
I could be wrong, however.
Not really sure it is a vote winner, to tell people on the minimum wage they can pay the same rate of tax as those earning 80K or more a year.
I could be wrong, however.
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2012-03-18 16:52
Personal allowance of £20K tax free and 15% on EVERY last penny of ALL income thereafter. Most low paid would pay nothing & millionaires can’t avoid as no allowances.
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2012-03-17 10:26
What’s a flat tax, what would it replace and how much would it raise in Scotland? If we pay that tax – what tax drops out?
How would it proportionately leave the poorest in this country if everyone had to pay?
A new tax regime seems a good idea. Something needs to be done to stop the “legal” tax-avoiders.
How would it proportionately leave the poorest in this country if everyone had to pay?
A new tax regime seems a good idea. Something needs to be done to stop the “legal” tax-avoiders.
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2012-03-17 10:37
A flat rate tax would hit the poorest members of our society proportionately harder than the richest members. It is a regressive form of taxation and I would argue strongly against it.
A flat rate top up tax is what is being offered in the Scotland Bill.
A flat rate top up tax is what is being offered in the Scotland Bill.
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2012-03-18 16:55
No so. Currently the rich pay less tax proportionality . Under a flat tax with a high allowance up front they have nowhere to hide and revenues rise accordingly.
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2012-03-17 11:06
Quoting Barontorc:
In essence it is a flat (single) rate of income tax which everyone pays on every penny they earn. There are no allowances or deductions, and no changes in tax rates as earnings increase. If, say, the flat rate was 15%, a person earning 10k per annum would pay 1500 in tax, and a person earning 100k per annum would pay 15k in tax. It’s simple, and everyone knows exactly what their tax liability is.
What’s a flat tax
In essence it is a flat (single) rate of income tax which everyone pays on every penny they earn. There are no allowances or deductions, and no changes in tax rates as earnings increase. If, say, the flat rate was 15%, a person earning 10k per annum would pay 1500 in tax, and a person earning 100k per annum would pay 15k in tax. It’s simple, and everyone knows exactly what their tax liability is.
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2012-03-17 18:16
Flat tax is just another way cutting tax for the wealthiest in society thats why the rich love the idea, the poll tax was a flat tax..
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2012-03-18 06:55
See comment above re poll tax. You seem to think the tax system’s main purpose is to punish the rich. (The rich, I am sure, are always defined as people with more money than you have.) Taxes should be for funding government expenditure, not robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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2012-03-17 10:43
A flat tax rate has practical benefits in terms of collection, but what if you earn a lot and wish to pay higher taxes because of that?
I pay increasingly larger amounts of tax, both business and income. I am happy that the more income I receive, the more tax I pay; I consider it my contribution to society. It is who I am paying my tax too (Gideon and chums) and how it is distributed (to build shiny new stuff like big train sets etc for London/the SE) I have issues with.
If I had seen evidence that low income tax rates for high earners made for a successful country, I might be persuaded that this was a good idea. However, I know of no country where this is clearly the case. Rather, it seems too little or too much taxation are both unhealthy long-term. Instead, those countries favouring more progressive taxation (a centrist approach), balancing right and left economics as appropriate, generally have the highest GDP per capita, lowest levels of inequality, highest standards of living, lower crime rates etc and ‘happier’ populations.
This makes for interesting reading for those wishing to delve a little deeper into taxation.
pubs.aeaweb.org/…/…
The Case for a Progressive Tax: From Basic Research to Policy Recommendations
Journal of Economic Perspectives—Vo lume 25, Number 4—Fall 2011—Pages 165–190
One only needs to look at the USA to know strongly right-wing economics are a disaster (families with children living in tent cities, 10’s of thousands dying every year unnecessarily, a country drowning in debt, the most expensive healthcare in the world yet no better life expectancy etc), but then full on socialism/approaching communism has never proven to be a success either. Why? Well these would only succeed if that is what everyone desired and worked happily for. That is of course impossible as within any society we have a broad spectrum of people with differing views on how that society should operate. If someone believes (enforced) neo-liberalism will be a roaring success, they are simply deluded; likewise communism. The only possible solution for success it thus somewhere in the centre; with the final position of that centre being defined by the socio-economic politics of the electorate of the country in question. This of course also requires representative democracy (e.g. PR); again something characteristic of the most successful western social democracies. For without PR, balance is almost impossible to achieve. The downward spiral of the UK is testament to that. Historically the UK gets governments that most people did not vote for (democracy?), ultimately creating the dysfunctional state we see today. The term ‘strong government’ used by advocates of FPTP is of course ‘dictatorial government’ with a dusting of icing sugar. Dictatorial governments always result in rebellion and eventual state collapse, be they too socialist or neo-liberal, too authoritarian or libertarian.
I pay increasingly larger amounts of tax, both business and income. I am happy that the more income I receive, the more tax I pay; I consider it my contribution to society. It is who I am paying my tax too (Gideon and chums) and how it is distributed (to build shiny new stuff like big train sets etc for London/the SE) I have issues with.
If I had seen evidence that low income tax rates for high earners made for a successful country, I might be persuaded that this was a good idea. However, I know of no country where this is clearly the case. Rather, it seems too little or too much taxation are both unhealthy long-term. Instead, those countries favouring more progressive taxation (a centrist approach), balancing right and left economics as appropriate, generally have the highest GDP per capita, lowest levels of inequality, highest standards of living, lower crime rates etc and ‘happier’ populations.
This makes for interesting reading for those wishing to delve a little deeper into taxation.
pubs.aeaweb.org/…/…
The Case for a Progressive Tax: From Basic Research to Policy Recommendations
Journal of Economic Perspectives—Vo lume 25, Number 4—Fall 2011—Pages 165–190
One only needs to look at the USA to know strongly right-wing economics are a disaster (families with children living in tent cities, 10’s of thousands dying every year unnecessarily, a country drowning in debt, the most expensive healthcare in the world yet no better life expectancy etc), but then full on socialism/approaching communism has never proven to be a success either. Why? Well these would only succeed if that is what everyone desired and worked happily for. That is of course impossible as within any society we have a broad spectrum of people with differing views on how that society should operate. If someone believes (enforced) neo-liberalism will be a roaring success, they are simply deluded; likewise communism. The only possible solution for success it thus somewhere in the centre; with the final position of that centre being defined by the socio-economic politics of the electorate of the country in question. This of course also requires representative democracy (e.g. PR); again something characteristic of the most successful western social democracies. For without PR, balance is almost impossible to achieve. The downward spiral of the UK is testament to that. Historically the UK gets governments that most people did not vote for (democracy?), ultimately creating the dysfunctional state we see today. The term ‘strong government’ used by advocates of FPTP is of course ‘dictatorial government’ with a dusting of icing sugar. Dictatorial governments always result in rebellion and eventual state collapse, be they too socialist or neo-liberal, too authoritarian or libertarian.
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2012-03-17 10:33
Is Mr Moore conceding that the Opposition parties will not form the government of an Independent Scotland? Otherwise they would know what their tax policy was, no?
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2012-03-17 10:39
Good point. I wonder if the ever so thorough and unbiased BBC will ask him?????
I’ll not hold my breath.
I’ll not hold my breath.
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2012-03-17 10:34
Ach, when will Michael Moore stop running his own country, Scotland down, and stop treating the electorate with such contempt. What a load of twaddle.
People in Scotland are smarter than he, and his Tory spin doctors assume.
This is however, typical of the Libdems, who some commentators now call the ‘*********** ********’. I watched a couple of weeks ago, as Nick Clegg, the Libdem leader told his party faithful at their conference, that although the much hated Health reform Bill in England was a bad bill, due to the Libdems, it was a better bill. Really?????
Now, I wouldn’t want to mock the collective and esteemed IQ of the Libdem party members, but surely the point should have been made to Clegg, that the hated health reform Bill in England, could only ever be passed in Westminster if the Libdems vote for it.
They seem to keep forgetting in the Libdems, that ALL these hated Tory policies such as tuition fees, can only ever get passed if the Libdems vote for them. The Tories do NOT have a parliamentary majority. Indeed, the Tories haven’t won an election since 1992.
I often wonder what kind of deal Moore has done with his Tory new bestest friends, whereby he will spend the next few years rubbishing his own country, effectively making himself persona non gratis and wholly unelectable in Scotland. Has he been promised a peerage? Is it just that he is of an age, where a cabinet minister pension is so attractive (and it is) that he accepts this will end his career in Scotland, but he intends to retire anyway, come the next election.
Who knows. I just think it’s pathetic.
Comment edited by NNS Mod Team
People in Scotland are smarter than he, and his Tory spin doctors assume.
This is however, typical of the Libdems, who some commentators now call the ‘*********** ********’. I watched a couple of weeks ago, as Nick Clegg, the Libdem leader told his party faithful at their conference, that although the much hated Health reform Bill in England was a bad bill, due to the Libdems, it was a better bill. Really?????
Now, I wouldn’t want to mock the collective and esteemed IQ of the Libdem party members, but surely the point should have been made to Clegg, that the hated health reform Bill in England, could only ever be passed in Westminster if the Libdems vote for it.
They seem to keep forgetting in the Libdems, that ALL these hated Tory policies such as tuition fees, can only ever get passed if the Libdems vote for them. The Tories do NOT have a parliamentary majority. Indeed, the Tories haven’t won an election since 1992.
I often wonder what kind of deal Moore has done with his Tory new bestest friends, whereby he will spend the next few years rubbishing his own country, effectively making himself persona non gratis and wholly unelectable in Scotland. Has he been promised a peerage? Is it just that he is of an age, where a cabinet minister pension is so attractive (and it is) that he accepts this will end his career in Scotland, but he intends to retire anyway, come the next election.
Who knows. I just think it’s pathetic.
Comment edited by NNS Mod Team
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2012-03-17 11:22
RL,I think the Liberal party support for thr Tories is more about self preservation than any policy matter.They know that if they bring down this government they will get hammered at the polls.so a no brainer for them.
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2012-03-17 15:04
it is my view that Clegg, Alexander and Moore have been promised Euopean Commisioners jobs and a seat in the Lords once they lose their seats as that will be a huge trough with enough swill to have made them sell their principles and side with the Tories whom they have absolutely nothing in common.
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2012-03-18 06:57
They’re LibDems. They’ve probably sold themselves a lot more cheaply than you think.
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2012-03-17 10:59
That about sums Moore up Robert. We now have had 2 Sceretaries of State for Scotland, Murphy and Moore, being paid in part by Scottish taxpayers to actively work against a democratically elected SG.
Vote yes for Independence.
Vote yes for Independence.
#
2012-03-17 11:08
Perhaps Moore might divert his attention towards the sell off by the Crown Estates of the Kings Park below Stirling Castle to Stirling Council as outlined in the Herald Today in an editorial. Selling off our own land!
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2012-03-17 12:57
It’s worse than that, it seems they’ve already tried something similar in the Stirling area (there’s a very interesting blog also in the Herald comments section on the subject by Andy Wightman, who I believe is some kind of campaigner on land rights).
The editorial also says:
“It is an anachronism that political responsibility for assets such as King’s Park are held by the Crown Estate and its single Scottish commissioner (appointed, not elected), instead of the Scottish Parliament.
Bit like the Scotland Minister, really.
The editorial also says:
“It is an anachronism that political responsibility for assets such as King’s Park are held by the Crown Estate and its single Scottish commissioner (appointed, not elected), instead of the Scottish Parliament.
Bit like the Scotland Minister, really.
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2012-03-17 11:23
Might be worth while for NNS to reprint Herald piece on Stiling Crown Estates land in full.
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2012-03-17 12:59
Yes, and maybe get a quote from Andy Wightman too, either personally or from his blog.
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2012-03-17 11:30
Who is this guy? almost unknown in Scotland before he was parachuted in to replace another unknown Libdem place man. All of a sudden he is an expert on the affairs and the aspirations of the Scottish people. Not worth listening to I reckon, also has as much personality as the proverbial class nerd who everyone tried to avoid listening to. Roll on 2014.
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2012-03-17 11:40
But what damage these nonentities are doing against Scotland. Alexander and Moore have to be the worst examples of lap-dog governor; over-promoted, over-hyped, stupidly and wantonly reckless about Scotland and interested only in number-one. Shocking, truly despicable people.
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2012-03-17 11:59
Quoting Barontorc:
Agree to certain extent, but the people of Scotland has the Libdem liars sussed which will be proved very shortly. This guy is not convincing anyone..quite the opposite I reckon that the majority of listeners just ignore the straw man’s comments.
But what damage these nonentities are doing against Scotland. Alexander and Moore have to be the worst examples of lap-dog governor; over-promoted, over-hyped, stupidly and wantonly reckless about Scotland and interested only in number-one. Shocking, truly despicable people.
Agree to certain extent, but the people of Scotland has the Libdem liars sussed which will be proved very shortly. This guy is not convincing anyone..quite the opposite I reckon that the majority of listeners just ignore the straw man’s comments.
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2012-03-17 11:51
As we are commenting about tax, let me share with you Ian Bell’s thoughts which I subscribe wholeheartedly:
heraldscotland.com/…/…
“It’s hard to give a precise figure in any given month for the number of people paying income tax in Britain.
Over 31 million is a safe enough estimate in a population of, roughly, 49m adults.
Of these 31m, HMRC estimates that 3.74m are liable for the 40% tax band. Beyond that, 308,000 are believed to suffer the indignity of the 50% rate. It’s not a lot of people.
Yesterday, nevertheless, the leading lights of Her Majesty’s Government spent a good deal of time discussing the hardships faced by the 308,000, not the 31m.
As Barontorc puts wonderfully above:
Lap-dog governors
heraldscotland.com/…/…
“It’s hard to give a precise figure in any given month for the number of people paying income tax in Britain.
Over 31 million is a safe enough estimate in a population of, roughly, 49m adults.
Of these 31m, HMRC estimates that 3.74m are liable for the 40% tax band. Beyond that, 308,000 are believed to suffer the indignity of the 50% rate. It’s not a lot of people.
Yesterday, nevertheless, the leading lights of Her Majesty’s Government spent a good deal of time discussing the hardships faced by the 308,000, not the 31m.
As Barontorc puts wonderfully above:
Lap-dog governors
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2012-03-17 11:58
Maybe if he is ignored he will go away!
Don’t forget the Scottish government consultation;
consult.scotland.gov.uk/…/…
Micheal Moore is enough reason on its own to vote YES!
Don’t forget the Scottish government consultation;
consult.scotland.gov.uk/…/…
Micheal Moore is enough reason on its own to vote YES!
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2012-03-17 18:28
michaelmooremp@ parliament.uk
Perhaps we should all send our comments to him directly?
Perhaps we should all send our comments to him directly?
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2012-03-17 13:05
O/T folks i think the snp’s PPB the other night was a mish mash,good visuals positive message,shot themselves in both feet with the song.
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2012-03-17 13:36
At least there was a bike in it right at the end.
I watched it on the iPlayers and the subtitles were completely out of synch.
I do like the song but I’m not sure if the message is clear enough. Perhaps it counters the “separatist” word.
I watched it on the iPlayers and the subtitles were completely out of synch.
I do like the song but I’m not sure if the message is clear enough. Perhaps it counters the “separatist” word.
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2012-03-17 14:48
The SNP has been using that song for ages now. Haven’t you noticed? The lyrics have been changed from the original “let’s stick together” to “let’s work together”. I’ve had my doubts about it in the past, but it didn’t seem to harm them last May!
I believe this was it’s first use: www.youtube.com/…/ (October 2010)
I believe this was it’s first use: www.youtube.com/…/ (October 2010)
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2012-03-17 17:52
Not only had I noticed it before but I downloaded the Jakil version off the iTunes store.
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2012-03-17 13:27
OT again, I’m afraid, but there is a very interesting blog about devolution and the UK by Alan Trench including a reference to a conference on the Scottish independence referendum in London on 12 March some of the material of which is apparently available on the internet – well worth a look:
…/atrench
The article in the Scotsman on Trench’s views is a poor summary as you would expect, better go direct to the source. Trench is anti-independence but at least he argues his point.
The conference is available on a vimeo video at:
ucl.ac.uk/…/…
I’d just add after watching this video, it made me quite angry to see reasonable and well-argued unionist and neutral material freely available in academic circles that if it hits the Scottish media at all is mis-quoted or reported basically by low-grade or biased reporters.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe Moore & Co soundbites and MSM sludge are not all you people are getting up there.
…/atrench
The article in the Scotsman on Trench’s views is a poor summary as you would expect, better go direct to the source. Trench is anti-independence but at least he argues his point.
The conference is available on a vimeo video at:
ucl.ac.uk/…/…
I’d just add after watching this video, it made me quite angry to see reasonable and well-argued unionist and neutral material freely available in academic circles that if it hits the Scottish media at all is mis-quoted or reported basically by low-grade or biased reporters.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe Moore & Co soundbites and MSM sludge are not all you people are getting up there.
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2012-03-17 13:29
OT too, but also see this intriguing tweet apparently by Trench (or at least quoted by him – you regular tweeters would know):
“If proof were needed of UK Coalition’s intention to fragment the UK, see its plan for regionalised public sector pay”
“If proof were needed of UK Coalition’s intention to fragment the UK, see its plan for regionalised public sector pay”
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2012-03-17 13:46
“Tory Scots Secretary Michael Moore calls on SNP to spell out their tax plans for an independent Scotland”.
The Daily Record online headline has it absolutely RIGHT.
Thanks Daily Record for telling us what we have long suspected.
Tory/Libs what’s the difference?
Both are right wing,with the Libs covering it in a mantle of liberalism.
TRUTH WILL ALWAYS FIND YOU OUT.
Gong on the way for Moore,’when the job is done’?
Of course—-he’s part of the British Establishment.
The Daily Record online headline has it absolutely RIGHT.
Thanks Daily Record for telling us what we have long suspected.
Tory/Libs what’s the difference?
Both are right wing,with the Libs covering it in a mantle of liberalism.
TRUTH WILL ALWAYS FIND YOU OUT.
Gong on the way for Moore,’when the job is done’?
Of course—-he’s part of the British Establishment.
#
2012-03-17 13:51
Do not dwell on these nonentities statements. Dwell on, and go forward with the positivities that the incumbent Scottish Government are proclaiming of what an Independent Scotland will become. Go forward with the confidence and the faith that the people of our country of Scotland will choose the right path and these philistines will are, and will be of no relevance to our country’s future when Independence is achieved. Roll on2014
#
2012-03-17 14:45
Why would Moore be asking the question when there are two consultations going on and still not completed?
Perhaps his own one is turning into a disaster for him.
Perhaps his own one is turning into a disaster for him.
#
2012-03-17 15:21
sorry guys for being a wee bit O/T, but have just stopped laughing bout latest scare story :
telegraph.co.uk/…/…
telegraph.co.uk/…/…
#
2012-03-17 15:48
I cannot imagine what the next piece of drivel will be!
The loss of the BBBC in Scotland would be a cause for celebration in my book.
The loss of the BBBC in Scotland would be a cause for celebration in my book.
#
2012-03-17 15:42
We need to move to a national income to which all citizens are entitled. A smaller income for children would also be a right.
Apart for the disabled all other personal benefits would be abolished
The health and education services would be free. Everything else would be a matter if choice
The national income would be tax free and ensure everyone was above the poverty line
All income above the national income would be taxable progressively but this would ensure that if working you would be always better off
This system reduces bureaucracy to a minimum
Apart for the disabled all other personal benefits would be abolished
The health and education services would be free. Everything else would be a matter if choice
The national income would be tax free and ensure everyone was above the poverty line
All income above the national income would be taxable progressively but this would ensure that if working you would be always better off
This system reduces bureaucracy to a minimum
#
2012-03-17 15:59
O/T
Has anyone seen this?
Leaked doc. re labour taking away homeless rights
burghangel.wordpress.com/…/…
Has anyone seen this?
Leaked doc. re labour taking away homeless rights
burghangel.wordpress.com/…/…
#
2012-03-17 16:00
McCRONE Report North Sea. LET US NOT FORGET.
Info witheld in 1974-75.Labour/Tory Westminster years.
Released under Freedom of Information decades later.
Brief summary—as relevant now,as then.
scot-land.blogspot.co.uk/…/…
—and people still ask,”Why does the UK (Westminster) want to hold on to Scotland?”
TRUTH WILL OUT—ALWAYS.
Info witheld in 1974-75.Labour/Tory Westminster years.
Released under Freedom of Information decades later.
Brief summary—as relevant now,as then.
scot-land.blogspot.co.uk/…/…
—and people still ask,”Why does the UK (Westminster) want to hold on to Scotland?”
TRUTH WILL OUT—ALWAYS.
#
2012-03-17 16:39
Having kept the truth secret for years, rUK is still sleepwalking and deluding itself about the oil and the revenues. guardian.co.uk/…/…
#
2012-03-17 19:28
Agreed, but as good as the photo was this gem from the text:
“Mind you the Caird Hall looked like Vatican square on Easter Sunday compared to the remnants of the Liberal Democrats who huddled together in Inverness”.
“Mind you the Caird Hall looked like Vatican square on Easter Sunday compared to the remnants of the Liberal Democrats who huddled together in Inverness”.
#
2012-03-17 16:38
Wendy Alexander takes up academic role in London
I’m surprised nobody else has commented on this,she says she is going to commute that is going to cost so who will pay??,is dad staying at home to look after the twins.
I’m surprised nobody else has commented on this,she says she is going to commute that is going to cost so who will pay??,is dad staying at home to look after the twins.
#
2012-03-17 21:37
Is London going to be big enough to contain that massive intellect we heard so much about and saw so little of?
#
2012-03-17 19:17
Not sure if Moore’s picture means he’s sucking a lemon drop because of the headline or he’s imitating tweetie birdie …?
#
2012-03-17 19:36
Dundonian West
” —and people still ask,”Why does the UK (Westminster) want to hold on to Scotland?”
TRUTH WILL OUT—ALWAYS. !
BBC ALBA: Truth, Lies, Oil and Scotland
Part 1 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 2 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 3 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 4 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 5 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 6 – www.youtube.com/…/]
Part 7 – www.youtube.com/…/
” —and people still ask,”Why does the UK (Westminster) want to hold on to Scotland?”
TRUTH WILL OUT—ALWAYS. !
BBC ALBA: Truth, Lies, Oil and Scotland
Part 1 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 2 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 3 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 4 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 5 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 6 – www.youtube.com/…/]
Part 7 – www.youtube.com/…/
#
2012-03-18 02:47
RTP
“ How can I send this to my son in Australia so he can watch it all. “
There are a variety of ways; I presume the easiest, and quickest way, is via email.
Just execute each UTube vid in turn and copy & paste the link URL’s, at the top of the page in the address bar, into your email.
[Edit]
Or easier still, and more advantageous, copy the link URL at the top of this NNS article and paste it into your email… telling him to look for the comment.
“ How can I send this to my son in Australia so he can watch it all. “
There are a variety of ways; I presume the easiest, and quickest way, is via email.
Just execute each UTube vid in turn and copy & paste the link URL’s, at the top of the page in the address bar, into your email.
[Edit]
Or easier still, and more advantageous, copy the link URL at the top of this NNS article and paste it into your email… telling him to look for the comment.
#
2012-03-18 13:23
Quoting Roll_On_2011:
THANKS A MILLION for the youtube video oil links above.
Ought to be shoved through every letterbox in Scotland,but I’m sure there’s a law against that sort of thing.
Straight into my Favourites—I may need them again sometime
“Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened”.
Handel’s Messiah Part 1.Alto.
Dundonian West
” —and people still ask,”Why does the UK (Westminster) want to hold on to Scotland?”
TRUTH WILL OUT—ALWAYS. !
BBC ALBA: Truth, Lies, Oil and Scotland
Part 1 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 2 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 3 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 4 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 5 – www.youtube.com/…/
Part 6 – www.youtube.com/…/]
Part 7 – www.youtube.com/…/
THANKS A MILLION for the youtube video oil links above.
Ought to be shoved through every letterbox in Scotland,but I’m sure there’s a law against that sort of thing.
Straight into my Favourites—I may need them again sometime
“Then shall the eyes of the blind be opened”.
Handel’s Messiah Part 1.Alto.
#
2012-03-17 20:53
O/T Everybody settled down for the start of the new series from the impartial state-funded broadcaster exploring just how God managed to make the English so darned good? Don’t know whether it needs a large dram or a brick at hand.
#
2012-03-17 22:09
I’m feeling all superior cos they let us join in. FFS.
And that coronation oath is gotta change.
And that coronation oath is gotta change.
#
2012-03-18 01:35
I think it will do the YES vote a lot of good. Whilst I have no issue with a programme exploring England and the English, per se, the arrogant way in which this programme mentioned Scotland joining with England to form Great Britain, but then arguing that the ‘British Empire’ came about because of the sense of superiority and duty derived for the church of England, was too dumb for wards.
The key aspect from watching that programme, was the overtly glib way in which the terms. British and English were used interchangeably . Of course, the reality is just as was shown on the programme, in reality British is English, it is merely an easy way to avoid the difficulty involved in calling the Welsh and Scots English, call them ‘British’ instead. It means the same thing.
As regards the coronation oath, well that is fine for England, and the queen taking the English crown, however, there is another interesting side to the issue. Following the London coronation, the Queen travelled to Edinburgh to accept the crown of Scotland. So afraid were the Westminster numpties that this would emphasise the Scottish separate identity too much, that they played it down. Instead of a proper coronation service, the Queen travelled to St.Giles cathedral, dressed in ordinary clothing, no robe or crown, where she saw before her, the honours of Scotland. She was not allowed to even touch them.
At the time, many in Scotland were furious, even the most devoted royalists regarded it as a snub. I have often stated, that should Elizabeth wish to be Queen of an independent Scotland then she would need to come up here and be crowned as such. There is no such crown as the ‘British crown’.
As a matter of reference, around the time of her coronation, Elizabeth was required to take an oath to uphold the Scottish presbyterian church.
see;
parliament.uk/…/…
In particular pages 5 and 6.
The key aspect from watching that programme, was the overtly glib way in which the terms. British and English were used interchangeably . Of course, the reality is just as was shown on the programme, in reality British is English, it is merely an easy way to avoid the difficulty involved in calling the Welsh and Scots English, call them ‘British’ instead. It means the same thing.
As regards the coronation oath, well that is fine for England, and the queen taking the English crown, however, there is another interesting side to the issue. Following the London coronation, the Queen travelled to Edinburgh to accept the crown of Scotland. So afraid were the Westminster numpties that this would emphasise the Scottish separate identity too much, that they played it down. Instead of a proper coronation service, the Queen travelled to St.Giles cathedral, dressed in ordinary clothing, no robe or crown, where she saw before her, the honours of Scotland. She was not allowed to even touch them.
At the time, many in Scotland were furious, even the most devoted royalists regarded it as a snub. I have often stated, that should Elizabeth wish to be Queen of an independent Scotland then she would need to come up here and be crowned as such. There is no such crown as the ‘British crown’.
As a matter of reference, around the time of her coronation, Elizabeth was required to take an oath to uphold the Scottish presbyterian church.
see;
parliament.uk/…/…
In particular pages 5 and 6.
#
2012-03-18 02:18
Yes Robert did you see the slight of hand as “Scotland agreed to form this Union” with God’s chosen England and then was promptly morphed into Great Britain which then became, forever England?
My wife thought the presenter was being scurrilous and taking the pis* with England’s notion of itself – but she was soon dissuaded of that as things went on.
“Largs, Ayrshire” probably doesn’t know it was once Anglo-Saxon, either, as it set about repelling the Viking hordes.
Boy, oh boy – they just don’t get it, do they!
Fantastic show by Wales – dented the English euphoria just a tad though – still, God’s chosen people, still yet supreme, they know they’re really no 1!
Lord Coe can bog off too!
My wife thought the presenter was being scurrilous and taking the pis* with England’s notion of itself – but she was soon dissuaded of that as things went on.
“Largs, Ayrshire” probably doesn’t know it was once Anglo-Saxon, either, as it set about repelling the Viking hordes.
Boy, oh boy – they just don’t get it, do they!
Fantastic show by Wales – dented the English euphoria just a tad though – still, God’s chosen people, still yet supreme, they know they’re really no 1!
Lord Coe can bog off too!
#
2012-03-18 13:17
I do like the last line in The Wealth of Nations.
The reality is that the dream of empire is mediocre at it’s greatest.
The reality is that the dream of empire is mediocre at it’s greatest.
#
2012-03-17 23:27
Hi all, so slightly O/T and this is more to the online ed!
I have started a blog where I’ll be writing every now and again and was wondering if I’d be able to reproduce (With credit given of course!!) a few of the articles from here?
I ask because I know I have certain friends who would read various articles if they were posted/put up by someone they know rather than, what they see as, yet ANOTHER website that will probably be talking rubbish. I wouldn’t claim any of the credit for the articles, just want to possibly copy and paste them…? (If that’d work…?)
Here’s a link to a response I wrote to a letter that a friend wrote to one of HIS friends (I know, I know! :-D) to try to put him off the idea of Independence. I used information I’d learned from here and various links people have provided to put together this. It’s the first time I’ve ever written something like this so feel free to comment/criticise. I won’t cry. Much.
aleccollins.blogspot.co.uk/…/…
And feel free to read the original letter I was responding to. It’s at the very least a nice letter compared to the way the politicians speak.
Many thanks!
T
I have started a blog where I’ll be writing every now and again and was wondering if I’d be able to reproduce (With credit given of course!!) a few of the articles from here?
I ask because I know I have certain friends who would read various articles if they were posted/put up by someone they know rather than, what they see as, yet ANOTHER website that will probably be talking rubbish. I wouldn’t claim any of the credit for the articles, just want to possibly copy and paste them…? (If that’d work…?)
Here’s a link to a response I wrote to a letter that a friend wrote to one of HIS friends (I know, I know! :-D) to try to put him off the idea of Independence. I used information I’d learned from here and various links people have provided to put together this. It’s the first time I’ve ever written something like this so feel free to comment/criticise. I won’t cry. Much.
aleccollins.blogspot.co.uk/…/…
And feel free to read the original letter I was responding to. It’s at the very least a nice letter compared to the way the politicians speak.
Many thanks!
T
#
2012-03-18 02:12
A pretty decent effort Alec. The friendly tone is the way to do it. However, I fear your friend won’t actually be open to persuasion using pesky things like facts. Many of those who wish to stay in the union, attempt to make a case with their own ‘facts’, when in reality, their loyalty is actually on an emotional basis. There’s enough in Neil’s letter to suggest to me that that is the case here too.
#
2012-03-18 15:46
Quoting Stan Drews:
Indeed. I think I commented on how ScotNats get criticised for Using the past as a reason for independence but BritNats do it all the time.
I wrote it, not only for his attention, but also for the attention of all of those who would see it when I linked it on his FB page. I don’t have the articulation and finesse that some of NNS writers do (Hazel being one example!) but figured it was worth a shot. Thanks 🙂
A pretty decent effort Alec. The friendly tone is the way to do it. However, I fear your friend won’t actually be open to persuasion using pesky things like facts. Many of those who wish to stay in the union, attempt to make a case with their own ‘facts’, when in reality, their loyalty is actually on an emotional basis. There’s enough in Neil’s letter to suggest to me that that is the case here too.
Indeed. I think I commented on how ScotNats get criticised for Using the past as a reason for independence but BritNats do it all the time.
I wrote it, not only for his attention, but also for the attention of all of those who would see it when I linked it on his FB page. I don’t have the articulation and finesse that some of NNS writers do (Hazel being one example!) but figured it was worth a shot. Thanks 🙂
#
2012-03-18 13:12
I know one simple thing for sure Mr Moore, the tax system in an Independent Scotland will be a hellofa lot simpler and fairer than anything you, Alexander and Osborne can dream up. It will also be tailored to Independent Scotish needs, not the south east corner of Englandshire.
Still, you don’t have to worry about it Mr Moore, hopefully you will have Westminster citizenship, if you get cracking now.
Still, you don’t have to worry about it Mr Moore, hopefully you will have Westminster citizenship, if you get cracking now.
#
2012-03-18 16:19
Stan Drews.”Many of those who wish to stay in the union, attempt to make a case with their own ‘facts’, when in reality, their loyalty is actually on an emotional basis.”
Well put.
Some believe the stories of isolation,TV vanishing overnight,being cut off from friends and family, et al.
Well put.
Some believe the stories of isolation,TV vanishing overnight,being cut off from friends and family, et al.
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