By a Newsnet reporter
In a paper submitted to the UK Government’s consultation on the independence referendum, Tavish Scott and Liam McArthur, Lib Dem MSPs for Orkney and Shetland, claim that Orkney and Shetland may decide to remain a part of the UK if the rest of Scotland votes for independence.
Mr Scott and Mr McArthur express their concern that the constitutional debate has been muted in the islands, but believe that the independence referendum and the consultation exercises being run by both Westminster and Holyrood offer the islanders their best chance in decades of deciding on the future government of the islands. Despite this, the Lib Dem MSPs have chosen not to respond to the Scottish Government’s consultation on the referendum.
Quoting the late Jo Grimmond, who said, “The last thing the Northern Isles want is to be ruled by Glasgow trade unionists and Edinburgh lawyers”, Mr Scott and Mr McArthur argue that the islands risk being sidelined in the debate on Scotland’s constitutional future.
The MSPs conclude that there are three options open to the islands in the current constitutional debate.
To retain their current constitutional position within the UK and as part of Scotland but negotiate additional responsibility over key public sector areas.
Enhanced powers or independence from Scotland if Scotland were to vote for independence but the Northern isles voted no.
Enhanced constitutional and tax status within the UK. The Faroes provide one model with links to Denmark. The Isle of Man and Channel Islands offer various models of island communities that constitute themselves in different ways from the rest of the UK.
The Lib Dem MSPs’ report goes on to explain:
“The Northern Isles therefore will want to use the current debate about Scotland’s future to fully assess their needs and aspirations and ensure that these are properly reflected in whatever constitutional arrangements are settled upon. Orkney and Shetland are likely to have different requirements and potentially different destinations on this constitutional journey but they share a strong sense of local identity.”
In 2008, Sandy Cluness, an independent councillor and convenor of Shetland Council, called for a Shetland Assembly with taxraising powers, and for range of services to be devolved from Edinburgh to the islands, including transport, policing, coastal protection, in-shore fisheries, further education and the arts.
Mr Cluness continued: “There are plenty of examples of semi-autonomous islands across Europe and most of them actually do much better than we do. In future we will be looking to discuss Shetland’s constitutional future with the Scottish government with a view to securing the best possible deal.”
The statement from the Council Convenor was welcomed by First Minister Alex Salmond, who said: “The views of the Shetland Islands Council are an excellent example of the national conversation in action – all such ideas can be proposed, and we can reach a view on the best way forward.”
Mr Cluness’ remarks were partially supported by Tavish Scott, however the Lib Dem MSP rejected any idea of Shetland seceding from Scotland. Speaking to the Shetland Times in 2008 he said: “I am in favour of greater powers for Shetland, but they need to sit within a coherent structure for the whole of Scotland. I’m more than happy to work with the council on their ideas, but obviously they are for the longer term.”
Now that Scotland is planning the referendum on independence which Mr Scott’s party fought to prevent, the former Lib Dem leader has apparently had a change of heart on the need for greater autonomy for Shetland to “sit within a coherent structure for the whole of Scotland”.
The SNP has repeatedly stated that it is in favour of greater autonomy for the islands in an independent Scotland. The SNP’s policy at successive elections has supported the Northern Isles’ right to self-determination and the party has stated its willingness to grant additional autonomy to the islands after Scottish independence.
In part the new intervention from Mr Scott and Mr McArthur may be motivated by fear of the increasing support the SNP enjoys in the Northern Isles. In last year’s Holyrood election the SNP came a close second behind the Lib Dems in returns from Shetland for the Highland and Islands list seat. A mere 287 votes separated the Lib Dems on 2,975 and the SNP on 2,688, meaning that just under 30% of Shetlanders who voted, voted SNP.
Organised demands for home-rule in Orkney and Shetland are closely associated with the SNP. During the 1987 Westminster General Election, the SNP was in an electoral agreement with the Orkney and Shetland Movement and refrained from standing candidates in the islands. However since the demise of the Orkney and Shetland Movement, there has been no organised political campaign in the islands for greater autonomy.
Writing in the Shetland Times, local journalist Paul Riddell remarks that following the disaster which befell the Lib Dems in last year’s Holyrood elections, and Mr Scott’s resignation as leader, the local MSP and his party have been marginalised in Scottish politics and this gives Mr Scott the opportunity to indulge in “mischief making”.
Mr Riddell characterises Mr Scott’s comments as “political troublemaking and not a serious negotiating position”, saying:
“Of course Mr Scott should be pushing for the best possible deal for Shetland, but he says he does not believe that Scotland, never mind Shetland, will vote for independence, so this is surely political troublemaking and not a serious negotiating position.”
A spokesperson for the SNP said: “Shetland and Orkney are an important and valued part of Scotland. That will remain the case with independence and the SNP have always been open to greater autonomy for the Northern Isles in an independent Scotland.”
The paper from Mr Scott and Mr McArthur can be read in full click here.
It is quite unbelievable how low the LibDems have sunk to get power.
Perfectly believable fur wis at’s been observin da craiturs fur years. A lowly life form.
1) Orkney and Shetland might just as easily decide they want to be part of Norway.
scotsman.com/…/…
I am a born and bred Shetlander and I have always been in preference that when Scotland got their Independence that I would like greater Autonomy for Shetland as per Faroe. This was something that was promised by King James and King Christian of Denmark as per the pawning agreement.
The one issue that does need to be resolved is the truth of Shetlands constitutional status. Although pawned for 8,000 gold florins of the Rhine to the Scottish Crown. There is documented evidence of this, however there is no evidence or date for the annexing of Shetland by Scotland. This is an area that westminster will seek to exploit.
I know no Shetlander that wants to remain with London apart from the local Lib Dems. Tavish is only worried about his future as a lord lieutenant as per his father. It must be remembered he is referred to as the lairds son here
The one issue that does need to be resolved is the truth of Shetlands constitutional status. Although pawned for 8,000 gold florins of the Rhine to the Scottish Crown. There is documented evidence of this, however there is no evidence or date for the annexing of Shetland by Scotland. This is an area that westminster will seek to exploit.
If there is no record of Shetland being annexed by Scotland then surely Shetland isn’t part of the UK?
Get out of that Unionists.
In 2008, Sandy Cluness, an independent councillor and convenor of Shetland Council, called for a Shetland Assembly with taxraising powers, and for range of services to be devolved from Edinburgh to the islands, including transport, policing, coastal protection, in-shore fisheries, further education and the arts.
Does this mean that Shetland would subsidies the ferries out of their own revenue?
The fact that I even ask that question shows how divisive this whole suggestion by Mr Scott is, and how silly.
The whole idea being put forward by the LibDem MSP is designed to play on grievances more imagined than real.
It is also about oil and is a crude attempt to separate Scotland from the oil in the northern most parts of Scotland’s territorial waters by formenting division where none exists.
I did not think any politician would sink so low but then I forgot about the LibDems. Truly they are plumbing new depths.
And how many people in England actually know where Orkney and Shetland are?
Very few.
last night, Monday, was the final of University Challenge and one of the questions asked: ‘Which Island in the inner hebrides has Portree as its capital?’ Answer from the eventual winners: Lewis and Harris. At least they knew that you have to put Lewis and Harris together to get an island.
Throughout this past series of University Challenge, and during the General Knowledge section of Mastermind, I have been aware that whenever a question relating to Scotland comes up nine times out of ten they cannot answer it. And these are some of the bright sparks.
And how many people in England actually know where Orkney and Shetland are? And the only reason Wastemonster knows about it is to do with oil.
Joe Grimond quote: “The last thing the Northern Isles want is to be ruled by Glasgow trade unionists and Edinburgh lawyers”.
So better the current bunch of freebooters running london and the south east
Well said, Embra Quine! Of course the sneering Tavish Scott would prefer his Northern Isles constituents to be ruled by a Westminster Tory controlled government. How else would he be able to eventually attain “ermine jaikit” status along with Wallace (of Tankerness)?
Of course Shetland could opt to negotiate a treaty to rejoin Norway. I wonder what London would make of that.
There is a number of Shetlanders who would like to go down this route and is often spoken of in hushed tones as some of our white settlers are not to happy about this and tell us we will lose all our benefits.
We have the Prime Minister of Norway coming over for a visit to Shetland to open one of our new museums in Scalloway. A lot of us are excited about this. Same as Queen Sophie came to the islands at the opening of the museum in Lerwick.
Of course Shetland could opt to negotiate a treaty to rejoin Norway. I wonder what London would make of that.
You never know, maybe the Manx folk of the Isle of Man will opt to return to Scotland, of which it was once historically a part. There again, maybe Tavish Scott will then call for the seabird colonies on Rockall and The Ailsa Craig to secede to England. Sigh!
The biggest effect would be the loss to Scotland of half the Pentland Firth and its huge renewable energy resource.
that would be the effect on Scotland – minor. the effect on Shetland would a disaster. anybody who has seen the Shetland Islands Council in action would testify to that.
Sheltie, am I right in thinking that although Orkney and Shetland elect LibDem MSPS and MP, when it comes to local elections it is usually Independent candidates that win through? If so, does this mean in fact they are only elected to Holyrood or Westminster because they might have more clout being part of a bigger party than and Independent would?
Independent candidates generally do win in SIC elections. Which is why the council is an ongoing shambles with no direction and less leadership. And why the ‘administration’ can never be changed. And why the Central Belt of Lerwick is promoted while the North Isles are left to wither. Essentially the ‘Lerwick Party’ is always in power. Not healthy and NOT a basis for autonomy in any way shape or form. if it is then Yell, Unst, Fetlar, Skerries and Whalsay should secede from Shetland!
That’s why the Council of Europe were sent a Memorandum by the SDA as well as the OSCE.
We will see what sanctions they place on the divisive actions by Westminster and their lackies ?.
Yes, we will. I’ll have a fiver on “None whatsoever”.
I thought Phil Cunningham was from Northumbria. But, yes, a federal Scotland sounds good. And perhaps we could annex Northumbria, or buy it from the impoverished rump UK, so we could lay claim to Phil Cunningham?
There are two Phil Cunningham’s, one is Scottish born in Edinburgh in 1960 who was in Silly Wizard, and often duets with Aly Bain. The other was born in Cheshire and played with Bad Lieutenant. The Scottish Phil Cunningham is a surprisingly talented musician, and plays most common instruments.
en.wikipedia.org/…/…
There is however thankfully only one Tavish Scott, a very bitter man who has had his delusions of grandeur shattered by his duplicity. He would have often dreamt of following the other nonentity’s Steele and Stephen into the hallowed halls of Westminster wearing the Ermine, that was all brutally snatched away from him. The title Lord Tavish Scott of the Northern Isles would have got him very excited on occasions.
His latest out burst of malice is based on nothing more than wickedness and spite and a desire to do down Scotland that has rejected him. He follows in the tracks of the unelected Lord Caithness who has put forward an amendment to The Scotland Bill to this effect. Partition is a classic imperialist tool, and one that will come back to haunt these *********** self serving politicians.
“Surprisingly” talented? Why would you be surprised?
This would do it for me:
Quoting Soixante-neuf:
Murray Campbell…was throwing all sorts of early music instruments at him, and he was playing the lot.
Ahhh Tavish..in 1707 it cost them £20,000 in 2012 it seems all they need is an ermine robe.
Indeed, it must hurt him so much that Nicol stephen got a robe, but he didn’t.
Never mind Tavish, when Scotland becomes independent, you could always move to England, and do a wee bit more cringing and fawning.
The Shetland/Norway thing is a bit of a myth. The islands have been extensively settled by Scots since the 15th century, as the surnames and the language of their descendants show. It’s a bit like saying you’re descended from your grandpaw but not your grannie.
Shetlanders admittedly had a bad time with Scots lairdlings like Tavish Scott & Co, but then, all Scots had a bad time with lairdlings like Tavish Scott.
Had Northmavine/Delting ancestors myself.
Plenty of Shetland lairdlings too – e.g. South Aywick in East Yell was cleared by Pole Hoseason of Mossbank. Not a ‘Scottish’ name is Ossisen!
i agree the only time Shetland get a mention on the telly, seems to be UpHellyA
Which was entirely invented in the 1890s by a Lerwick marxist who hed union jack drawers! Ah, British ‘Internationalis ts’ – bless.
One comment to all posters and to NNS.
There are no places called Shetlands or Orkneys. They are Shetland and Orkney (or Shetland Islands, etc) the main island of both groups are actually called the mainland. The smaller islands have names (all of which come from Norse with Anglicised spellings.
Just a small thing that really grates on all of us up here when the MSM and others use these terms.
Tak
Alt dað besta
Hi fellow Sheltie – I wid disagree wi da ‘all’ place names – Lots o pre-norse names. Jacobsen thought 5-10% of Orkney and Shetland names had a celtic origin. see Marwick at ads.ahds.ac.uk/…/…
. Unst Yell and Fetlar is all probably pre norse, as is Sheltand itsel. Insse Catt originally, wi norse word form Cattland, reinterpreted in Iceland as Hjaltland, the Zetland, and now Shetland. Also mind dat a lot o da place name enthusiasts laek Stewart wis wirkin in a ‘British’ (ie anything but Scottish) mindset
But I DO agree the Shetlands and Orkneys thing is bloody annoying. Just wait til the Scotlands is independents. Sorry.
Not all surnames are Scottish (mine is) however in 1735 (approx) Shetlanders were forced to use and take Scottish and Anglicised surnames on the pain of imprisonment. The same was done for christian names. It was a way of wiping out the Norse heritage. Anyone speaking Norn was also punished. The children were only taught English and were punished for speaking Norn and then Shetland whilst at school or church. This continued upto and including the 1970’s.
I am in Deltin with Northmavin and Wester Skeld ancesters on both sides of my family as well as Orkadian and Caithness ancesters, all dating from pre 1600’s (every chance they were all norse).
Shetland also has a large amount of Spanish decedents from the Spanish Armada, These people classify themselves as Shetlanders despite their surname (therefore you cannot claim someones nationality by their surname)
Shetland has always been the crossroads of the North Sea/ Alantic and therefore has always had a lot of different nationalities settle here. Iknow plenty of English people who have settled in my area and they are voting for independence and are a very strong voice for the support of Shetland. Those that don’t want to live here leave not long after they arrive.
Those of us who live here know what we have and have no desire to see it ruined by Wastemonster. They have done us enough damage and will continue to do so. It was Maggie who tried to get our oil fund and Europe/ Norway/ SNP who suck up for us. The people need to be reminded of that though.
There is also truth that many would like to be more like Faeroe. Faeroe had a smaller population than Shetland and was granted greater autonomy from Denmark, th saw their population grow from around 12,000 to 48,000. At the same time Shetland fell from 40,000 to 16,000 and oil brought that back up to it’s current 22,000. That is a sign of Westminter policy over the years have deprived the islands.
Roll on 2014 when we get rid of this shower of rogues and truly take our place on the world stage and once again lead the world and have the second period of enlightenment.
Its good to hear the views of a Shetlander.
Whats your take on Tavish?
for some of our problems (air discount scheme, ferry contracts, .
The ferry which was specced when he was transport minister and which was suitable only for a short crossing, not 14 hours overnight – 2 bars, 2 restaurants and no bliddy cabins. Like Mr Scott was ever slumming it on the boat with us plebs anyway. not. And when’s he going to repay the 100’s of millions of pounds he wasted on the Edinburghs (sorry again) trams?
Constitutional options
The Northern Isles could seek:
1. To retain their current constitutional position within the UK and as part of Scotland but negotiate additional responsibility over key public sector areas.
2. Enhanced powers or independence from Scotland if Scotland were to vote for independence but the Northern isles voted no. The SNP’s policy at successive elections conceded the Northern Isles’ right to their own self-determination.
3. Enhanced constitutional and tax status within the UK. The Faroes provide one model with links to Denmark. Closer to home the Isle of Man and Channel Islands offer various models of island communities that constitute themselves in different ways from the rest of the UK
There’s a few things that need to be picked out of this statement.
The first thing is that here he doesn’t directly advocate that Shetland and Orkney stay with England if Scotland becomes independent. That appears to be a media invention.
Option 1 and 3 are just devolution for Shetland and Orkney within the UK, ranging from minimal devolution of public sector powers for option 1 to something akin to devo-max for option 3.
Option 2 is where the Lib-Dem sleekery raises its head.
What Tavish proposes in the first part is that if Scotland becomes independent then Shetland and Orkney should have enhanced devolved powers which is pretty similar to what he proposes for Shetland and Orkney within the UK but this is a conditon of Shetland and Orkney voting no to Scottish independence. Why can’t Shetland and Orkney have powers devolved from an independent Scotland if they vote yes? Voting yes for Scottish independence and then gaining more local powers don’t seem incompatible at all.
In the second part of option 2 Tavish proposes that if Shetland and Orkney vote no to Scottish independence then they should become independent. The logic falls down here. If the population of Shetland and Orkney prefer to be British rather than Scottish why does this mean that they want to become a country in their own right? You’ll also note that in the event of a continuing UK Tavish doesn’t propose that Shetland and Orkney become independent from the UK, only from an independent Scotland. But what if Shetland and Orkney vote for Scottish independence even if the rest of Scotland doesn’t? Shouldn’t they then become independent from the UK and why is Shetland and Orkney independence only an option if Scotland becomes independent?
It seems the Lib-Dem logic works like this:
Shetland and Orkney should have the option of independence only if Scotland becomes independent. If Scotland doesn’t become independent then neither should Shetland and Orkney.
There’s no logical consistency to Tavishes views at all. Either he believes Shetland and Orkney independence is a valid option which should apply regardless of whether Scotland breaks up the UK or he’s just playing silly games because he’s trying his best to wreck any move to Scottish independence
Angus 2012-03-20 15:21
“I agree with what you say J Wil.
Tavish has stuck his head out well above the trench and he isnt talking for the people of Shetland but his own bitter brand of unionism.”
How can you possibly know that Angus? It is quite likely IN MY OPINION that Tavish and Liam are correct. Everyone in Scotland who has a vote in the referendum has an opinion of the best route to self determination.
I have been to Shetland many times and the people are generally very relaxed about politics and prefer Scotland to England. There may be a case where they wish for self determination, but Tavish is a staunch unionist who has not consulted ‘his’ people prior to his statements.
it probably provides the best blueprint for a sustainable United Kingdom.
That begs the question of whether the UK should be sustained.
However, even under the hypothetical circumstance that this occurred, Westminster wouldn’t be able to retain control of the oil fields anyway, so ya boo sux. These matters are regulated by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, to which the UK is a signatory. International law specifies that a state controls the continental shelf and associated mineral and fishing rights up to 200 nautical miles (230 miles or 370 km) off its shores. When another state possesses an island within the continental shelf of this state, special rules apply
Orkney and Shetland are owned by Scotland
Scotland bought the islands from Norway
Its a myth they are descended from vikings
although there is Viking blood in the Islands, Dna analysis suggests that the
majority are of Celtic Origin.
This is the usual Unionist scare stories
trying to suggest that the islands (and the oil) will stay with the uk.
I dont think Shetlanders would agree with that. Scotland doesnt own them, they are a part of Scotland.
Shetland came to the UK as a part of Scotland, and it will leave the union that way, that will be recognised under international law. Whether they have a referendum to be part of Scotland or not is really up to the Shetlanders themselves, but I know they would rather be Scottish than a part of England.
You are actually not far off about the DNA, which surprised me when I saw it a couple of years ago, the Shetlands were colonised by Norway, and they are as a population about 10% Norwegian, there is some Spanish in them from the Armada, but the overwhelming ethnic group is the Picts, who are a common denominator amongst the people of Scotland, especially in the North and East coast of Scotland.
The SNP should get talking to the Shetlanders or even put out a survey to each household to gauge their views.
Somehow, I dont think many will agree with Tavish’s new UK.