Monday, 19 March 2012 21:33
By a Newsnet reporter
In a paper submitted to the UK Government’s consultation on the independence referendum, Tavish Scott and Liam McArthur, Lib Dem MSPs for Orkney and Shetland, claim that Orkney and Shetland may decide to remain a part of the UK if the rest of Scotland votes for independence.
Mr Scott and Mr McArthur express their concern that the constitutional debate has been muted in the islands, but believe that the independence referendum and the consultation exercises being run by both Westminster and Holyrood offer the islanders their best chance in decades of deciding on the future government of the islands. Despite this, the Lib Dem MSPs have chosen not to respond to the Scottish Government’s consultation on the referendum.
Quoting the late Jo Grimmond, who said, “The last thing the Northern Isles want is to be ruled by Glasgow trade unionists and Edinburgh lawyers”, Mr Scott and Mr McArthur argue that the islands risk being sidelined in the debate on Scotland’s constitutional future.
The MSPs conclude that there are three options open to the islands in the current constitutional debate.
To retain their current constitutional position within the UK and as part of Scotland but negotiate additional responsibility over key public sector areas.
Enhanced powers or independence from Scotland if Scotland were to vote for independence but the Northern isles voted no.
Enhanced constitutional and tax status within the UK. The Faroes provide one model with links to Denmark. The Isle of Man and Channel Islands offer various models of island communities that constitute themselves in different ways from the rest of the UK.
The Lib Dem MSPs’ report goes on to explain:
“The Northern Isles therefore will want to use the current debate about Scotland’s future to fully assess their needs and aspirations and ensure that these are properly reflected in whatever constitutional arrangements are settled upon. Orkney and Shetland are likely to have different requirements and potentially different destinations on this constitutional journey but they share a strong sense of local identity.”
In 2008, Sandy Cluness, an independent councillor and convenor of Shetland Council, called for a Shetland Assembly with taxraising powers, and for range of services to be devolved from Edinburgh to the islands, including transport, policing, coastal protection, in-shore fisheries, further education and the arts.
Mr Cluness continued: “There are plenty of examples of semi-autonomous islands across Europe and most of them actually do much better than we do. In future we will be looking to discuss Shetland’s constitutional future with the Scottish government with a view to securing the best possible deal.”
The statement from the Council Convenor was welcomed by First Minister Alex Salmond, who said: “The views of the Shetland Islands Council are an excellent example of the national conversation in action – all such ideas can be proposed, and we can reach a view on the best way forward.”
Mr Cluness’ remarks were partially supported by Tavish Scott, however the Lib Dem MSP rejected any idea of Shetland seceding from Scotland. Speaking to the Shetland Times in 2008 he said: “I am in favour of greater powers for Shetland, but they need to sit within a coherent structure for the whole of Scotland. I’m more than happy to work with the council on their ideas, but obviously they are for the longer term.”
Now that Scotland is planning the referendum on independence which Mr Scott’s party fought to prevent, the former Lib Dem leader has apparently had a change of heart on the need for greater autonomy for Shetland to “sit within a coherent structure for the whole of Scotland”.
The SNP has repeatedly stated that it is in favour of greater autonomy for the islands in an independent Scotland. The SNP’s policy at successive elections has supported the Northern Isles’ right to self-determination and the party has stated its willingness to grant additional autonomy to the islands after Scottish independence.
In part the new intervention from Mr Scott and Mr McArthur may be motivated by fear of the increasing support the SNP enjoys in the Northern Isles. In last year’s Holyrood election the SNP came a close second behind the Lib Dems in returns from Shetland for the Highland and Islands list seat. A mere 287 votes separated the Lib Dems on 2,975 and the SNP on 2,688, meaning that just under 30% of Shetlanders who voted, voted SNP.
Organised demands for home-rule in Orkney and Shetland are closely associated with the SNP. During the 1987 Westminster General Election, the SNP was in an electoral agreement with the Orkney and Shetland Movement and refrained from standing candidates in the islands. However since the demise of the Orkney and Shetland Movement, there has been no organised political campaign in the islands for greater autonomy.
Writing in the Shetland Times, local journalist Paul Riddell remarks that following the disaster which befell the Lib Dems in last year’s Holyrood elections, and Mr Scott’s resignation as leader, the local MSP and his party have been marginalised in Scottish politics and this gives Mr Scott the opportunity to indulge in “mischief making”.
Mr Riddell characterises Mr Scott’s comments as “political troublemaking and not a serious negotiating position”, saying:
“Of course Mr Scott should be pushing for the best possible deal for Shetland, but he says he does not believe that Scotland, never mind Shetland, will vote for independence, so this is surely political troublemaking and not a serious negotiating position.”
A spokesperson for the SNP said: “Shetland and Orkney are an important and valued part of Scotland. That will remain the case with independence and the SNP have always been open to greater autonomy for the Northern Isles in an independent Scotland.”
The paper from Mr Scott and Mr McArthur can be read in full click here.
Comments
2012-03-20 00:35
If Orkney and Shetland want to go their own way fine. I have no problem with people’s right to determination.
Whether Orknaey and Shetalnd would wish to be ruled by peoplem from London in England is another matter.
2012-03-20 03:18
If we are going to go down this dingbat road of cellular mandates, each island would have to be polled individually on THEIR preferred arrangement – if there is to be democracy for the people of one Shetland island there must be democracy for the people of all twenty, and each to choose its preferences.
For the remaining ninety (90) uninhabited islands, they of course, remain Scottish territory, and the puffins and other creatures who reside thereon, do not get a vote.
2012-03-20 15:56
Westminster would probably argue to extend the franchise to them if it figured they were more inclinded to vote no. Free buckets of mackerel might swing it.
2012-03-20 00:42
It is quite unbelievable how low the LibDems have sunk to get power. They are way down there with Scottish Labour who are entirely responsible for the Crown Estates selling off parks in Scotland.
2012-03-20 12:22
“It is quite unbelievable how low the LibDems have sunk to get power”.
It is also incredulous that Tavish Scott proved the level of Lib-Dem “mischief making” by leaving out that a natural extension of this view would be Scotland voting “No” ans the Islands voting “Yes” then the Islands leave the UK.
But that wouldn’t benefit Westminster, would it?
2012-03-20 16:03
Of course not, it’s a ridiculous idea. As for the Shetlands getting the Oil, presumably Orkney would claim the massive tidal machines in their waters too?
Scotland claims the Oil via the Continental Shelf International treaties signed in Geneva in 1964 and London in 1968. The 1968 treaty drew a straight line at 90degree angle from berwick to the Continental Shelf to determine which law would apply in those waters above and below the line, Scottish or English.
The line is known as Parallel 55degrees 50 North. Shetland has no such international agreements and they can stay in the UK for ever and a day and they will get no Oil and Gas revenues.
This is a dangerous game Scott and the Lib Dems are attempting to lure the Islanders into. They could fall between two stools and lose the current gains they are making from the Oil and gas.
They should show the Lib Dems what they think of them by replacing them with SNP councillors in May.
VOTE YES
2012-03-20 19:10
It is quite unbelievable how low the LibDems have sunk to get power.
Perfectly believable fur wis at’s been observin da craiturs fur years. A lowly life form.
2012-03-20 01:06
pressandjournal.co.uk/…/…
2012-03-20 01:10
I can scarcely understand the likes of Tavish Scott. Does he care about the people of Scotland at all? .. or does he only care about his future in London licking the dirt off the boots of his Tory masters.
2012-03-20 01:13
2012-03-20 19:57
2012-03-20 01:15
The LibDems were only re-elected through their “Something-better” lies of Full Fiscal Powers for Scotland. But now that LibDem Fox has been well and truly shot since the first week of 2012!
LibDem’s Law Lord Jim wallace on TV during Burn’s Night, threatened Orkney and Shetland with utter annihilation (along with the rest of Scotland) by London if they dared to use their democratic voice again in 2014 in the same way as they did in 1997.
The latest silly British Nationalist attempt to pervert Scottish democracy is to bribe Orkney with SOME of Scotland’s own sea bed rights instead of handing 100% of them to the Holyrood government.
I think silly Tavish should join Ruth Davidson’s “Conservative Friends of the Union” organisation with the Labour Party members who have offered to share a platform with David Cameron.
2012-03-20 01:30
And the ferry would take longer from the Tyne, and cost more because there would be no more subsidy – unless Tavish really thinks Westminster would pay up. And of course the roads in the rUK might be toll roads.
And that’s before you consider that the oil wouldn’t be in Shetland’s EEZ as part of the rUK. Sounds like a really brilliant deal and fully up to the standards we’ve all come to expect from Lib Dem leaders – Campbell, Stephen, Scott, Clegg, Rennie – in recent years.
2012-03-20 19:58
2012-03-20 01:33
I don’t believe any Scot, wherever they live, will appreciate being used as a political pawn by a government in London whose rhetoric stems from the simple fact that they are wetting their pants over the prospect of losing all of that worthless, worthless oil in the North Sea.
The people of the Northern Isles do have the right to self-determination. As a Scottish Nationalist that is at the very core of my political beliefs. That isn’t what Tavish Scott and his ilk are offering. They want to hold onto any part of Scotland they can until the oil runs dry. Then Orkney and Shetland can have all the self-determination they want because London will have no further use for them.
2012-03-20 08:14
2012-03-20 01:40
1) it’s more than ok for Orkney and Shetland to wish to secede from the country they are part of, but NOT for Scotland to wish to leave the UK?
2) if you have Orkney/Shetland counted separately then doesn’t it set a precedent for other areas to not remain with Scotland? What if Glasgow or Edinburgh voted no? Would they remain part of the UK?
3) If that is the case shouldn’t we open up a UK wide referendum to see who wants to be part of what country..? Berwick upon Tweed perhaps?
It’s utter garbage. And the fact they even get airtime to put forward these utterances is ridiculous. Let’s remind people of what Wrstminister planned to do beforehand and show that if they were willing to do what it takes before to keep Scottish oil, what will they do now?
2012-03-20 01:46
2012-03-20 02:56
2) This exactly the type of tactic used by the British Establishment back in the ’20s after the whole of Ireland voted for independence.
3) Just a few years back, the population of Berwick-upon-Tweed was polled and there was a strong desire to revert to Scotland. scotsman.com/…/…
2012-03-20 08:16
A can of worms!
2012-03-20 10:15
1) Orkney and Shetland might just as easily decide they want to be part of Norway.
scotsman.com/…/…
I am a born and bred Shetlander and I have always been in preference that when Scotland got their Independence that I would like greater Autonomy for Shetland as per Faroe. This was something that was promised by King James and King Christian of Denmark as per the pawning agreement.
The one issue that does need to be resolved is the truth of Shetlands constitutional status. Although pawned for 8,000 gold florins of the Rhine to the Scottish Crown. There is documented evidence of this, however there is no evidence or date for the annexing of Shetland by Scotland. This is an area that westminster will seek to exploit.
I know no Shetlander that wants to remain with London apart from the local Lib Dems. Tavish is only worried about his future as a lord lieutenant as per his father. It must be remembered he is referred to as the lairds son here
2012-03-20 19:05
If anything they would be more torn between Norway and Scotland than the UK and Scotland. Couldn’t see them not wanting to remain part of Scotland although i agree they would want more autonomy.
Just my views as a Fifer be interested to hear what the views of the people in the islands is. How pro Scottish Independence is the feeling up there? As Islanders how would they feel if Scotland broke away?
2012-03-21 09:28
The one issue that does need to be resolved is the truth of Shetlands constitutional status. Although pawned for 8,000 gold florins of the Rhine to the Scottish Crown. There is documented evidence of this, however there is no evidence or date for the annexing of Shetland by Scotland. This is an area that westminster will seek to exploit.
If there is no record of Shetland being annexed by Scotland then surely Shetland isn’t part of the UK?
Get out of that Unionists.
2012-03-20 12:35
2012-03-20 01:47
In 2008, Sandy Cluness, an independent councillor and convenor of Shetland Council, called for a Shetland Assembly with taxraising powers, and for range of services to be devolved from Edinburgh to the islands, including transport, policing, coastal protection, in-shore fisheries, further education and the arts.
Does this mean that Shetland would subsidies the ferries out of their own revenue?
The fact that I even ask that question shows how divisive this whole suggestion by Mr Scott is, and how silly.
The whole idea being put forward by the LibDem MSP is designed to play on grievances more imagined than real.
It is also about oil and is a crude attempt to separate Scotland from the oil in the northern most parts of Scotland’s territorial waters by formenting division where none exists.
I did not think any politician would sink so low but then I forgot about the LibDems. Truly they are plumbing new depths.
2012-03-20 03:15
2012-03-20 03:14
Oh, except as the last resort of centuries of colonialism.
2012-03-20 09:09
Joe Grimond quote: “The last thing the Northern Isles want is to be ruled by Glasgow trade unionists and Edinburgh lawyers”.
So better the current bunch of freebooters running london and the south east
2012-03-20 10:17
2012-03-20 12:13
Quote:
And how many people in England actually know where Orkney and Shetland are?
Very few.
last night, Monday, was the final of University Challenge and one of the questions asked: ‘Which Island in the inner hebrides has Portree as its capital?’ Answer from the eventual winners: Lewis and Harris. At least they knew that you have to put Lewis and Harris together to get an island.
Throughout this past series of University Challenge, and during the General Knowledge section of Mastermind, I have been aware that whenever a question relating to Scotland comes up nine times out of ten they cannot answer it. And these are some of the bright sparks.
2012-03-20 13:43
I didn’t even bother trying to answer it. A closed, burned and buried book for me I’m afraid.
2012-03-20 15:07
2012-03-20 13:45
And how many people in England actually know where Orkney and Shetland are? And the only reason Wastemonster knows about it is to do with oil.
Joe Grimond quote: “The last thing the Northern Isles want is to be ruled by Glasgow trade unionists and Edinburgh lawyers”.
So better the current bunch of freebooters running london and the south east
Well said, Embra Quine! Of course the sneering Tavish Scott would prefer his Northern Isles constituents to be ruled by a Westminster Tory controlled government. How else would he be able to eventually attain “ermine jaikit” status along with Wallace (of Tankerness)?
2012-03-20 03:18
Or
Remain as a part of Scotland, enjoy devolved power and a powerful position in the Scottish picture.
Going past the fact that these isles are historically Scottish there is simply no real choice there.
The desperation of the unionists is palpable.
2012-03-20 03:52
Now the McCrone cat is out the bag, and we know for sure, after John Snow’s flabbergasted interview with the FM, that it IS all about the oil.
So, now that Westminster can no longer count on wasting all the revenues on mass unemployment, the London Underground or illegal wars, there is a rash of demands for self-determination for the Northern Isles alone from those who sought to stifle self-determination for the whole of Scotland in the first place.
Time for these supporters of double standards to be booted by the electorate.
2012-03-20 12:47
2012-03-20 05:07
2012-03-20 10:21
Of course Shetland could opt to negotiate a treaty to rejoin Norway. I wonder what London would make of that.
There is a number of Shetlanders who would like to go down this route and is often spoken of in hushed tones as some of our white settlers are not to happy about this and tell us we will lose all our benefits.
We have the Prime Minister of Norway coming over for a visit to Shetland to open one of our new museums in Scalloway. A lot of us are excited about this. Same as Queen Sophie came to the islands at the opening of the museum in Lerwick.
2012-03-21 09:47
2012-03-20 13:52
Of course Shetland could opt to negotiate a treaty to rejoin Norway. I wonder what London would make of that.
You never know, maybe the Manx folk of the Isle of Man will opt to return to Scotland, of which it was once historically a part. There again, maybe Tavish Scott will then call for the seabird colonies on Rockall and The Ailsa Craig to secede to England. Sigh!
2012-03-20 06:43
Orkney and Shetland were part of Scotland when Scotland entered the union.They will be part of Scotland when we leave.Thereafter,if they want more autonomy,or reunification with rUK,or independence,th en they should be given it.Thats SNP policy and seems reasonable to me.
2012-03-20 07:48
The precedent for this enclave business was set by the UK itself when it agreed the EEZ around the Channel Islands with France. The international boundary between the UK and France goes down the middle of the English Channel and takes no account of the presence of the Channel Islands just off the coast of France. Rather than causing a disruption of the boundary with France, the Channel Islands have their own EEZ which extends no more than 12 nautical miles from their shores.
2012-03-20 19:17
The biggest effect would be the loss to Scotland of half the Pentland Firth and its huge renewable energy resource.
that would be the effect on Scotland – minor. the effect on Shetland would a disaster. anybody who has seen the Shetland Islands Council in action would testify to that.
2012-03-20 22:51
2012-03-20 07:18
2012-03-20 07:37
2012-03-20 07:40
Tavish is a bitter unionist, but the term requires clarification.
Tavish is actually a careerist politician who desires a position of power in a London centric political world. The union is a means to an end.
He is currently watching from the sidelines as his beautifully crafted fantasy career is rapidly going down the tubes.
Tavish, of course, could do the right thing and join the movement for a better society within Scotland. But that wouldn’t include a position in the House of Lords for him and that is what Tavish most desires. Make no mistake, Tavish is playing with dangerous sentiments, however outlandish they might appear to sensible people, both on the mainland and in the isles. But Tavish is prepared to play these games for the sake of his career and his desire for a position of importance in London.
The good people of Shetland will hopefully take note.
2012-03-20 12:06
So now he’s got no place either in the London nor the Scottish structure.
2012-03-20 07:40
Better ruled by the British Tories then eh?
2012-03-20 07:42
Under international supervision, its doubtful Shetland will take oil to England, it will not have a 200 mile sea limit.
Tavish is using ethnic diferances to divide Shetland from Scotland, that is not an arguement, because racially the Shetlanders are by DNA test likely to have a 1 in 10 chance of Norwegian descent, they are like most other Scots, primarily originating back to the Picts.
2012-03-20 10:25
Tavish is trying to stir a pot and it must be remembered tghat if it had not been for an independent candidate he would of been dumped in favour of the SNP. Can’t wait to get rid of the chinless wonder
2012-03-20 20:06
2012-03-20 20:24
Sheltie, am I right in thinking that although Orkney and Shetland elect LibDem MSPS and MP, when it comes to local elections it is usually Independent candidates that win through? If so, does this mean in fact they are only elected to Holyrood or Westminster because they might have more clout being part of a bigger party than and Independent would?
Independent candidates generally do win in SIC elections. Which is why the council is an ongoing shambles with no direction and less leadership. And why the ‘administration’ can never be changed. And why the Central Belt of Lerwick is promoted while the North Isles are left to wither. Essentially the ‘Lerwick Party’ is always in power. Not healthy and NOT a basis for autonomy in any way shape or form. if it is then Yell, Unst, Fetlar, Skerries and Whalsay should secede from Shetland!
2012-03-20 22:53
Although quite a few of them are card carrying or closet supporters of the lib dems. One is standing in May but as an independant.
2012-03-20 07:43
2012-03-20 07:43
We currently have a Westminster Chancellor who is screwing the North Sea Oil industry for every penny he can. If there was a real possibility for Shetlanders and Orcadians to control the oil fields, the should be agitating right now to get away from that? Yet they aren’t. Odd, that.
We call shenanigans, Tavish.
2012-03-20 07:58
The SDA stood back and watched the nonsense begin or to be ratchetted up as has been the case. Similarly, the SNP were not taking their case to the natural court of justice, the international community.
Perhaps because the marginalisation of Scotland as a nation at international level has been a strategy of Westminster for so long, the SNP has virtually no international experience at diplomatic level. Therefore they are not entirely to blame for not ‘reaching out’ to the world to assist them in their legitimate persuit.
That’s why the Council of Europe were sent a Memorandum by the SDA as well as the OSCE.
We will see what sanctions they place on the divisive actions by Westminster and their lackies ?.
2012-03-20 08:09
2012-03-20 08:13
That’s why the Council of Europe were sent a Memorandum by the SDA as well as the OSCE.
We will see what sanctions they place on the divisive actions by Westminster and their lackies ?.
Yes, we will. I’ll have a fiver on “None whatsoever”.
2012-03-20 10:11
For the SNP to get to the position it is today is remarkable and if anything, shows that the diplomacy of the party is in good health. We need to take the people with us and persuade them gently. The electorate of Scotland is sick and tired of the shouting from the rooftops , negative and accusatory politics. For the party to go down this route would be grossly counterproducti ve in my opinion.
If others wish to do this then fine, if it helps, but don’t try and drag the SNP into hurling accusations about- no matter how justified- it will only put the majority off.
2012-03-20 08:02
Another example of divide and rule is the claim that people in the borders have more in common with the people on the other side of the border than the rest of Scotland.Irrespective of the truth about that one,I would argue that those close relationships could continue after independence.
Orkney and Shetland belong to Scotland.However,if the people in those Islands wish for more autonomy,they are more likely to get it from a Scottish government than a UK government in London.It could be similar to the Aland Island that belongs to Finland but is outside of rhe EU.
It is far from certain what people want in the northern islands and the borderss.however,if politics is used as a barometer,I would point out that Winnie Ewing took many votes from islanders when she was elected four times as their MEP.Additionally the SNP yook 2044 votes in Orkney during last years election.They were also firt placed in Orkney with votes for the regional list.In the borders the SNP won all constituencies on the regional list vote.
The island people should be very cautious about remaining in the UK.It would mean that island students would not be entitled to free education.Additionally they would be charged for prescriptions,t heir council tax would increase,and their NHS would be partly privitised.The London government would use their oil to pay for borrowing used to support failed banks.I think that Tavish Scott needs to refelct on that.
2012-03-20 08:15
2012-03-20 08:51
2012-03-20 08:03
This is the dregs of lying and shameful behaviour by London, aided by shameful Scots who would rather see their own country destroyed, than let it run its own affairs.
This is nonsense, and it makes me very, very, angry that Scottish politicians are starting to play silly games like this.
Is it any wonder that nobody votes Libdems anymore.
2012-03-20 08:11
Also, the first thing Westminster thought of was to turn Shetland into a base to house Trident. What prospects.
The people of Shetland and Orkney, like the people of our other islands are not as stupid as our London politicians think they are.
London is trying to do to Scotland what they did to Ireland. Divide and rule.
They haven’t learned any lessons from Ireland at all have they?
2012-03-20 08:22
Now correct me if I’m wrong but our Tavish looked extremely pro-union back then. What’s changed?
The folk of the Shetland and Orkney Islands aren’t daft. They know a ploy when they see one and will make up their own minds on Tavish Scott’s home rule epiphany.
2012-03-20 08:22
Anyway Shetland and Orkeny is Scottish. Where would we all be in Scotland without Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham for a start!? Scotland would definetly be a poorer nation culturally.
And an independent Scotland would have to decentralise and bring government closer to all regions. Only in that way can we purse social justice and equality for all.
A federal Scotland!
2012-03-20 08:53
2012-03-20 09:52
I thought Phil Cunningham was from Northumbria. But, yes, a federal Scotland sounds good. And perhaps we could annex Northumbria, or buy it from the impoverished rump UK, so we could lay claim to Phil Cunningham?
There are two Phil Cunningham’s, one is Scottish born in Edinburgh in 1960 who was in Silly Wizard, and often duets with Aly Bain. The other was born in Cheshire and played with Bad Lieutenant. The Scottish Phil Cunningham is a surprisingly talented musician, and plays most common instruments.
en.wikipedia.org/…/…
There is however thankfully only one Tavish Scott, a very bitter man who has had his delusions of grandeur shattered by his duplicity. He would have often dreamt of following the other nonentity’s Steele and Stephen into the hallowed halls of Westminster wearing the Ermine, that was all brutally snatched away from him. The title Lord Tavish Scott of the Northern Isles would have got him very excited on occasions.
His latest out burst of malice is based on nothing more than wickedness and spite and a desire to do down Scotland that has rejected him. He follows in the tracks of the unelected Lord Caithness who has put forward an amendment to The Scotland Bill to this effect. Partition is a classic imperialist tool, and one that will come back to haunt these *********** self serving politicians.
2012-03-20 18:22
I saw some film of him in the church at West Linton, and Murray Campbell (the physics professor who runs the mediaeval band) was throwing all sorts of early music instruments at him, and he was playing the lot.
He’s extremely talented and extremely good, but it never occurred to me to be surprised about that.
2012-03-20 18:25
“Surprisingly” talented? Why would you be surprised?
This would do it for me:
Quoting Soixante-neuf:
Murray Campbell…was throwing all sorts of early music instruments at him, and he was playing the lot.
2012-03-20 08:42
2012-03-20 08:52
2012-03-20 09:14
Ahhh Tavish..in 1707 it cost them £20,000 in 2012 it seems all they need is an ermine robe.
Indeed, it must hurt him so much that Nicol stephen got a robe, but he didn’t.
Never mind Tavish, when Scotland becomes independent, you could always move to England, and do a wee bit more cringing and fawning.
2012-03-20 10:28
2012-03-20 09:38
I’m with you there Jo, it’s the last thing any of us need. Glasgow trade unionists are getting thin on the ground but there is work to be done on the Edinburgh lawyers. Let’s start with smarmy chancer and taxi enthusiast McLetchie.
2012-03-20 09:45
Maybe he like the rest of them should think about their constituents.
Please note this is a contribution from my good lady who is well versed in the SNP and it’s doings
2012-03-20 10:33
I am forming some questions I wish to put to Tavish publically in the local paper. However I expect him to do his usual and duck any awkward questions and sit on the fence as per usual
2012-03-20 11:00
2012-03-20 12:21
Pretty much everyone can agree that Westminster absolutely cannot be trusted.
2012-03-20 14:17
“Pretty much everyone can agree that Westminster absolutely cannot be trusted.”
Except ‘Scottish’ Labour!
Once a party for so many people on so many issues.
Westminster is their natural home.
Scottish ‘assembly’ is not their natural.
2012-03-20 12:03
Good to hear a voice from the north. Much has been made of the northern isles “desire” to remain in the union, so it is good to hear that you are with the rest of us in wishing Scottish independence. I hope the rest are with us too.
Good luck with asking any questions of Tavish Scott. After imposing an illegal ring road on the people of Aberdeen the coward would not face the people he “messed about” (I could think of a better way to put that but the mods have enough work to do!), he ran out of the back door.
All Tavish is thinking about here is not the good of the islands or Scotland, just hoping this wheeze will bring him his knighthood. Sticking up for the union regardless is Tavish’s plan.
Your son must be some fiddle player!
2012-03-20 10:46
The referndum is not a regional one but national and is about Scotlands future within these islands and nothing else. If both these islands voted No then there would have to be a subsequent referendum on the their own future whether to join the now confirmed independent Scotland or the rUK.
In saying that however why should their be a rule for these islands and not for any other community. Typical Unionist divide and scaremonger tactics. Utterly contemptible. What is frightening is Tavish is now coming out fighting for the people of Shetlands voice to be heard, wants autonomy and the benefits of the crown estates and oil wealth for the Shetlanders but fought with every fibre to deny people from Scotland this very right.
Why did the Shetlands and Orkneys still reurn these parties. IF anyone could answer these questions it would be much appreciated.
2012-03-20 19:29
The Shetland Times is a part of the answer as it has given the Fiberals decades of support (without of course actually coming out for them in true Liberal style) and endless free publicity. Tramish and Alisdair I’m not at Tory really Carmichel get a column each. Plus the local unionist fraternity cherry pick the ONE period of history (and not very accurate history at that!) and harp on about it endlessly. So people are very misinformed about the genuine history of Shetland – e.g. the fact that the Union caused disaster for the Shetland economy by cutting us off from our continental trading partners.
2012-03-20 10:56
2012-03-20 11:13
Shetlanders admittedly had a bad time with Scots lairdlings like Tavish Scott & Co, but then, all Scots had a bad time with lairdlings like Tavish Scott.
Had Northmavine/Delting ancestors myself.
2012-03-20 11:51
I am in Deltin with Northmavin and Wester Skeld ancesters on both sides of my family as well as Orkadian and Caithness ancesters, all dating from pre 1600’s (every chance they were all norse).
Shetland also has a large amount of Spanish decedents from the Spanish Armada, These people classify themselves as Shetlanders despite their surname (therefore you cannot claim someones nationality by their surname)
Shetland has always been the crossroads of the North Sea/ Alantic and therefore has always had a lot of different nationalities settle here. Iknow plenty of English people who have settled in my area and they are voting for independence and are a very strong voice for the support of Shetland. Those that don’t want to live here leave not long after they arrive.
Those of us who live here know what we have and have no desire to see it ruined by Wastemonster. They have done us enough damage and will continue to do so. It was Maggie who tried to get our oil fund and Europe/ Norway/ SNP who suck up for us. The people need to be reminded of that though.
There is also truth that many would like to be more like Faeroe. Faeroe had a smaller population than Shetland and was granted greater autonomy from Denmark, th saw their population grow from around 12,000 to 48,000. At the same time Shetland fell from 40,000 to 16,000 and oil brought that back up to it’s current 22,000. That is a sign of Westminter policy over the years have deprived the islands.
Roll on 2014 when we get rid of this shower of rogues and truly take our place on the world stage and once again lead the world and have the second period of enlightenment.
2012-03-20 19:31
The Shetland/Norway thing is a bit of a myth. The islands have been extensively settled by Scots since the 15th century, as the surnames and the language of their descendants show. It’s a bit like saying you’re descended from your grandpaw but not your grannie.
Shetlanders admittedly had a bad time with Scots lairdlings like Tavish Scott & Co, but then, all Scots had a bad time with lairdlings like Tavish Scott.
Had Northmavine/Delting ancestors myself.
Plenty of Shetland lairdlings too – e.g. South Aywick in East Yell was cleared by Pole Hoseason of Mossbank. Not a ‘Scottish’ name is Ossisen!
2012-03-20 11:26
The Northern Isles would stand to gain hugely from this process and so I think we could expect a strong Yes vote. Its a lot better than they will ever get staying with London rule. That means continuing marginalisation and depopulation.
Finally, London through its control of the media has always prevented Scotland from really knowing itself. When do we ever have news about Orkney or indeed any part of Scotland outside Glasgow? We could reverse that and build a much stronger economic and cultural relationship after independence.
2012-03-20 19:34
i agree the only time Shetland get a mention on the telly, seems to be UpHellyA
Which was entirely invented in the 1890s by a Lerwick marxist who hed union jack drawers! Ah, British ‘Internationalis ts’ – bless.
2012-03-20 11:27
2012-03-20 11:40
2012-03-20 11:45
2012-03-20 12:02
2012-03-20 11:57
There are no places called Shetlands or Orkneys. They are Shetland and Orkney (or Shetland Islands, etc) the main island of both groups are actually called the mainland. The smaller islands have names (all of which come from Norse with Anglicised spellings.
Just a small thing that really grates on all of us up here when the MSM and others use these terms.
Tak
Alt dað besta
2012-03-20 19:46
One comment to all posters and to NNS.
There are no places called Shetlands or Orkneys. They are Shetland and Orkney (or Shetland Islands, etc) the main island of both groups are actually called the mainland. The smaller islands have names (all of which come from Norse with Anglicised spellings.
Just a small thing that really grates on all of us up here when the MSM and others use these terms.
Tak
Alt dað besta
Hi fellow Sheltie – I wid disagree wi da ‘all’ place names – Lots o pre-norse names. Jacobsen thought 5-10% of Orkney and Shetland names had a celtic origin. see Marwick at ads.ahds.ac.uk/…/…
. Unst Yell and Fetlar is all probably pre norse, as is Sheltand itsel. Insse Catt originally, wi norse word form Cattland, reinterpreted in Iceland as Hjaltland, the Zetland, and now Shetland. Also mind dat a lot o da place name enthusiasts laek Stewart wis wirkin in a ‘British’ (ie anything but Scottish) mindset
But I DO agree the Shetlands and Orkneys thing is bloody annoying. Just wait til the Scotlands is independents. Sorry.
2012-03-20 20:04
2012-03-20 12:07
Not all surnames are Scottish (mine is) however in 1735 (approx) Shetlanders were forced to use and take Scottish and Anglicised surnames on the pain of imprisonment. The same was done for christian names. It was a way of wiping out the Norse heritage. Anyone speaking Norn was also punished. The children were only taught English and were punished for speaking Norn and then Shetland whilst at school or church. This continued upto and including the 1970’s.
I am in Deltin with Northmavin and Wester Skeld ancesters on both sides of my family as well as Orkadian and Caithness ancesters, all dating from pre 1600’s (every chance they were all norse).
Shetland also has a large amount of Spanish decedents from the Spanish Armada, These people classify themselves as Shetlanders despite their surname (therefore you cannot claim someones nationality by their surname)
Shetland has always been the crossroads of the North Sea/ Alantic and therefore has always had a lot of different nationalities settle here. Iknow plenty of English people who have settled in my area and they are voting for independence and are a very strong voice for the support of Shetland. Those that don’t want to live here leave not long after they arrive.
Those of us who live here know what we have and have no desire to see it ruined by Wastemonster. They have done us enough damage and will continue to do so. It was Maggie who tried to get our oil fund and Europe/ Norway/ SNP who suck up for us. The people need to be reminded of that though.
There is also truth that many would like to be more like Faeroe. Faeroe had a smaller population than Shetland and was granted greater autonomy from Denmark, th saw their population grow from around 12,000 to 48,000. At the same time Shetland fell from 40,000 to 16,000 and oil brought that back up to it’s current 22,000. That is a sign of Westminter policy over the years have deprived the islands.
Roll on 2014 when we get rid of this shower of rogues and truly take our place on the world stage and once again lead the world and have the second period of enlightenment.
Its good to hear the views of a Shetlander.
Whats your take on Tavish?
2012-03-20 12:37
Tavish is lucky still to be an MSP I had great hopes that 2011 would be the end of him. He is determined to be seen as the saviour of Shetland but he is responsible for some of our problems (air discount scheme, ferry contracts, fishing, etc.)
But as usual he blames everyone else rather than accept that he was responsible for these matters when in power.
To sum up Tavish…Empty vessels make most noise and that is really all he is doing trying to muddy the waters and confuse the people, whilst saving himself so he gets his ermine robe.
2012-03-20 14:27
I got back, via that wonderful Bayanne site, to where the name changed.
Ditto with the Orkney connection, North Ronaldsay & Stronsay, in my grannie’s case.
North Ronaldsay they were cleared to Eday courtesy of the Traill lairds “Improvements” in the 1840’s.
The Forth Rail Bridge was what brought them south
2012-03-20 21:42
2012-03-20 20:08
for some of our problems (air discount scheme, ferry contracts, .
The ferry which was specced when he was transport minister and which was suitable only for a short crossing, not 14 hours overnight – 2 bars, 2 restaurants and no bliddy cabins. Like Mr Scott was ever slumming it on the boat with us plebs anyway. not. And when’s he going to repay the 100’s of millions of pounds he wasted on the Edinburghs (sorry again) trams?
2012-03-20 12:44
His southern masters must be pleased with his efforts, I wonder if he has done enough to earn his ermine robe yet?
2012-03-20 12:57
I think this will back fire on him and the unionist cause.
Its interesting to hear what the Shetland people think.
My own reckoning is that Tavish is out of depth and not speaking for the people of Shetland, or consulting them before he gobs off.
I have Shetland friends and find the people take their time to make a decision.
One thing that Tavish has forgotten, is that Shetland came to the UK as a part of Scotland, it will leave that way, then it is up to the Shetlanders from their to choose what they want.
With that said Tavish will not be able to deliver the oil to his masters in London, and he is digging a bigger and bigger hole for himself.
2012-03-20 13:31
2012-03-20 13:35
Quote:
Constitutional options
The Northern Isles could seek:
1. To retain their current constitutional position within the UK and as part of Scotland but negotiate additional responsibility over key public sector areas.
2. Enhanced powers or independence from Scotland if Scotland were to vote for independence but the Northern isles voted no. The SNP’s policy at successive elections conceded the Northern Isles’ right to their own self-determination.
3. Enhanced constitutional and tax status within the UK. The Faroes provide one model with links to Denmark. Closer to home the Isle of Man and Channel Islands offer various models of island communities that constitute themselves in different ways from the rest of the UK
There’s a few things that need to be picked out of this statement.
The first thing is that here he doesn’t directly advocate that Shetland and Orkney stay with England if Scotland becomes independent. That appears to be a media invention.
Option 1 and 3 are just devolution for Shetland and Orkney within the UK, ranging from minimal devolution of public sector powers for option 1 to something akin to devo-max for option 3.
Option 2 is where the Lib-Dem sleekery raises its head.
What Tavish proposes in the first part is that if Scotland becomes independent then Shetland and Orkney should have enhanced devolved powers which is pretty similar to what he proposes for Shetland and Orkney within the UK but this is a conditon of Shetland and Orkney voting no to Scottish independence. Why can’t Shetland and Orkney have powers devolved from an independent Scotland if they vote yes? Voting yes for Scottish independence and then gaining more local powers don’t seem incompatible at all.
In the second part of option 2 Tavish proposes that if Shetland and Orkney vote no to Scottish independence then they should become independent. The logic falls down here. If the population of Shetland and Orkney prefer to be British rather than Scottish why does this mean that they want to become a country in their own right? You’ll also note that in the event of a continuing UK Tavish doesn’t propose that Shetland and Orkney become independent from the UK, only from an independent Scotland. But what if Shetland and Orkney vote for Scottish independence even if the rest of Scotland doesn’t? Shouldn’t they then become independent from the UK and why is Shetland and Orkney independence only an option if Scotland becomes independent?
It seems the Lib-Dem logic works like this:
Shetland and Orkney should have the option of independence only if Scotland becomes independent. If Scotland doesn’t become independent then neither should Shetland and Orkney.
There’s no logical consistency to Tavishes views at all. Either he believes Shetland and Orkney independence is a valid option which should apply regardless of whether Scotland breaks up the UK or he’s just playing silly games because he’s trying his best to wreck any move to Scottish independence
2012-03-20 16:43
They already have the same devolved powers that the rest of Scotland has.
Why didn’t he suggest giving them extra powers when he was in government, and why isn’t he advocating the same new powers for the presently devolved Scotland now?
Tavish is a tumshie!
Orkney and Shetland are part of Scotland! No partition!
2012-03-20 14:36
The hesitation of his MSP colleague on the Daily Politics today showed that they are choosing their words very carefully.
Do they have the authority to set out the policies and requirements of the Shetlanders on such an important matter, without their agreement? There are two years before the truth will be revealed. Before that the Northern Islander’s have now been dubbed with a particular opinion. Will they really be happy with that?
2012-03-20 15:21
Tavish has stuck his head out well above the trench and he isnt talking for the people of Shetland but his own bitter brand of unionism.
2012-03-20 16:17
2012-03-20 16:52
“The people of the Northern Isles do have the right to self-determination. As a Scottish Nationalist that is at the very core of my political beliefs. That isn’t what Tavish Scott and his ilk are offering. They want to hold onto any part of Scotland they can until the oil runs dry. Then Orkney and Shetland can have all the self-determination they want because London will have no further use for them.”
I agree with you about the right to Self determination, but you seem to be saying that all Scots have that right as long as their preferred route to it agrees with yours “Independence”
Self-determination is the principle in international law that nations have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or external interference. The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, or what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or even full assimilation. Neither does it state what the delimitation between nations should be — or even what constitutes a nation. In fact, there are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination. Moreover, self-determination is just one of many principles applied to determining international borders.
The key phrase is:” whether it be by independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or even full assimilation.”
The people of Scotland voted for one route (devolution) over ten years ago after the disintegration of the Westminster system.
Unfortunately devolution (a quasi federal system) was not the answer. Large areas of the UK were still left with their aspirations unfulfilled.
2012-03-20 17:03
2012-03-20 17:14
“It is true that the people voted for devolution, but they did not freely choose this state as no other forms of government (other than the status quo) were (or ever have been) offered to them.”
Careful HB, you almost agreed with me there. I was pointing out that devolution had failed.
Are you saying that the upcoming referendum is another “NON CHOICE” by any chance?
2012-03-20 18:54
2012-03-20 17:02
“I agree with what you say J Wil.
Tavish has stuck his head out well above the trench and he isnt talking for the people of Shetland but his own bitter brand of unionism.”
How can you possibly know that Angus? It is quite likely IN MY OPINION that Tavish and Liam are correct. Everyone in Scotland who has a vote in the referendum has an opinion of the best route to self determination.
2012-03-20 20:48
Angus 2012-03-20 15:21
“I agree with what you say J Wil.
Tavish has stuck his head out well above the trench and he isnt talking for the people of Shetland but his own bitter brand of unionism.”
How can you possibly know that Angus? It is quite likely IN MY OPINION that Tavish and Liam are correct. Everyone in Scotland who has a vote in the referendum has an opinion of the best route to self determination.
I have been to Shetland many times and the people are generally very relaxed about politics and prefer Scotland to England. There may be a case where they wish for self determination, but Tavish is a staunch unionist who has not consulted ‘his’ people prior to his statements.
2012-03-20 17:45
Different Parts of Scotland able to decide seperately whether they want independence or not, what a fascinating precedent that would set would it not?
Imagine in 5 years time Northern Ireland holds a referendum on remaing part of the UK or joining the Republic of Ireland, there is a fair to middling chance that 4 of the 6 counties would vote to join the republic.
2012-03-20 17:46
2012-03-20 19:28
“aw, no again exel, no again. Are you a Libdem bot posting the same Wiki entry over and over again :-)”
Have a read at this one then “cat”
From: “That’s the trouble with devo-max. It works”. by Ronnie Smith: Scottish Review 20 March 2012.
My favourite quote from it is: “All of this is what happens when the combined forces of a country’s political leadership close their eyes and hope that they can solve complex constitutional issues reactively and entirely to suit themselves. Devo-max probably gives most people involved in the debate on the constitutional future of Scotland most of what they want and it probably provides the best blueprint for a sustainable United Kingdom.”
“ The problem with devo-max is that it makes sense. Does anyone think that our great and good will easily understand and accept this? They can’t even reform the House of Lords.”
2012-03-20 20:33
it probably provides the best blueprint for a sustainable United Kingdom.
That begs the question of whether the UK should be sustained.
2012-03-20 18:21
Tavish Scott is a career politician who has seen his options disapear.I can well understand why he believes that his personal needs are likely to be met by staying part of the UK.However,it is a selfish view and not one that is likely to be in the interests of his constituents.
2012-03-20 18:32
😉
2012-03-20 18:36
2012-03-20 18:42
Of course for Westminster, its all about the oil, and the whisky, and the renewables, and a place to put stuff that glows in the dark, and…
2012-03-20 20:14
2012-03-20 19:02
Quote:
However, even under the hypothetical circumstance that this occurred, Westminster wouldn’t be able to retain control of the oil fields anyway, so ya boo sux. These matters are regulated by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, to which the UK is a signatory. International law specifies that a state controls the continental shelf and associated mineral and fishing rights up to 200 nautical miles (230 miles or 370 km) off its shores. When another state possesses an island within the continental shelf of this state, special rules apply
2012-03-20 19:12
I love the wording “remain part of the UK” I’m sorry but if Scotland leaves there is no “UK” the act of union would be nullified which means all deals are off.
Heck we could start our own new Union with Wales and Northern Ireland if we wanted.
2012-03-20 19:37
If Tavish and Liam McArthur are doing this, then fair enough. The trouble with Tavish is that it is fairly well understood from observers that he has ambitions to prosper in his political career. Add this to the fact that he displays support for the Union, then it’s difficult not to form the opinion that he’s just being bitter and hoping that his London masters will look favourably on him for a gong and that ermine cloak that he soooo dearly aspires to.
It will be interesting to see what he says in the following days. If he is clever, he will try to carve out a position that will ensure a role for him in a post independence Scotland. If he’s after the ermine robe, expect him to say even more devisive things.
2012-03-21 09:15
2012-03-20 20:15
Perhaps that has given them a feeling of invulnerability and persuaded them that they can do the same again, but, if that is the case, I would like to hear it from their own mouths and not just from their elected representative who may be trying to make political capital for his own failed image.
2012-03-20 21:13
craigmurray.org.uk/…/…
www.ejil.org/pdfs/12/1/505.pdf
2012-03-20 22:39
It is typical Westminster nonsense.
One aspect that is very important to remember, is that it was a Scottish Labour MP, none other than Henry McLeish, who as an MP at Westminster, introduced the change order, which was never debated, and merely signed off in the house of Lords. Good old ‘Scottish’ Labour.
Ahhh yes, they change the maritime boundary to benefit England, then wonder why Scotland wants independence.
2012-03-20 23:57
Do not rush to overturn this approach.
The good burghers of Berwick may decide to re-join the independent nation of Scotland that they have always really been a part of. If so, a redrawing, applying the same principles, of the boundary line from the mouth of the Tweed will bring all of the North Sea gas fields under Scottish management.
It is possible that the northeastern corner of Norfolk may also throw off the Westminster yoke.
2012-03-21 09:26
If not they should have one and stand in elections.
The free publicity would be worth a fortune and the election results could be interesting. We could then go on to campaign for the restoration of the old border at Hadrian’s Wall.
2012-03-20 22:25
Garth: before
photos.shetland-museum.org.uk/…/
Garth: after
photos.shetland-museum.org.uk/…/
And
South Aywick
Lumbister
Vollister
Kirkabister
Burraness
West-a-firth
Veegon
Burraness
Heatherdale
Just in Yell. Multiply.
books.google.co.uk/…/…
The Economic Trials And Tribulations Of British Rule
The Union of the Scottish and English Parliaments in 1707 and the subsequent introduction of a heavy tax on imported salt brought an end to Dutch influence and control of the herring trade, and even greater economic hardship to the local populace. However, some landlords seized the opportunity to take over the trade and a new, ruthless, trading class was born.
www.saxavord.com/…/
2012-03-20 22:56
The Scots Independent has publicised the plotting of the mandarins as they laid plans to thwart moves towards an Independent Scotland in the 1970’s.
Shoot the Unionist Fox. Get European Election monitors to witness the BBC’s antics.
2012-03-20 23:40
Scotland bought the islands from Norway
Its a myth they are descended from vikings
although there is Viking blood in the Islands, Dna analysis suggests that the
majority are of Celtic Origin.
This is the usual Unionist scare stories
trying to suggest that the islands (and the oil) will stay with the uk.
2012-03-21 00:09
Please think about how your comments will be perceived by our friends in the northern Isles. I’m sure there are enough viking genes in the population to celebrate such a fact.
I’m sorry but I would recommend NNS pulls the plug on such a comment.
2012-03-21 09:06
2) There is a good mix of DNA in the islands – actually there is a good mix of DNA on the mainland too.
3) Tavish is mischief making. The islanders don’t want to be in a rUK. Fly to England for increasingly privatised healthcare, fly to England to spend thousands on a university education? It would be madness. The first choice is greater autonomy within Scotland. Something Alex has said he is very amenable to.
4) There isn’t a problem but Tavish would like there to be one and he would certainly like the rest of the UK to think there is one.
2012-03-21 02:33
But then the realisation came that the International principle was that “Nations” had the right to self-determination -m Yorkshire was not a antion. When it was finally seen that Scotland was a Nation and not just a football team at Hampden or Wembley, the we were ready for the change in our benighted constitutional arrangements. O and S have no right to claim self-determination any more then Glasgow, Edinburgh – or even Orkney – have.
2012-03-21 07:52
Orkney and Shetland are owned by Scotland
Scotland bought the islands from Norway
Its a myth they are descended from vikings
although there is Viking blood in the Islands, Dna analysis suggests that the
majority are of Celtic Origin.
This is the usual Unionist scare stories
trying to suggest that the islands (and the oil) will stay with the uk.
I dont think Shetlanders would agree with that. Scotland doesnt own them, they are a part of Scotland.
Shetland came to the UK as a part of Scotland, and it will leave the union that way, that will be recognised under international law. Whether they have a referendum to be part of Scotland or not is really up to the Shetlanders themselves, but I know they would rather be Scottish than a part of England.
You are actually not far off about the DNA, which surprised me when I saw it a couple of years ago, the Shetlands were colonised by Norway, and they are as a population about 10% Norwegian, there is some Spanish in them from the Armada, but the overwhelming ethnic group is the Picts, who are a common denominator amongst the people of Scotland, especially in the North and East coast of Scotland.
The SNP should get talking to the Shetlanders or even put out a survey to each household to gauge their views.
Somehow, I dont think many will agree with Tavish’s new UK.
2012-03-21 08:08
Regarding Tavish Scott; it would be interesting and perhaps an idea for NNS or someone to publish a profile of him. He seems to be a man of contradictions. In no particular order; A big house in Edinburgh, failed career, desires a peerage, controversial views on Shetland and Scotland. We would better understand his motives if a pen portrait of him was available.
Angus is spot on; the people of Shetland need to have their voices heard and not via Tavish. The Shetland Times is a good vehicle for this.
Liam McArthur needs to be contacted by all to clarify his position on this.
www.liammcarthurmsp.org.uk/
You will note from Liam’s web site that he appears not to be a native Orcadian. It’s also interesting to see that he is a typical career politician and has followed the usual path. Perhaps he is feeling bitter about the demise of the Lib Dems.
Send Liam an email.
2012-03-21 08:40
2012-03-21 09:25
It was the Labour MSP Home-Robertson who rented a flat from his son. Strangely the son bought the flat for some 70k cash when he was 17 years old!
2012-03-21 09:49
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